Considering what we have in store for this summer as well as next one....things are not looking bright.
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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The payoff if things work out with Ole is that he builds a lasting legacy. If we win a league title he isn't going to suddenly leave and look for a fresh challenge somewhere else, I can imagine he would end his managerial career with United. That was obviously also the intention with Moyes and it didn't work out, whereas the other two prats were never long term options, and frankly should never have been considered let alone hired.
This time next year we will see if Ole's project is bearing fruit, but unless there's a total disaster, I would be all for keeping him as long as we're comfortably top four, ideally at least second.
This time next year we will see if Ole's project is bearing fruit, but unless there's a total disaster, I would be all for keeping him as long as we're comfortably top four, ideally at least second.
That makes no sense. The reason Ole struggles is because he's up against Pep, and he's not good enough for that level of competition.
If Pep was with us he wouldn't struggle, because he wouldn't be going up against Pep. He would be the one others would need to overcome.
It makes total sense if you just try.
It’s not only Ole vs. Pep.
It’s Manchester United, The Glazers and Ole vs Manchester City, a gazillion petrodollars and Pep.
One club has been highly dysfunctional for a long time, the other has been built to the highest sporting standards for a decade or more.
First off Pep and City are surmountable. Klopp and Conte have done it, so let's not make it as though it's an impossible task to overcome.
Secondly even if City as a whole are very well run, having a legendary manager who has routinely decimated most league campaigns he has taken part in, in various countries, will be a great equalizer for us. We've seen that with our own Sir Alex, and it would be no different with Pep.
So despite what you might say, I'm fairly certain that Pep would not overly struggle at our club. Sure it wouldn't be as easy as with City, but there's a reason he's the best in the world, and we're seeing it in our own league.
I’m not at all making it an impossible task to overcome. I’m simply trying to shed light on why I think Pep would struggle to be (as) successful at United. We can absolutely beat City in the future, but we’ve had have to rebuild our entire club after tearing it apart for years. That process has started, but it was obvious to everyone and anyone it would take time. Pep wouldn’t (and rightly so) ever take on a project like that at this stage in his career.
You think he’d do just fine, and that’s a fair opinion.
Pep would have made United as a big of a powerhouse as he made City. I don't doubt this one bit. Everything would have went differently regarding our transfer business and the way the team was built if he had got the job before being hired by City.
The point being, the managers we're up against are top level, and it will take more than a rebuild to surmount them.
In fact even for someone as good as Klopp, it took a lucky season with a lot of stars aligning for him to finally beat Pep in a league campaign. And in the contests between them, everyone saw and understood that it was the two best managers in the world up against each other. Not favourite vs underdog, but a clash of two titans.
With that in mind, you can understand why to some Ole doesn't even come into the equation at all.
Only if you believe Pep singlehandedly picks the targets for City and wouldn't have had his hands tied by our board.
It's almost a fact and not to be contested. One area where people don't credit Pep is that like Klopp he improves the performances of his individual players.
Many signify City like they've spent money as that of a career mode FIFA save when in reality we have signed four players who have cost more than the grand total of city's most expensive signing in Rodri. They've walked away from countless deals deemed too expensive, that doesn't like the narrative many on here place on them.
They have squad depth to an extent but the squad is not littered with world class individuals like that of Madrid 3 seasons ago. People hype up the infrastructure of city but show a lack of commendation to Pep who is by all accounts the best manager in world football. That is the difference between United / City the manager comparatively. The biggest problem Woodward and the Glazers have shown is giving managers too much accountability and responsibility with spending with no hierarchy watching over the state of affairs.
If this is directed at me (considering the post you’re replying to), I have to underline that I believe Pep is the greatest manager in world football as well.
Just because I haven’t given him credit for improving players doesn’t mean I don’t mean that he does. Because he’s the best if the bunch at doing that.
As long as the players have the potential to suit his system.
If not, he tends to give up and replace them. Pronto. We’ve seen that countless times, especially in defense. Not that it’s anything wrong with that, super teams need super players. Not necessarily world beaters in every position, but suitable, great players for sure.
