So they included Lingard, Diallo and Mata on the wings but no Pogba. Huh.
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran are here to talk about a frustrating 2 points dropped at Crystal Palace. They then discuss the regeneration of Old Trafford. Finally, Nik is joined by special guest Michael Statham from the Football Oranje podcast - who gives us a more in depth look at our EL opposition FC Twente, and then runs through the (many) Dutch connections currently at United.
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So they included Lingard, Diallo and Mata on the wings but no Pogba. Huh.
Not --> just <-- down to Ole. I would go as far as saying he is probably the biggest factor. Other factors would be (in no specific order)
- a lift after the end of dark times under Mourinho who I think had a very negative effect on many players
- pragmatic way of playing in a way that suited the skillset of many available players (looking at Ole's interim time)
- going for a very transitionbased playstyle and that it took teams quite a while to realise, they will be punished badly when having a go at us
- giving the club a new inner structure with DOF and executing a new and more straight transfer strategy
- having some luck with getting rid of players (i.e. Sanchez and Lukaku)
- good fortune with transfers bedding in very fastly and with no major issues (except for DVB I guess)
- being successful helped obviously to calm the environment and being successful is just as much down to the team as it is down to Ole
--- success was connected to Brunos impact (exceeding expectations by factor 100)
--- success was helped by first corona break which brought us Rashford back and gave Matic a needed break
--- success last season was helped by being mostly injury free and able to play something close to the strongest eleven in most matches
--- success was aided by competitors going through some issues like Liverpool, Tottenham and Chelsea
I really can't emphasize enough, that I don't want to take something away from Ole. He was the right man at the right time and I am more than grateful that he sticked to his plan despite all troubles. But some of the aforementioned factors would have been there no matter who would have taken over. Some!
What are you arguing exactly? I honestly don't get it.
You posited in your post that if Arteta had the resources of Ole, he'd have liked to have gotten AWB and Maguire. My issue with that line of logic is, he did have the resources to get at least one of those players, but chose to spend it in a cack-handed way. That is on him. I'm not sure where Ole comes into it.
Do you think Ole would have liked a DM to go with Sancho and Varane this summer? Don't you think he'd have liked Sancho last summer, and Bruno the summer before that? Do you think the plan Ole envisaged last season involved getting Cavani months after he was first available on deadline day which meant he couldn't even start playing for us until late October? Shit happens, and Ole hasn't exactly been backed to the same extent as the two managers before him. He's played the cards he's been dealt with and still has gotten this squad in to the Top 4 in successive seasons.
Management is about the deployment of your resources, and on that front, Ole has been able to maximise those resources, both internally and externally. When Bruno came in, there were question marks over whether he would transition well to the league from Portugal. Maguire was seen as a joke figure, the man who only knew relegation etc, and a legitimate figure of fun for opposition fans because of his fee - something he had no control over. AWB had just 12-15 months of professional experience, and James 18 months. None of those guys were in any way straightforward choices for a club like Utd. Even now, there's a vocal minority of idiots who don't rate them despite everything they've done to improve us from where we were. And then, there's the internal resources: Shaw and Fred have gone from borderline joke figures to legitimate first teamers. Rashford, Pogba, and Martial have had the best seasons of their careers under him. Greenwood's development was impeccably handled. Likewise McTominay's. He has brought through kids, even someone as unfashionable as Williams. Can we honestly say the same for Arteta? Other than maybe the parallels with the kids, we can't IMO.
Identifying the right players is a skill and goes way beyond what they do on the pitch. I can't believe I have to spell it out but these guys are not robots and Ole is managing men as well as players. He targets them on the basis of their human qualities first and foremost. He chose to build around some of the talents we had at the club and discarded the others who didn't fit. This has nothing to do with tactics, etc. It's just a question of brass and bottle. Jose was a coward who kept kicking the can further and further down the road when it came to rebuilding the squad. He just wanted to buy and buy until he eventually got it right. Ole was the only one who had the bottle to risk it all in that first full season of his. That deserves credit, even if it might have ultimately cost him his job that season.
