Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

[R'hllor]

Dunno why people connect Ole`s future to top 4 thing, oh noes no top 4, its most bullshit line ever drawn that separates acceptable and not. Werent we with City on same points when we ended up being 5th and people reacted like we were 16th with 30 points between us, so weird.

I swear if top 10 was a thing that gets in CL groups, you fecks wouldnt mind us being 10th as long we get in.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Actually the inital argument was that Pep nor Pochetino would do a better than Ole, which doesnt necessarily includes winning the league. Which I think shows how blind some people are regarding Ole.

No one objective would even start a serious discussion on Ole vs Pep. Thats how far away they are. We can like Ole all we want but he doesn’t even sit at the same table that Pep, thinking otherwise borders on blind fanaticism.

This Pep vs Ole comparison is actually started by the poster who doesn't rate Ole to suit their argument, because that's the easiest way to use in argument if you are against Ole. Like what you said, those people who don't rate Ole are silly to even started making this discussion.

Pep is miles above Ole and different class, that's no brainer. However, Some manager will need a certain condition, can we meet Pep's condition? That's questionable when you see our board didn't back Ole last summer.

And also come on! The bold mark below doesn't say about win the league so I wasn't only talking about win the league but also talking about to achieve more with this current squad.

The argument is not about who’s the better manager but instead whether better manager like Pep can win it with the current squad we have right now. If 78 points is the maximum Pep can achieve with better squad (16/17), how can he achieve more with this our current squad?

End of the day this squad is still very young squad, any manager still needs time to develop and build the squad. And it will take longer for any manager if the board decide to slow down the progress like our last summer window by not giving the manager the player to improve his XI.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

Was the question limited to one season or something? If so my mistake, I understanded it as Pep wouldn't have done a better job than Ole, such as wouldn't have done a better job than him in the last 2 and a half years after spending 300M. Which I think is safe to say yes he would have.

Finally we agree, I think it was misunderstanding thats all.

I might be wrong as well, but I think that was the gist of the argument.
"Would he do better with _this_ squad?" Nah.
"Would he do better if he got to build his own squad at Man United?" Most likely.

Also, I think Pep would need more than 300m to improve the squad left behind by Mou to his standards. He would also totally wreck the board, Ed and the club in public if he suffered a transfer window like the one we had this summer. But that's a different discussion altogether.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

Do you imply that Donny lied about Ole convincing him to join the club? Why would he do that?

Ole may have well have spoke to him. Don't think for a second that implies he wanted him. Ole probably told by board you can forget Grealish this is as good as you're getting this window.

Why else would he freeze him out? Makes no sense. Why would any manager do that to a player they were desperate to sign?

 

[SAFMUTD]

In regards to Ole, we have played better football for extended periods several times. He's shown he is very much capable of making this team play better. With better depth and a higher floor, we'd be able to sustain those spells for longer.

You are right, I correctly myself. We havent been able to consistently, consistently being the key word here, perform better.

I agree better depth would definitely help, but I dont think that would suddenly solve our problems I think Ole's ceiling doesnt reach what we should aim in order to beat an almost unlimited funding Pep coached City team.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

Surely the question is whether Pep would have done better with this current United squad if he’d been in charge of them for 2.5 years?

Which shows how difficult and silly that question is. Pep would implode spectacularly if he had to deal with the players we have (and had) in our squad long before two years had passed.
If he got to build his own squad in 2,5 years is something completely different.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

You are right, I correctly myself. We havent been able to consistently, consistently being the key word here, perform better.

I agree better depth would definitely help, but I dont think that would suddenly solve our problems I think Ole's ceiling doesnt reach what we should aim in order to beat an almost unlimited funding Pep coached City team.

I think we're at a point where we generally agree about most things. I can only think about 1 manager at the moment who can take on Pep with unlimited petrofunds, and he only managed it for two seasons. There might be others out there who are capable as well, but I can't name them.