And the fact that City have the squad depth is exactly the point I’m talking about when it comes to recruitment. No, he hasn’t spent 100+m on a single player. But he’s bought arguably very, very expensive players in literally every position. Some positions even several very good and very expensive players. If you can replace and rebuild your entire squad twice over, that counts as “career mode FIFA” in a way as well.
And that’s not discrediting him, I still believe he’s the beat of the bunch. But he has certain requirements and needs for his success to come true.
Ole in.
Ole out.
Let's shake Ole all about.
Ole out.
Let's shake Ole all about.
So Ole is lying as well?
https://tribuna.com/en/manutd/news/...-will-always-have-the-final-say-on-transfers/
That was delicious.These people keep on comparing one of the best managers in the word‘s rise to Ole Solskjaer, only deluded Utd fans can do that
As if Klopp relegated Mainz and won a title in Switzerland or something ... Idiots
Anything to be said for comparing Ole to Klopp now?
In this thread, are we only looking at his performans in the 90 minutes we play or are we looking at the things that happens besides the games as well?
For me its not possible to judge any manager just by the games, but I do understand why people only look at that.
And I might be wrong but I do give Ole a lot of credit for the way we work with the youth teams, and the way it looks like they work together now. I didn't see this with Mourinho, and not even van Gaal seemed to work together in the same way as Ole is doing. Van Gaal did good with young players but I am not sure how good the cooperation was.
There are some people both outside and inside United that are giving Ole a lott of credit for the work with our youth, and even what happens in the administrations parts in the club at the moment, and maybe I give him more credit than what he deserves. But surly we need to have that in mind judging him. Even Woodward and the owners gives Ole a lott of credit for the bigger plan and the work he does outside the first team. (If they didn't, hes gone whatever we think).
There are things that Ole does that worries me. But we are doing good in the league, and we are still in the EuroCup. Yes! like most, I am very disappointed about FA-cup and Champions league. Yes, we could play better and more beautiful football, but its not as boring as Mourinho, and its not as slow as van Gaal. The game against Leicester was a big disappointment consider the performans, and there has been more games lately that has been bad. Have not every team had there moment this year of bad performers and quality? (Its a strange year isn't it!)
I do believe the ambition from Ole and the owners is to win the league quite soon, but its going to be difficult... a few other teams can use money like no other.
I think we are looking at a United with a long term plan, and that makes a lott of us frustrated because we also wants fast results. I am sure the owners will not pay for a short term solution that not going to last more than short term.
Some issues we have now, was things that was very good last year, or the opposite. Last year The front three worked out really good, best in the league at times. But the midfield did not contribute good enough before Bruno. Now the midfield scores more than the front three, even if Bruno not scores every game like before. The McFred had some really good games, but is not good enough today. AWB and Shaw produce chansers like no other team. Last year they couldn't get the ball in the penalty area. With that said, I think Ole is working on the issues and see what is not good enough. He knows who needs to go and whom he not believe in. But he cant change them all by baying new players. He need to see who he still got trust in, What does comes from the youth and what amount of money have the owners given him to use om players.
For me its not possible to judge any manager just by the games, but I do understand why people only look at that.
And I might be wrong but I do give Ole a lot of credit for the way we work with the youth teams, and the way it looks like they work together now. I didn't see this with Mourinho, and not even van Gaal seemed to work together in the same way as Ole is doing. Van Gaal did good with young players but I am not sure how good the cooperation was.
There are some people both outside and inside United that are giving Ole a lott of credit for the work with our youth, and even what happens in the administrations parts in the club at the moment, and maybe I give him more credit than what he deserves. But surly we need to have that in mind judging him. Even Woodward and the owners gives Ole a lott of credit for the bigger plan and the work he does outside the first team. (If they didn't, hes gone whatever we think).
There are things that Ole does that worries me. But we are doing good in the league, and we are still in the EuroCup. Yes! like most, I am very disappointed about FA-cup and Champions league. Yes, we could play better and more beautiful football, but its not as boring as Mourinho, and its not as slow as van Gaal. The game against Leicester was a big disappointment consider the performans, and there has been more games lately that has been bad. Have not every team had there moment this year of bad performers and quality? (Its a strange year isn't it!)
I do believe the ambition from Ole and the owners is to win the league quite soon, but its going to be difficult... a few other teams can use money like no other.