So no, it wasn't a case of Ole going for the obvious course of action. He made the massive call on letting Lukaku go and focusing on Greenwood. He chose to let Sanchez leave and he opted to replace Young and Valencia with Shaw and AWB, among other decisions that summer. Most of those were not easy decisions. He let close to 7-8 players go in that first summer of his and only brought 3 players in. In the short term those who he let go of could easily have done a job to ensure we got Top 4, but he opted to risk it.
Didn't clubs have severe injury issues at the time, think I recall both Chelsea and Tottenham having big injury issues and it helped them immensely having a break. While we were on a run of fantastic results and our form was great pre lockdown 1. I actually think it hindered us as it gave other teams more of an advantage.
We have been one of the worst clubs in recent history for having awful injuries to players and sicknotes who get a nosebleed and feck off to the physio for a month or two. Our fitness and injury record has vastly improved since Ole joined. That is a positive, not a negative.
Agree with this, Tottenham was self inflicted employing Jose in the first place. As was Chelsea for employing a novice in Lampard and signing 200 players in the Summer. We were lucky with Liverpool last year though agreed.
I didn’t mean you in general sorry. I just feel some criticise him anyway. Yeah his signings have been good for me. Not all of them hits but definitely fixing the right places while getting rid of deadwood. Also Dalot was signed by Jose
Yeah you might be right. Difficult to say. But that the break helped ther teams, doesn't negate, that it helped us as well. But you are right, we have been in good form before the break. Early days of Bruno, iirc.
Come on...
Nobody argued, it would be a negative but Ole benefitted from a mostly healthy squad. Whether he played a part in setting it up, maybe, I don't know. I certainly know I haven't seen any articles about it. Therefor I give credit to the physio department for a great job even greater considering the schedule. And we know Ole isn't notorious for rotating.Encourage anyone who wants to know more about how Solskjaer manages behind the scenes, gossip on Hererra, or stories about Keano, to give this a listen:
6 is average, 6.75 is just above average. Saying Maguire is under 8 or 9, is just wrong. When you rate a transfer, you don't rate it the same way you rate a match performance.
Maguire has been very consistent, and what he's brought to the club in consistency, quality and leadership is much more than your 6.75.
If you think 1-10 is too hard without digits, rather use 1-100. You're saying that Maguire has been 67,5 out of a 100, as a transfer. You really think that?
And AWB under 6 is just criminal. Sure, he isn't the best going forward, but he's fecking solid defensively, which is his main job.
Good points about it has to always feel right
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That is not true
This is some effort on your part to downplay OGS role in trying to get the best out of Pogba eh?
Youve done a lot in this thread to try and downplay a lot of what Ole has done with this club and team, 'like' youre on a mission to respond to any post that even pushes any praise towards him.
It would be like me saying, Pep is no genius, all hes doing is getting his players to pass and press. Everybody on the caf discussed doing thaat and would do the same.
Also Pogba on the left of a midfield three for Juve is different to Pogba in a free role starting from the left wing for United with essentially three other midfielders surrounding him. Its completely different
I have been critical of Ole at times in the past, but it's fair to say that his recruitment has been very good. He's identified the type and calibre of players that we needed, and we look the better for it. For the first time in years, our transfer policy doesn't look scatter gun.
I am just one guy with an opinion on an internet forum, am I not? I mean, you seemingly are keeping tabs on my activities, how is that? I am happy to admit, that sometimes I feel triggered by some of the stuff I read on here. But how is that different to most of the other people hereThis is some effort on your part to downplay OGS role in trying to get the best out of Pogba eh?
Youve done a lot in this thread to try and downplay a lot of what Ole has done with this club and team, 'like' youre on a mission to respond to any post that even pushes any praise towards him.
It would be like me saying, Pep is no genius, all hes doing is getting his players to pass and press. Everybody on the caf discussed doing thaat and would do the same.