 

[SAFMUTD]

This Pep vs Ole comparison is actually started by the poster who doesn't rate Ole to suit their argument, because that's the easiest way to use in argument if you are against Ole. Like what you said, those people who don't rate Ole are silly to even started making this discussion.

Pep is miles above Ole and different class, that's no brainer. However, Some manager will need a certain condition, can we meet Pep's condition? That's questionable when you see our board didn't back Ole last summer.

And also come on! The bold mark below doesn't say about win the league so I wasn't only talking about win the league but also talking about to achieve more with this current squad.

I agree with you, I think you are referring, as Skare Willoch before, to Pep doing better in just 1 season rather than doing better at all.

If its in one season yes is debatable, since Pep's specific set up is special and needs some time for players to get used to it, when it clicks it clicks but before that they produce major feck ups specially in the defense. Thats why I think that City team was so underwhelming in Pep first season. But if its overall I think its fair easy to assume that Pep would do better.

 

[SAFMUTD]

I think we're at a point where we generally agree about most things. I can only think about 1 manager at the moment who can take on Pep with unlimited petrofunds, and he only managed it for two seasons. There might be others out there who are capable as well, but I can't name them.

Its no easy task but I think we should take the gamble and risk.

Anyway not much further to discuss I guess haha, good chat mate, cheers!

 

[Bilbo]

Football might be unpredictable but United over the past 8 years have been nothing but predictable. 6 out of 7 seasons we finished with something between 64 and 70 points, with one season as an outlier where our results significantly exceeded the quality of the performances, much like this season. It's pretty much our level and there's very little to suggest it's about to change for the foreseeable future. Far more likely is that we'll be plodding along as always, buying players who turn out be underwhelming and fighting for top 4 with points totals around 70.

Nobody predicted that we had a chance of finishing 2nd this season, or for a brief period actually looked like we were in a title race. Nobody. Football is rarely predictable, and I couldn't care less about points totals really.

I'll just never understand the viewpoint in bold. This season and last, for me anyway, have been pretty great. Phrases like that just make you sound bored of football. 90% of it is hope. If you don't have that then I don't see the point.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

Its no easy task but I think we should take the gamble and risk.

Anyway not much further to discuss I guess haha, good chat mate, cheers!

... and I think that gamble and risk should be placed on Ole.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

Football fans love to talk about the future with so much certainty. Everything is laid out so why bother watching. Except ask a fan to predict the top four every season and most will get it wrong. Hell, ask one to pick 5 winners from the next round of matches and most of them will mess it up.

Football is unpredictable

Is football really unpredictable? In the last 20-30 years, we've had two unpredictable title winners. Blackburn Rovers and Leicester. Other than that, its very predictable with regards to the PL, at the very least.

 

[AgentSmith]

Which shows how difficult and silly that question is. Pep would implode spectacularly if he had to deal with the players we have (and had) in our squad long before two years had passed.
If he got to build his own squad in 2,5 years is something completely different.

Fair enough. It’s a hypothetical scenario so it’s not really worth discussing too much.

I just didn’t understand why the only point of consideration was how Pep would’ve done only if he’d been given the same level of backing as at City. It’s an interesting idea to think how he’d have handled being in the exact same scenario with the exact same group of players as Ole.

It’s a fairly bold claim to say he would have imploded but there’s probably some validity to it. We’ve never seen Pep have to want before. He’s always been given what he needs so it’s hard to say how he’d do if forced to adapt but given the assurance he would be given the time to as well.

I think it’s safe to say we’d see a very different system with a reliance on a few of the same players (Bruno, Maguire, Shaw) but probably a reliance on a few unexpected players as well (Matic, VDB, Bailly).

 

[SAFMUTD]

... and I think that gamble and risk should be placed on Ole.

