Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
Di Maria's angel said:
My point is Klopp is on another level to Ole. I have no idea why anyone would argue otherwise.
Click to expand...
Yes and even Klopp on another level to Ole had a ridiculously hard time in his first season with some dreadful results and finished 8th even though he had like 2 months longer and he was up against a lower standard of opposition in the league.
 
roonster09 said:
Make up your mind and fix the number. I wasn't the one who used 22 games,

You said "I think they finished the season with 11 wins, 7 draws and 4 losses but most importantly they scored 44 goals across these competitions."

Even 45 goals in 23 games is equivalent to 74 goals league season, nothing special.
Click to expand...

Holy shit, I'm not saying it is. I used those points to help argue that they were improving. Liverpool clearly moved forward whereas, we're moving backwards... again.
 
bosnian_red said:
Yes and even Klopp on another level to Ole had a ridiculously hard time in his first season with some dreadful results and finished 8th even though he had like 2 months longer and he was up against a lower standard of opposition in the league.
Click to expand...

Honestly, if you think Klopp and Ole are anywhere near each other on a managerial level, then I cant help you.
 
DAV771 said:
They finished 7th :lol: :lol:. Yes it was a poor season but they weren't "almost relegated". Jesus. Does that mean Mourinho "Almost Relegated" Chelsea in his final season with them before United signed him up?
Click to expand...
I mean, they were literally bottom of the league after 19 games. Also Mourinho got sacked with chelseea in 16th. So yeah.
 
Last edited:
Wolves shellacking of Arsenal last night does put this crap run into perspective. They've an outstanding record against the top 6, so I'm not sure we should be too hard on ourselves for getting beat by them twice, considering the crazy run of injuries in one of those matches. Losing away against Arsenal is also no massive drama, considering their form at home. Which leaves our only other defeats vs Barcelon, City and Everton. The Everton game being the worst result, albeit against a team on an excellent run of recent form, who often cause big teams problems.

Obviously, the performances have been a concern but it's the time of the year when lots of teams put in clunky performances as games come thick and fast. When you take a step back, it does look as though the fixture list has been the biggest factor in the rollercoaster ride under Ole. For good and for bad.
 
Di Maria's angel said:
Honestly, if you think Klopp and Ole are anywhere near each other on a managerial level, then I cant help you.
Click to expand...
I'm saying the better manager struggled massively in a similar situation so with the lesser manager doing better and actually giving us a shot to finish top 4 in a more difficult season, I'd say he deserves a tiny bit of time.
 
Di Maria's angel said:
Holy shit, I'm not saying it is. I used those points to help argue that they were improving. Liverpool clearly moved forward whereas, we're moving backwards... again.
Click to expand...

We are not moving backwards. We have improved from the time Jose fecked off. We have hit the rough patch at wrong time.
 
bosnian_red said:
I'm saying the better manager struggled massively in a similar situation so with the lesser manager doing better and actually giving us a shot to finish top 4 in a more difficult season, I'd say he deserves a tiny bit of time.
Click to expand...

He didnt struggle "massively" though. They made two cup finals ffs. Our highs this season are flukey wins against Spurs and the chokers from Paris.
 
roonster09 said:
We are not moving backwards. We have improved from the time Jose fecked off. We have hit the rough patch at wrong time.
Click to expand...
Have we really? I think we are as hopeless as we were the last few weeks with Jose in charge.
 
Di Maria's angel said:
Honestly, if you think Klopp and Ole are anywhere near each other on a managerial level, then I cant help you.
Click to expand...

For feck's sake. He's not arguing that he is. If all you care about is whether or not Ole is "on the same level" as Klopp is right now then this is a pointless debate. What we're hoping for with Ole is that he will develop into a manager as good as Klopp is now. In the same way that Guardiola did when he first took the Barca job, with no managerial experience to speak of. Or Zidane at Madrid.

Constantly reminding everyone that Ole isn't on the same level as Klopp is completely pointless and also irrelevant to what you're discussing. Which is the fact that both Guardiola and Klopp had shitty runs of results at an equivalent point in their City/Liverpool careers to what Ole is going through now. And they were dropping points against much worse teams than we have.
 
Paul_Scholes18 said:
These types of stats doesn't really tell you the full story though. Confidence and other factors are not really included and I don't think it is lucky if you keep on doing enough to get your wins.
City are probably better to blast teams with plenty of chances than Liverpool, but it is not certain that it will reward them for sure over time either.

Overall City is better and will probably win the league. Still I do expect Liverpool to get even stronger if they bring in some more attacking options since they play Mane, Firmino and Salah in all games and that might not work for another season.
Click to expand...

Momentum and confidence plays major part in sports along with underlying quality , point I am trying to make is as per me Liverpool team currently doesn't possess quality to have regular 90points season's unless they strengthen in Summer it's far likely for them to get back in the pack then City who Under Guardiola would most probably have another 90 + points season.
 
bosnian_red said:
I wonder if this place would be less dramatic if we lost to Chelsea earlier in the FA Cup and we didnt get a last minute pen against PSG so just didnt have the chance to lose to Wolves and Barcelona twice. Though I guess people are so willing to forget a great run of 20 games if the last 10 were bad, struggling to look at the whole and realizing that teams go through good runs and bad runs. Also important to realize that we've had a fecked up fixture list. You dont normally get 7 games added in to an anyway tough part of the season like we did. 5 of them away. 4 against straight up better teams, 2 against teams at our level, and 1 against a team that has been beating the big teams all season.