Also Pogba on the left of a midfield three for Juve is different to Pogba in a free role starting from the left wing for United with essentially three other midfielders surrounding him. Its completely different
? To all the guys who jump around here defending the manager against even the slightest form of not-well articulated criticism or controversial new threads and using every little snippet of stats to rub it into the OleOuters just to row back one post later "wasn't directed to you, just in general".. Look at this conflict here, my statement was Ole did a good to very good job in recruiting. This is me giving him credit ffs but the reactions seem like I would have claimed his IQ is below 70.
I get it, some of you are traumatized, but we have to leave it behind. Start the healing. Accept different opinions, discuss if you want, don't discuss if you don't want. The time to fight will be back one day after a bad result, be rested for that.
And by the way: I would be interested to know, what the fundamental differences are when playing on the left for Juve and United. I mean, I consider myself to have a relatively good understanding on the football world, and I would agree, there are differences of course but even if the starting positions might differ, the spaces he pops up are pretty similar, just like the actions he provides. Completely different is pushing it - But I guess agree to disagree, right - I am sure you just phrased it like that to prove a point. Hope it worked.
Thanks for the constructive reply. You are right, using a scale 1-100 is easier on the eye. Maybe I have to specify the ratings once more, it isn't a rating of the transfer but a rating for me to be used to measure the capabilities of a manager transfer wise. Thats why for me price plays a role, age, contract situation, deal length and so on. It is about how are realistic expectations met.
Under this light, I can tell that 60 for me isn't average. 50 would mean a transfer worked out just well as a reasonable positive observer could expect. 60 means it worked out even better than expected, 40 not as good as expected.
Plus: These ratings can change during the time the player is active for us. That means I haven't the slightest issues to rate for example AWB higher if he really improves his attacking game (which I think, he is capable of) or if he gives us 10 years of reliable service.
Same goes for Maguire, I agree with you, he exceeded my expectations and I think it is great that he is a reliable performer for most of the time here. But he came with a huge pricetag and, for me, he didn't had a great start last season and he is just now starting to contribute with goals from set pieces. Thats why I rate him in a way, that seems low to you.
Look, I want this system to be able to rate all players/transfers - how am I going to give Maguire an 8 or 9 for two years with that price tag, when I want to use the same scale to rate for example Vidic, who came for peanuts and went on to become one of the greatest United defenders ever?
Hope that made it a bit clearer, didn't want to make the players look worse than they are, I consider AWB and Maguire to be mainstays in the team for quite some time and their contributions have been very valuable.
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Well, you are very prominent in this thread. And I like discussion so id never take away your right to post what you want even if I disagree with itI am just one guy with an opinion on an internet forum, am I not? I mean, you seemingly are keeping tabs on my activities, how is that? I am happy to admit, that sometimes I feel triggered by some of the stuff I read on here. But how is that different to most of the other people here
Look at this conflict here, my statement was Ole did a good to very good job in recruiting. This is me giving him credit ffs but the reactions seem like I would have claimed his IQ is below 70.
I get it, some of you are traumatized, but we have to leave it behind. Start the healing. Accept different opinions, discuss if you want, don't discuss if you don't want. The time to fight will be back one day after a bad result, be rested for that.
And by the way: I would be interested to know, what the fundamental differences are when playing on the left for Juve and United. I mean, I consider myself to have a relatively good understanding on the football world, and I would agree, there are differences of course but even if the starting positions might differ, the spaces he pops up are pretty similar, just like the actions he provides. Completely different is pushing it - But I guess agree to disagree, right - I am sure you just phrased it like that to prove a point. Hope it worked.