Haha we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

 

[Siorac]

Nobody predicted that we had a chance of finishing 2nd this season, or for a brief period actually looked like we were in a title race. Nobody. Football is rarely predictable, and I couldn't care less about points totals really.

I'll just never understand the viewpoint in bold. This season and last, for me anyway, have been pretty great. Phrases like that just make you sound bored of football. 90% of it is hope. If you don't have that then I don't see the point.

If last season has been "pretty great", then the entire post-Fergie era has been one neverending thrill ride. If a pretty great season is where we win nothing and finish 33 points behind the champions... that's just beyond strange, to me. "Acceptable in context" is an evaluation I'd understand - but "pretty great"? We looked absolutely awful right up until the end of January.

I know many don't care about points totals but, well, they're wrong, utterly and absolutely wrong. They are a reasonably reliable indicator of where a team is at. A team that can't get 80 points will not win the Premier League because it's not the 90s anymore, just like a team with 15 points won't avoid the drop.

And yes, as others pointed out, football is often predictable. The last time a team out of the big 4 leagues won the Champions League was in 2004. Before that... 1995, I think? And that's a bleeding cup tournament. Leagues are even more predictable.

Hope needs to have some sort of reason, some foundation. At least for me. I can't simply blindly hope that things will be better all of a sudden, just because. I'd need to see some signs, a way towards success. But there are none. Just the same old thing we've been doing for the past 8 years: trying to decide if our underwhelming, disjointed football is mostly the manager's fault or an issue with the quality of the players, or a bit of both. We're treading water and everything suggests we'll continue doing so.

 

[b82REZ]

Ole may have well have spoke to him. Don't think for a second that implies he wanted him. Ole probably told by board you can forget Grealish this is as good as you're getting this window.

Why else would he freeze him out? Makes no sense. Why would any manager do that to a player they were desperate to sign?

If mental gymnastics were an Olympic sport, you'd have the gold medal locked down.

He wasn't the mangers signing, only if we ignore everything that has come out of his and the managers mouths.

 

[Matriac]

Ole may have well have spoke to him. Don't think for a second that implies he wanted him. Ole probably told by board you can forget Grealish this is as good as you're getting this window.

Why else would he freeze him out? Makes no sense. Why would any manager do that to a player they were desperate to sign?

If Ole didn't want him, he would have veto'd him. He's said himself that they'd rather have a hole in the squad than the wrong player.

Donny hasn't been frozen out, he's been given time to integrate with the squad, and chances in cups and some subs in the prem, but so far he has shown very little to be given regular starts over other players in the squad.
Bruno is almost always fit to play, and Pogba (who is a more important player for us than VDB) needed games to get his form back. Then Pogba played well and VDB didn't take the chances he got. When Pogba got injured VDB was injured as well, really unlucky for him as that would have been a chance for him. Instead we had to play 2 DM's even in games where we could easily have had a creative player instead.

He just doesn't play with confidence. Always goes for the safe options. And I'm certain he's been told by Ole and coaches that his spot in the squad isn't dependant on him not losing the ball, that they rather see him take more risks. Have fun and be creative. Instead he keeps turning around and plays the ball back to where it came from 9/10 times.

Here from the VDB thread an Ajax fan that used to watch him every week agrees that he's just not taking his chances.

I think the critics are fully justified at this point. I don't watch United that regularly, but I have seen some matches in which Donny featured, and he simply has been woeful. Absolutely horrible. So negative in his passing, no initiative whatsoever, no threat whatsoever, he purposely seems to make himself unavailable for the pass. I'm truely amazed by how bad he has been.

However, and I cannot stress this enough... he was a good player at Ajax. Ofcourse, the Eredivisie is on a different level than the premier league, no doubt about that. But he showed it in the Champions League as well for Ajax, quite frequently actually. Plus, Donny has been utter shit against bad cup oppositions as well for United, in slowpaced, low intensity matches. It is not just a matter of the high intensity of the Prem being too much for him. I've seen Donny for +- 4-5 years in the Ajax first team and his body language is unrecognizable. He seems extremely shot of confidence and, given the total lack of initiative and positive impact, his play shows. He seems completely out of place.