I think we are looking at a United with a long term plan, and that makes a lott of us frustrated because we also wants fast results. I am sure the owners will not pay for a short term solution that not going to last more than short term.
Some issues we have now, was things that was very good last year, or the opposite. Last year The front three worked out really good, best in the league at times. But the midfield did not contribute good enough before Bruno. Now the midfield scores more than the front three, even if Bruno not scores every game like before. The McFred had some really good games, but is not good enough today. AWB and Shaw produce chansers like no other team. Last year they couldn't get the ball in the penalty area. With that said, I think Ole is working on the issues and see what is not good enough. He knows who needs to go and whom he not believe in. But he cant change them all by baying new players. He need to see who he still got trust in, What does comes from the youth and what amount of money have the owners given him to use om players.
No doubt Pep would do great for us if he had a carte blanche. That's a big if.
It's true that City have spent a bit more than us, but they've also spent it more wisely. They would've walked away from Maguire and Pogba at those prices. While we wasted 200m under LVG, City bought some of the best players in the league for 40-50m. It's a mistake to think he has massively improved all his players when every single player City has available was picked by Pep and his team and vetted to see if they fit in his system.
Ultimately LVG did well with the players he had. It's delusional to think that Pep would win the league with that squad. Wasting 200m on flops is why LVG failed.
Fast forward to Ole. He hasn't imploded, the results are fine, he's involved with positive changes to the inner workings of the club.
His transfers are solid and he seems an okay man manager. He's the first manager since SAF that's not actively harming the club.
Yes, I too have doubts whether a mere mortal can win a trophy in the era of tactical wizardry. But he deserves a chance, doesn't he? Unlike his predecessors, no permanent damage will come of it and his successor will benefit from the young squad he has built and the structural changes he has made.
It's true that City have spent a bit more than us, but they've also spent it more wisely. They would've walked away from Maguire and Pogba at those prices. While we wasted 200m under LVG, City bought some of the best players in the league for 40-50m. It's a mistake to think he has massively improved all his players when every single player City has available was picked by Pep and his team and vetted to see if they fit in his system.
Ultimately LVG did well with the players he had. It's delusional to think that Pep would win the league with that squad. Wasting 200m on flops is why LVG failed.
Fast forward to Ole. He hasn't imploded, the results are fine, he's involved with positive changes to the inner workings of the club.
His transfers are solid and he seems an okay man manager. He's the first manager since SAF that's not actively harming the club.
Yes, I too have doubts whether a mere mortal can win a trophy in the era of tactical wizardry. But he deserves a chance, doesn't he? Unlike his predecessors, no permanent damage will come of it and his successor will benefit from the young squad he has built and the structural changes he has made.
I'm not sure he would've made us as dominant as his City team but he probably would have some success. Pep is obviously great but he struggles when he doesn't have a team that suits the way he wants to play. He's not an adaptable manager, he won't change tactics to fit the players he has in his squad or he hasn't really shown it yet. We've never seen him take over a side like the one he would've inherited in 2016, every team Pep has managed has been without a doubt the best side in the country and of course with City he's had the luxury to spend ridiculous amounts of money. He wouldn't have been able to do that at United.
Also, as good his Bayern team was domestically they never won the CL or even made a final. In four seasons he's yet to do the same with City.
Very good post. Cheers.
The team he took over in 2016 finished level on points with Van Gaal's desperate, non-scoring United side. And we've spent roughly €775m since Pep took over at City. This narrative that we're somehow paupers who would have forced Guardiola to work on a shoestring budget is blatantly ridiculous.
Well I think he has adopted a lot recently though. I think that is one of his better traits being tactically flexible.
He do want to play dominant football though, but we have seen him even change that around a bit.
How he is not harming the club? He doesn't win anything, he brought mentality where losing is ok and he spent a fortune on few players who are not good enough. He is by far worst thing to happen after Saf retired. Moyes at least lasted one season so he could not feck up much.
£170m spent on Maguire, AWB and VdB... money that could have been spent so much more wisely. The opportunity cost of those fees is immense. Even moreso after Covid and the club being basically penniless in terms of transfer budget.
That and the ushering in of a new era where the only aim is a top four finish and no one cares how many cups we bottle out of, how many CL group stages we embarrass ourselves in, or how far ahead our rivals get, provided we still sneak into the top four.