For example you praised ole for using greenwood but then again, look at your comments regarding Shaw, you've basically put Shaw's form down to Telles being bought (but omitting who was manager and decided we needed competition for that position)
Regarding Pogba, look at the freedom and restrictions he would have in comparison to the two teams
Granted I didn't watch every minute of every Juventus game and majority of what I saw was a left of three (towards his latter stuff under Conte)
But for United you can see freedom of not having to stick to wide left. That is illustrated by goals and assists in 2021
His assist to Mason, his assist to Bruno, then his goal vs Fulham and his goal v West Ham
He's essentially given freedom in front of Fred and McT of being left middle or right with Bruno making the runs ahead (and the base behind him)
I'm still wondering why Ole went away from that in the Europa final
Shaw: I think, that is a very ungenerous interpretation of what I said. I mean Greenwood was an 17 year old attacker, coming onto the scene. Luke is way longer in that environment, so I think, it is natural to look at it differently. But, to make it as clear as possible: whether Luke is somebody who is very positively effected by a very cosy and comfy environment or Shaw is somebody who is very badly effected by a very hostile one, Ole did well to provide what he needed to stabilize himself and to come closer to the potential we have seen when we bought him. I mentioned Telles only because I think, Shaw made a bigger step in the 2020/2021 season than in the season before. For me the most prominent factor there is Telles, but of course other reasons are possible as well.
Pogba: For Juve "left of three" wasn't him being on the wing as well. He started in the left halfspace in front of Pirlo and mostly next to Vidal or Marchisio. From there, one of the 8s was needed to join the attack while the other supported Pirlo somewhat, who was also supported by Juve's back-3. So while Pogba at Juve started mostly in a left halfspace to roam forward, at United in the relevant games he started more wide but drifted infield to occupy mostly the same space as with Juve. Different formation of course so yeah, it isn't the same thing but it isn't fundamentally different neither. I think, it is great that we tried something, to a) take away responsibility defensively and b) position him closer to opposition goal where his skills (vision, passing, ball carrying) work to a great effect. Lets see how long it works and how other teams will try to close that gap. Could be by attacking more down his side with numbers so he is pushed back. On the other hand we have a stable midfield plus Shaw and CBs to render that useless as well. Potentially great times ahead.
European Final: I am puzzled about that as well... played his cards the wrong way that night. Either go for either Rashford or Pogba that night to be able to increase pressure by subbing a player of such quality later in the game, or go agressively for the kill in the first 45minutes, but we were way too tame for that. Hopefully everybody learned a painful lesson that night...
Should have spent 2-3x as much.
Yeah, great work. Each signing has proven to be good except for Donny and the new lads but with Ole's track record I think they'll do well over the next few years.
Doing a great job despite the Glazers not backing him in the market. Defying the odds.
I'd throw James in the not so good category also.
He was a cheap punt, paid for with the change Ed found between the cushions of the boardroom couch.
What the numbers don't take into consideration:
1. Inflation.
2. The obligatory United tax.
3. Sales.
4. Length of management.
5. United's position when Ole took over.
The real story here is that Ole has an excellent transfer record and improves annually. And if you adjust for inflation and netspend, then his spending is not particularly high for a United coach. Didn't someone in here do the math and find that it was lower than Mourinho's and roughly on par with Van Gaal?
Ultimately, these single stats are pointless. It's like looking at these lists of the highest spending managers of all time. No shit, most of them are still managing today... Gee, I wonder why. Now, excuse me while I try to buy a nice house for 200 dollars and a jar of pickles.
I’m a big Ole fan but this almost feels like you’re arguing against him. Sales? Is this the 1.5m we got for Fosu-Mensah? The 2.2m we got for Darmian? Who forced us to pay the imaginary United tax? Did we not have the option to say that’s not a good deal and pull out? Length of management? He joined in 2018 - is 421m really that small an amount to spend over 3 years? 1 and 5 I think are both really good points.
What he needs to fix with our team is wasting chances in the first 15-20 mins or sometimes even the whole first half.
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United tax is absolutely a thing. What are we gonna do? Not buy anyone because clubs jack up the price when we are involved?
We got £73m for Lukaku to Inter (+£4-5m more now with the sell on clause).
And £119m from that total price is for players that just joined and haven't had the chance to impact a season.
Which means Ole over 2.5 seasons have spent ~£302m total, or ~£221m net spend, to not win any trophies. (Though you could easily argue that Pellistri/Amad (£47m of that?) were investments for the future that were not expected to kick on in the previous season, but might save us double or triple that in the future for established players)
He has now spent at least another £119m (Sancho/Varane) to help secure trophies in the coming seasons, but they shouldn't really be counted in the sum spent "failing" to bring trophies up to this point.