I think, barring a total mental reset come summer, there is no way back for Donny at United. It simply seems like a total mismatch. Maybe Donny is just a system player, who knew the Ajax system from his childhood days, and simply is unable to adapt. Or maybe he can adapt in another environment, with another team. But the way this is going, there is little hope for him at United. I hope he proves everybody wrong, because he is a good lad, with great work ethics (although it doesn't show at all at this moment..).

Saw another dutch fan also say that maybe this shock of going to a bigger club in a more intense league has been too big of a change for him, and it could have happened at any club he went to.
That hopefully with a full pre-season together with the team, a run of friendlies and continued chances might make him be able to take the next step up.

As of now, it's a dumb thing to complain about Ole over. VDB has gotten his chances, just not taken them, and been unlucky with injury timing.

 

[Bilbo]

If last season has been "pretty great", then the entire post-Fergie era has been one neverending thrill ride. If a pretty great season is where we win nothing and finish 33 points behind the champions... that's just beyond strange, to me. "Acceptable in context" is an evaluation I'd understand - but "pretty great"? We looked absolutely awful right up until the end of January.

I know many don't care about points totals but, well, they're wrong, utterly and absolutely wrong. They are a reasonably reliable indicator of where a team is at. A team that can't get 80 points will not win the Premier League because it's not the 90s anymore, just like a team with 15 points won't avoid the drop.

And yes, as others pointed out, football is often predictable. The last time a team out of the big 4 leagues won the Champions League was in 2004. Before that... 1995, I think? And that's a bleeding cup tournament. Leagues are even more predictable.

Hope needs to have some sort of reason, some foundation. At least for me. I can't simply blindly hope that things will be better all of a sudden, just because. I'd need to see some signs, a way towards success. But there are none. Just the same old thing we've been doing for the past 8 years: trying to decide if our underwhelming, disjointed football is mostly the manager's fault or an issue with the quality of the players, or a bit of both. We're treading water and everything suggests we'll continue doing so.

Just to be clear, when I say 'pretty great' I'm talking about my own experience as a supporter

 

[Chesterlestreet]

If last season has been "pretty great", then the entire post-Fergie era has been one neverending thrill ride. If a pretty great season is where we win nothing and finish 33 points behind the champions... that's just beyond strange, to me. "Acceptable in context" is an evaluation I'd understand - but "pretty great"? We looked absolutely awful right up until the end of January.

I assume he isn't talking about sheer tangibles there. More a feeling of things moving - slowly - in the right direction. And/or a feeling of being able to connect with the team - more so than under Moyes/LVG/Mou.

In terms of pure results, I'm sure hardly anyone would call it "pretty great".

ETA Yeah, see above - the clarification.

 

[Siorac]

Just to be clear, when I say 'pretty great' I'm talking about my own experience as a supporter

Well, I get that. When I still lived in my home town (we're talking more than 15 years ago, when I was a teenager), I regularly went to my shitty local team's games. The team was fighting relegation throughout that time, and as you can imagine, the quality in the Hungarian top flight wasn't spectacular. To put it mildly.

But we had beers before and after the game, sang stupid songs, hurled insults at the referee, cringed at the stadium announcer and the embarrassing music it played, laughed at the old geezers who always had the choicest swear words, that sort of thing. It was all great, regardless of results.

But you can't really have that through TV, so that's one thing. And the other is about how football works. We support a huge, ruthlessly commercialised business here and it's always a bit frustrating that the other similarly huge, ruthlessly commercialised businesses are so far ahead of us despite the humongous amount of money we've spent on competing with them. It's enough to make you cynical about it all.