So yeah, not actively harming the club the jury is still very much out on that one.
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never shake a baby(faced assasin).Yeah of course they do because him being a job keeps that nice little buffer between the fans and the board and helps he provides that cheap and cheerful vibe as well so won't even call out the board in a subtle way, obviously not suggesting he goes all toxic like we saw from Jose because that's going to the extreme. Couldn't believe what I was reading about our leechy owners having ambition to win the league, clearly this poster has forgotten the toy story puppets awful quote about off the pitch success is not associated with on the pitch.
You okay, mate?
Well, the fans starting to be Ole out, and at least what I see there still is a new ecctencion coming up.
I do understand that they are happy because of the way he is willing to do the work! The way THEY want him to work. And to be honest I can't remember Ferguson complaining to much about the owners. He worked with and in the same conditions as Ole.
And don't get me wrong, I would love to change the owners. I don't like the way they handle the club as a business and not like a football club.But that doesn't make me lose the ability to understand the situation we are in and try to do the best with that until something change. And yes, of course they want to be the best fotballteam. But they do not want it to costs more than that they make the profit they want every year. And it is for sure because they would make more money if we win, not because any feelings towards the club. Every investment needs a profit and if you (the investor) don't count feelings as a profit you probably count money. Don't you think think the owners would like the money victory brings?
And I do remember Woodward saying that the club makes money even when we don't win. I think you know what he ment by that. It was an explanation to the "good" numbers despite bad results, nothing els. The banker guy talking in a football world.
He showed with the stupid statement that money is more important to them, then it is to us supporters. Didn't we all knew that before?
I for sure already knew and the only surprise with the statement was that a intelligent man said such a stupid thing, even if it was just a statement of the economic situation.
I think the owners just want to make top 4 each year by spending as little as possible. They don't care about us winning trophies, they aren't football fans and certainly aren't Manchester United fans. Take the dividends each year and secure champions league money.
Something I find really strange about Ole is why he seems so resistant to bringing in some experienced coaching from outside of the club, you only have to look at how it worked out really well for Fergie when he appointed both Meulensteen & Queiroz to help him during the mid-late noughties and he is supposed to be a disciple of SAF.
What does the bolded bit even mean and how can that assertion be disproven by manager and club? Ole lashing his players like Uday after a loss? The club firing the manager after a loss?
Just to remind you, we're in second place and still in the EL. We haven't lost that many games, far fewer than any of the post-SAF seasons.
Do you buy into the idea that not winning trophies leads to a loser mentality? Are Salah and TAA less likely to win trophies now that they've had a poop year?
We have quite a few players in our squad that have won trophies and some of them are clearly not good enough. We even have a world cup winner.
How can Ole be worse than Moyes or LVG when we were struggling for top 4 under them and now it looks secure with 9 games to go? Because he hasn't won a cup? Most people would take the second place finish instead of a 5th place + cup, because the former implies stability, while the latter can camouflage a poor team. Ask any Arse fan. There's a bit of luck involved with cups.
Ole didn't spend that money, the club did. It's not like he identifies Maguire and tells Ed to cap at £70m or walk away. The chequebook isn't solely Ole's responsibility, nor should it be. He does have a veto, so he is responsible for who comes in the door. Us overpaying for Maguire is proof we're a poorly run club. He's still a quality CB that's improved us.
Di Maria, Rojo, Darmian, Schneiderlin were also £170M.
Why didn't you include Bruno and why didn't I include Shaw?
If those 3 are supposed to be examples of flops, you're not helping to make your case.
I can pick 3 of SAF's flops, but I wouldn't see the point.
The only LVG signing that's been fantastic is Shaw. We got some mileage out of a few: Blind, Herrera, Martial, etc, but most of the signings were terrible.
Mourinho's got us a few solid ones, but many of them were short term like Zlatan or Matic. Jose could have had Xavi, Iniesta, Scholes and Carrick in his academy and he still would have gotten Matic. He never works with youth.
Contrast this with Ole picking up Amad and Pellistri, both of whom look very promising.
I think it's too early to judge AWB and VDB. The former is in his first season and overused, the latter has 0 confidence at the moment.