Edit: Also worth noting that most of the sums above that Football Daily operates with includes the full fee if all additional clauses kick in, which they might not.
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How many of the signings would you say we can gain a profit from if we ever sold them on in the future? I reckon obviously Fernandes has doubled/tripled in price… Maguire maybe we could get similar for or a bit more…. I think we’ll lose money on James, telles, van de beek… obvs I don’t want us to sell any of the players though, just wanted to know people’s views on who they think we’ve improved the price tags off.
As per Athletic, who posted an article on James today, Dan James is valued at atleast 25m.
I think the reason why we may not get back 12-15m back for Telles is because of how market has gone done across Europe due to COVID.
We will make significant profits on James and Telles if we sell them now. VDB maybe not rightaway, but a year hence.
I'd say pretty much all of them.
The only ones that may not fetch the same fee or higher right now would maybe be AWB (I reckon he's valued at about £40m right now, we paid 50). But he's improving all the time, he's getting good going forward, but needs to improve his awareness in defense for crosses against. Hopefully playing with Varane will help him with this. (And Sancho should unlock him even more going forward.)
And possibly VdB, though he is still easily a £30m player being young and talented, even if he maybe doesn't fit into our playing style. (I've got hopes for him to kick on this season.)
If Telles is the reason Luke Shaw has knuckled down and unlocked his potential he's worth at least £100m and should be shackled up and locked away in a dungeon until Luke is finished and ready to retire.
AWB would probably fetch around the same right now because he has shown, that he can handle playing for a big club. But I guess it would be pretty difficult to get that kind of money from somewhere, don't think he has the reputation for international suitors and in England, City have Walker, Chelsea Reece James and Pool TAA that most people would consider as at least equally as good options.
Maguire's value has probably risen as well even though he never was at 80 million but around 40-50 (when we bought him) iirc. Should be around 60-65 now but 80 - I am pretty sure nobody would pay that kind of money for him.
DVB's value still stable, I guess, but another season like the last one, and we could lose quite a bit when selling him.
Bruno is a sure thing, with his output and mentality.
James value has definitely risen.
Telles is difficult to say, think we could get 25million for him but wouldn't bank too much on it. He hasn't shown a lot in his time here and even a year ago, it was a bit odd, that there were no other suitors.
Sancho is more a less a sure thing to conserve his value being so young and promising.
Varane is the opposite of Maguire I think, we got him for less than his market value, didn't we.
Inflation and state of club before entry are interesting aspects, pretty difficult to measure though. But more or less applicable to all managers in all clubs. The United tax only applies when we act overly stupid I think, wasn't Woody's brightest moment when he announced the enormous size of our warchest back in the day just to be taken literally
I think, we didn't really got the United tax on any actual transfer, who do you have in mind? James was more or less fair, For AWB we overpaid a bit but no reason to consider Arsenal or Spurs or Chelsea would have gotten him cheaper. Same for Maguire, sure overpaid but due to Leicester being in such a comfortable position. Bruno and Telles were good deals, Sancho and Varane as well.
Think we need a thread dedicated to his best quotes
Good read. Check comments on Reddit if anyone has issue with original site
How much money we might get if we sell the players Ole has bought is easily the worst way to gauge how much a player has developed/improved.
I liked this as well. Looking after the boys, while letting everyone else exactly what he thinks about their criticism.
EDIT: Added the quote Ole's talking about
Thanks for the quote, didn't know that piece of wisdom, it certainly is a healthy way of dealing with adversities while being in the public eye. I guess though, that in the context of football, criticism in general is an indicator of attention and I think also, people criticizing stuff show they are engaged. Which I cannot imagine being a bad thing at all. As everywhere, the dose makes the poison.
Undebatable that certain phenomena happening especially in the anonymity of the internet there are way too far away from criticism but merely acts of verbal violence.
I like Ole using this powerful quote to deliver a message without speaking himself, very classy but still powerful conduct in my opinion.
Mediocre manager.
Wasting our time.
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