 

[el3mel]

I assume he isn't talking about sheer tangibles there. More a feeling of things moving - slowly - in the right direction. And/or a feeling of being able to connect with the team - more so than under Moyes/LVG/Mou.

In terms of pure results, I'm sure hardly anyone would call it "pretty great".

ETA Yeah, see above - the clarification.

There was also a general feeling that we were moving in the right direction in the first season of both LVG and Mourinho as well.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

There was also a general feeling that we were moving in the right direction in the first season of both LVG and Mourinho as well.

Third time's a charm

 

[Chesterlestreet]

There was also a general feeling that we were moving in the right direction in the first season of both LVG and Mourinho as well.

Probably true, depending on how you define "general". Personally, I never thought hiring Maureen was a genuine step in the right direction - I just hoped he could win something big before fecking off again. I considered it extremely unlikely that he'd build a new dynasty - or anything close to it.

But the point - here - is that the poster in question was talking about his personal take on it, as a fan, it wasn't a general assessment.

 

[Zen86]

I'm over the Leicester game now. It was an incredibly frustrating game, we were pretty terrible on every level.

The team selection just didn't work. Fred-Matic just doesn't work as a midfield. Personally I don't think Matic has the legs to play for us anymore full stop, he gets left for dust far too easily. VdB-Martial-Pogba-Greenwood really didn't work either. VdB in particular had a golden chance to make a statement with what looked like a free role, and offered nothing throughout the match.

That said, we had to rest players. We haven't got a squad good enough to fight on three fronts at this end of a compacted season. People really need to stop holding City up as some sort of benchmark. We don't have City's resources and never will. We're a business, they're a sports-washing franchise.

 

[el3mel]

Probably true, depending on how you define "general". Personally, I never thought hiring Maureen was a genuine step in the right direction - I just hoped he could win something big before fecking off again. I considered it extremely unlikely that he'd build a new dynasty - or anything close to it.

But the point - here - is that the poster in question was talking about his personal take on it, as a fan, it wasn't a general assessment.

This is your own opinion and it's coming in hindsight. You can't convince me the general feeling about United wasn't that we were on the right track when LVG defeated Spurs, City and Liverpool in a row dominating them and stayed in top 4 for most of the season around 3rd to 4th in his first season, or when Mourinho won two trophies in his first season. To claim any otherwise is just talking in hindsight, hence labelling last season "great" because we were supposedly moving on the right track more than the previous 2 managers is just an illogical concept. It seems people like to believe both were shit in terms of results their entire time here but it's not true.

If last season is "pretty great" when we got top 4 and trophyless in a season which is basically just on bar with LVG's first season then God help us.

The entire post Fergie era has been United fans thinking we are back then realizing it's a false dawn and so on. This doesn't feel anything different.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I agree with you, I think you are referring, as Skare Willoch before, to Pep doing better in just 1 season rather than doing better at all.

If its in one season yes is debatable, since Pep's specific set up is special and needs some time for players to get used to it, when it clicks it clicks but before that they produce major feck ups specially in the defense. Thats why I think that City team was so underwhelming in Pep first season. But if its overall I think its fair easy to assume that Pep would do better.

I don't know about him but I think you could be one of them because you are still persistent using Pep in the discussion and comparison here. Pep's 2nd season was backed by the board to sign players that he needed to upgrade his XI while Ole second full season didn't back by the board last summer to sign player that he needed to upgrade his XI. It's two different scenario.

If you still want to say Pep would do better then you have to take into consideration what happened if Pep didn't get the full backing by Man City board to sign his full backs and his new keeper, Pep will do better if the board backs the manager to get that specific player but will he do better if the board doesn't back him to get that specific players for him?

 

[crossy1686]

I have no idea what the expectation was/is. You would think in his third season that minimum requirement would be 1/2/3 in the league and a trophy. Getting knocked out of CL in the way we did and to then end up with no trophy would stink a bit.