Bruno is the best signing since Van Persie, Telles is a competent backup that has revitalized Shaw, James was a gamble that didnt pan out. They're not perfect, neither were SAF's, but I'd take them over all of LVG's flops and Mourinho's stop gaps.
If you think all of our post SAF managers' transfer records are poor, what do you think the constant is between all of them?
And how come we've been overpaying under all our managers? Let me guess: LVG and Jose were past it and Ole is an imposter? If only we'd find that one magical manager...
He needs a Queiroz to come in and rewrite his way of thinking. We’ve heard from players what an excellent man manager he is (like Fergie) but tactically he can’t do the “these people paid the money and it’s the high point of their week, go out and express yourself” speech Fergie did because he doesn’t have the same scenario of years of building up the players sir Alex did. He needs a complete outsider who can help him tactically.
That’s the issue. Carrick and the like can mimic exactly what Fergie did but they need to realize 1) the game changed and 2) it’s a completely different scenario with different personalities.
the fact that Ole has the players is step 1 and good reason to give him a little leeway.
That’s the issue. Carrick and the like can mimic exactly what Fergie did but they need to realize 1) the game changed and 2) it’s a completely different scenario with different personalities.
the fact that Ole has the players is step 1 and good reason to give him a little leeway.
Thats an awful lot of text to not really make any sort of point. I never said Ole had done a worse job on transfers than Jose or LVG. My point was that the value for money of our signings haven't improved under him. Because they haven't.
Woodward and Judge and the scouting team are obviously the common theme throughout all of it. On the whole, they've proven to be shit at identifying players and shit at doing deals that get any sort of value. And they're abysmal with contract negotiation and strategy. We all know this it's very old news.
But like you said, Ole has a veto and can identify his own targets, just as LVG and Mourinho could. But too often they didn't and signed off on Woodward-inspired deals that were economically ruinous. Jose signed off on spending all that money on Pogba despite not having a clear plan to build a team around him, and targeted Matic and Lukaku to the club's detriment. LVG signed off on the mega deal for Di Maria despite knowing he didnt even fit into his planned system, and his own targets turned out shit.
Ole relied on poor advice to focus all of that money on AWB and Maguire, a right back who's only good for a team that doesn't have the ball, and a centre back who's so slow you can't ever play a high line. Then he signed off on spending £40m on what was obviously a scouting department recommendation to sign VdB, despite clearly having no keen interest in the player himself, or plan for him once he got here. Also let's not forget Ole signed off on spending upwards of £100m of money the club didnt have for Sancho, and who knows how badly that might have ended up ranking in our history of shit signings. Therein my point: Ole has so far proven no upgrade on LVG or Mourinho in terms of long term damage to the club through shit transfer strategy.
I'm with you on this, with the addition that its there lower bar. For sure they have seen what winning does to the economic looking at Liverpool.
They don't know football, but better people on counting money is hard to find!
The constant is we're being ran by people who make poor choices when they select the managers - who then select the players.
As for Solskjaer and money, he doesn't sit on the trasnfer negotiations, but as head of the football department I'd expect he'd have input on the matter. What if he says he wants Dan James, and Woodward then comes back to him and says he's got a deal for 60m? you'd expect the manager to tell him to let this one go because it's way, way too much.
What’s Conte league record and Simeone soon to possibly winning 2 La Liga in his 11th full season are any relevant to Ole who only had around 2 years at United so far with one of the season progress being held by the board? You are clearly missing the whole point. Most top manager need to start somewhere first before become top manager but the point is not that, the point is any manager needs time to build and develop a team.
A Lazy argument is not a good reason.
Lot of talk always about the abilities of the coaching staff, and why Ole doesn't add to it. Could it possibly be that he is happy with what the coaches are doing? I'm sure a club of our size and stature wouldn't have a problem bringing in new coaches if we deemed it to be necessary
Do you not read what he said. He already said the value for money of our signings is not Ole’s responsibility. Ole had the authority to say who’s coming in but not the value for money of the transfer.
I think no one in a manager position will turn down if you got your players that you wants in no matter money when you need to accomplish the target. It is CEO/the Board's responsibility to decide and determine whether players' are worth with their asking price.
Also, you should consider why our buying cost is always larger than other club in post SAF era.
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