I agree but if look outside of Manchester United for a second and look at Arsenal. Would we seriously expect them to be competing for a league title in 3 seasons? They're in a similar position to where we were a couple of seasons ago but we're better funded so we can arguably get back to the top quicker with good recruitment.

I know it stinks, no one's happy about the whimpering end to the season we're going to have but it's only because we dared to dream at points during the season. A good summer this time round and we could be back. However, no one expected what we've done so far last summer, so let's just remember that.

 

[crossy1686]

We've barely ever been as dominant against a good side under Ole as Leicester were yesterday. That's my point. Their ball retention, organisation (even after changing the shape to suit players available. Who'd have thought that's a possibility eh?). They played football like a proper top team does, set out to dominate and did just that. We play to ambush, use physical attributes and less intelligence and organisation. We rely on the mind of the individual to come up with the answers. All of which points to a lack of ideas from the actual man in charge.

I mean, that's not really true. We've absolutely dominated City (declared the greatest team ever to grace the game by some) in some of the games we've played them, in fact the last derby was about as one sided as I can remember in a long time.

We can want different styles of football but none of it guarantee's you success. Leicester play a certain way and recruit accordingly, and have done for years. We've got a squad that can't break down a low block but is probably the best in Europe at countering. You have to play to your strengths, I'm sure if we had different players we'd play a different way but this is what we currently have.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

The entire post Fergie era has been United fans thinking we are back then realizing it's a false dawn and so on. This doesn't feel anything different.

You're right about that - I agree.

But that doesn't mean the "feeling" about either LVG or - especially - Mourinho can be called pure hindsight. With regard to the latter, it was a common opinion that he was "the right choice" in the sense, and only in the sense, that he could win something big for us in the short term - which we needed, to get back on track as a genuine top club.

Basically - yes, we know who and what Mou is, but we'll take him because if he pulls a traditional Mou number he'll actually win something big (league or CL).

That was my thinking anyway - and I had absolutely no illusions about him "settling down" and transforming into a team builder with the long-term in mind. I wasn't alone in thinking along those lines - it was a very common view. Those who welcomed Mourinho at United were divided into two broad categories: 1) those who wanted him as Fergie's replacement back in 2013 and 2) those who thought "feck it, why not - he could win something before melting down".

In that first category there were a number of deluded Maureen fans who actually believed he would change and embrace the role as a long-term manager - but those were nothing but a vocal minority (some of whom still linger around this place - and who are still butt hurt that their fantasy never came true).

 

[SAFMUTD]

I think it's you because you are still persistent using Pep in the discussion and comparison here. Pep's 2nd season was backed by the board to sign players that he needed to upgrade his XI while Ole second full season didn't back by the board last summer to sign player that he needed to upgrade his XI. It's two different scenario.

If you still want to say Pep would do better then you have to take into consideration what happened if Pep didn't get the full backing by Man City board to sign his full backs and his new keeper, Pep will do better if the board backs the manager to get that specific player but will he do better if the board doesn't back him to get that specific players for him?

I think he would yes, even without the backing he had at City. Im not saying he would had take us to the heights he's taken City, but I do believe we would be better than what we currently are.

It's hypothetical so there's no way of proving it, but if I had to bet who would do better under any same set of conditions between Ole and Pep I would bet for Pep always.

 

[el3mel]

You're right about that - I agree.

But that doesn't mean the "feeling" about either LVG or - especially - Mourinho can be called pure hindsight. With regard to the latter, it was a common opinion that he was "the right choice" in the sense, and only in the sense, that he could win something big for us in the short term - which we needed, to get back on track as a genuine top club.

Basically - yes, we know who and what Mou is, but we'll take him because if he pulls a traditional Mou number he'll actually win something big (league or CL).

That was my thinking anyway - and I had absolutely no illusions about him "settling down" and transforming into a team builder with the long-term in mind. I wasn't alone in thinking along those lines - it was a very common view. Those who welcomed Mourinho at United were divided into two broad categories: 1) those who wanted him as Fergie's replacement back in 2013 and 2) those who thought "feck it, why not - he could win something before melting down".

In that first category there were a number of deluded Maureen fans who actually believed he would change and embrace the role as a long-term manager - but those were nothing but a vocal minority (some of whom still linger around this place - and who are still butt hurt that their fantasy never came true).

This isn't about Mourinho being the right choice for us, if he was going to settle here for long term or not, it's about feeling if the club was moving in the right direction during the first season of both him and LVG or not and pretty sure the general feeling for both managers during their first season in charge of the team was that we were yes, hence saying Ole's first season was "pretty great" just because we again feel we're on the right track doesn't make sense because we have been here before, and Ole's first season isn't really that much better than LVG's first season when we also finished top 4 with 70 points and trophyless.

I still don't get the feeling that United can put a sustainable title challenge for the course of a 38 games season. What are the expectations for next season ? Are people expecting us to challenge for the title next year ? Because this ultimately is the target for whatever "right track" we should be moving on. If we are yet again just expecting top 4 with more points and a cup in the manager's 3rd year in charge, it'll be underwhelming feeling.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

I think he would yes, even without the backing he had at City. Im not saying he would had take us to the heights he's taken City, but I do believe we would be better than what we currently sre.

It's hypothetical so there's no way of proving it, but if I had to bet who would do better under any set of conditions between Ole and Pep I would bet for Pep always.

Your hypothetical is only based on Pep is being the superior manager though which a bit of lazy argument to use but not based on something more detail like whether our current players suit his style or our manager's style.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

If mental gymnastics were an Olympic sport, you'd have the gold medal locked down.

He wasn't the mangers signing, only if we ignore everything that has come out of his and the managers mouths.

So he is the managers signing and our major signing of the summer at that and he just gives up on him almost straight away??? yeah makes loads of sense that.

Donny clearly isn't Ole's guy. Anyone who thinks he is might be interested in some magic beans I have for sale.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I'm not sure why are you arguing who is better manager here FFS, anyone know Pep is top manager and much better. But the point you are missing is critical and that is any manager even if you are proven, unproven, world class or not, they still need time and if the board doesn't the support the manager and delaying the progress then the manager will need more time. If the only way to solve all these problems are by hiring someone as good as Pep or Klopp then we are fecked because there is no one right now can come anywhere near their level.

Nobody is missing that point. If you're not good enough to be a top manager no amount of time and support will turn you into one. If you are a top manager you will eventually get there in most cases. And only people in England have built up Klopp and Pep as the only sacred two of management. There are other managers doing quality work - see Conte's league record over the last decade or Simeone soon to possibly winning 2 La Liga titles. Similarly other top managers will keep arising.

 

[ForeverRed1]

Perfect scenario would be a one year extension and backing by the board on transfers.
3 seasons and backing there would be no excuses.

he’s basically got the same team as last season bar Bruno and look at the difference he made.

 

[SuperiorXI]

Perfect scenario would be a one year extension and backing by the board on transfers.
3 seasons and backing there would be no excuses.

The board already haven't backed him once and he still looks to have gotten them their top 4 hence dividends. Wouldn't be surprised if they didn't back him again citing COVID and low revenues.

Maybe if they hadn't leeched off our club for all these years we'd have some healthy cash reserves to dip into.

 

[Bilbo]

Well, I get that. When I still lived in my home town (we're talking more than 15 years ago, when I was a teenager), I regularly went to my shitty local team's games. The team was fighting relegation throughout that time, and as you can imagine, the quality in the Hungarian top flight wasn't spectacular. To put it mildly.

But we had beers before and after the game, sang stupid songs, hurled insults at the referee, cringed at the stadium announcer and the embarrassing music it played, laughed at the old geezers who always had the choicest swear words, that sort of thing. It was all great, regardless of results.

But you can't really have that through TV, so that's one thing. And the other is about how football works. We support a huge, ruthlessly commercialised business here and it's always a bit frustrating that the other similarly huge, ruthlessly commercialised businesses are so far ahead of us despite the humongous amount of money we've spent on competing with them. It's enough to make you cynical about it all.

I'm cynical about a lot of things, but rarely United. If you look at the history of our club we've been crap a lot more often than we've been good, and I just look at this current time as someone's else turn at the table. I'm just about old enough to have experienced the huge highs and lows of watching Ferguson trying to build something here, and honestly when I look back at everything I think that was amongst my favourite periods as a fan.

Of course the first couple of PL trophies were great, and the 99 season can't ever be topped, but that time when were just about starting to get it together and you could sense something was coming is up there as a truly golden time for me too, and my instinct tells me that we are on the same path right now. Not just because of Ole, but also because of the potential in the team and the moves that the club are making now. We have gotten our act together.

 

[ForeverRed1]

The board already haven't backed him once and he still looks to have gotten them their top 4 hence dividends. Wouldn't be surprised if they didn't back him again citing COVID and low revenues.

Maybe if they hadn't leeched off our club for all these years we'd have some healthy cash reserves to dip into.

There is no doubt in my mind we would have massive amounts of cash for players. Ole gets so much stick and yet people forget he isn’t being backed, he isn’t choosing the players at his disposal. In reality the only person agreeing to players that matters is the manager. Unfortunately we don’t have a sugar daddy and have leeches at the club. Really crap time for Manchester United this, one big dark cloud above us. Hoping the day someone with billions buys us, pays off the debts, invests In the stadium and of course the team.

I’ll be waiting a while...

 

[Chesterlestreet]

This isn't about Mourinho being the right choice for us, if he was going to settle here for long term or not, it's about feeling if the club was moving in the right direction during the first season of both him and LVG or not and pretty sure the general feeling for both managers during their first season in charge of the team was that we were yes, hence saying Ole's first season was "pretty great" just because we again feel we're on the right track doesn't make sense because we have been here before, and Ole's first season isn't really that much better than LVG's first season when we also finished top 4 with 70 points and trophyless.

If you mean there was a general feeling of (uneasy enough, I would add) optimism - which later turned to utter hopelessness, then yes...I agree.

And I also agree that you can easily interpret the "dawns" under Ole in roughly the same light. Of course you can - for me, there are just far too many unanswered questions to make me a "believer".

Still, it would be wrong to ignore that the basis for the (general) optimism under LVG and Maureen was different compared to the optimism felt by some fans now.

Ole is an unknown entity to a much larger extent than LVG and Maureen.

I remember discussing LVG with Bayern fans on here shortly after he was hired - and much of what they predicted would happen actually...happened. LVG was set in his ways - he wasn't going to magically change his basic approach.

Similarly, if you disregard the Maureen fanbois, most United fans who embraced the decision to hire him did so knowing very well that it was a gamble: he gets it right quickly, wins big, then melts down, then fecks off. MANY on here were extremely skeptical going into the third season with Maureen in charge - MANY actually predicted precisely what happened.

The true Ole-inners on here obviously see a potential in Ole - something that isn't comparable to LVG or Maureen at all.

Nobody - unless they were extremely naive - thought either LVG or Maureen would somehow grow with the task, as it were. The latter - growing with the task - is obviously a major factor in supporting Ole, right or wrong.

But - yeah, being generally pessimistic I do agree with your general assessment: this is probably just another case of hoping that we've got the right man in charge (short-term or long-term doesn't really matter - it's still mainly a hope, and it could easily turn to shite).

 

[SAFMUTD]

Your hypothetical is only based on Pep is being the superior manager though which a bit of lazy argument to use but not based on something more detail like whether our current players suit his style or our manager's style.

Exactly is based on that he's a way better manager, I think that its enough good reason to think he would do better.