I understand it if you dont think hes right for the job. But its fecking Ole, show some fecking faith and give him at least a chance. You can say all you want that 7 losses in 9 is relegation form, but its not when you had a 15 game run that had you in the best form in the league since he took over.

You look at the start when he took over, and you see where we end up. You look at the league table if results since he took over. You look at how he performed in the cups. Currently, he took over with us so far away from anything and the season as a write off, yet now if we win the last 3 there is a very real possibility that we finish 4th. In the FA Cup, we won 2 games consecutively away to big 6 teams, which is really difficult to do anyway, and then the big games caught up with us away to a team who performs brilliantly against the big 6. The FA Cup run exceeded expectations given the fixtures whatever way you look at it. In the CL, we made the quarter finals, nothing amazing, but probably the standard for our club. In no way a disappointment, especially when you consider that we faced vastly superior sides in both rounds, managed to get past one but not the other against a club that has been vastly superior to United for most of the previous 30 years or more.

So if you look at it overall, theres a good shot at finishing top 4 from a situation where pretty much unanimously people on here said he no question he deserves the job if we get top 4 even if that was an unrealistic standard at the time given how far away we were. We had a good run in the FA Cup where the tough away games just caught up with us, and then lost in a CL quarter final to Barcelona who are always just a level above us anyway. A team where at our peak and them very far from their peak, we massively struggled to get past them but just about managed it to put it into perspective.

Ideally, yeah we all wouldve wanted to wait until the end of the season to make a decision. But football doesnt work like that. Its not like there was so many managers just waiting on you to make a decision on a manager that was performing well anyway. It's not like players will wait on that decision when other teams are settled and competing for their signature. A decision had to be made in order for us to plan for next season, and it was made. The fixture list has caught up with us since, but we can still end on a positive note, and he deserves the summer window to at least do his part in starting the massive rebuild that we need.
Click to expand...

Absolutely spot on!
 
roonster09 said:
Make up your mind and fix the number. I wasn't the one who used 22 games,

You said "I think they finished the season with 11 wins, 7 draws and 4 losses but most importantly they scored 44 goals across these competitions."

Even 45 goals in 23 games is equivalent to 74 goals league season, nothing special.
Click to expand...
You don't get it do you? Just say Ole is shit.
 
Di Maria's angel said:
He didnt struggle "massively" though. They made two cup finals ffs. Our highs this season are flukey wins against Spurs and the chokers from Paris.
Click to expand...

:lol: Talk about one sided argument. Flukey win vs Spurs wasn't high. Win against Paris is played down as win against chokers. Somehow big up Liverpool's 2 finals, 1 was in Europa whereas we played PSG and Barca in CL.

Liverpool played - Bournemouth at Anfield, Southampton away, Stoke City in Semi finals to reach league cup finals.

Manutd played Chelsea away, Arsenal away and Wolves away in FA cup.
 
bosnian_red said:
I wonder if this place would be less dramatic if we lost to Chelsea earlier in the FA Cup and we didnt get a last minute pen against PSG so just didnt have the chance to lose to Wolves and Barcelona twice. Though I guess people are so willing to forget a great run of 20 games if the last 10 were bad, struggling to look at the whole and realizing that teams go through good runs and bad runs. Also important to realize that we've had a fecked up fixture list. You dont normally get 7 games added in to an anyway tough part of the season like we did. 5 of them away. 4 against straight up better teams, 2 against teams at our level, and 1 against a team that has been beating the big teams all season.

I understand it if you dont think hes right for the job. But its fecking Ole, show some fecking faith and give him at least a chance. You can say all you want that 7 losses in 9 is relegation form, but its not when you had a 15 game run that had you in the best form in the league since he took over.

You look at the start when he took over, and you see where we end up. You look at the league table if results since he took over. You look at how he performed in the cups. Currently, he took over with us so far away from anything and the season as a write off, yet now if we win the last 3 there is a very real possibility that we finish 4th. In the FA Cup, we won 2 games consecutively away to big 6 teams, which is really difficult to do anyway, and then the big games caught up with us away to a team who performs brilliantly against the big 6. The FA Cup run exceeded expectations given the fixtures whatever way you look at it. In the CL, we made the quarter finals, nothing amazing, but probably the standard for our club. In no way a disappointment, especially when you consider that we faced vastly superior sides in both rounds, managed to get past one but not the other against a club that has been vastly superior to United for most of the previous 30 years or more.

So if you look at it overall, theres a good shot at finishing top 4 from a situation where pretty much unanimously people on here said he no question he deserves the job if we get top 4 even if that was an unrealistic standard at the time given how far away we were. We had a good run in the FA Cup where the tough away games just caught up with us, and then lost in a CL quarter final to Barcelona who are always just a level above us anyway. A team where at our peak and them very far from their peak, we massively struggled to get past them but just about managed it to put it into perspective.

Ideally, yeah we all wouldve wanted to wait until the end of the season to make a decision. But football doesnt work like that. Its not like there was so many managers just waiting on you to make a decision on a manager that was performing well anyway. It's not like players will wait on that decision when other teams are settled and competing for their signature. A decision had to be made in order for us to plan for next season, and it was made. The fixture list has caught up with us since, but we can still end on a positive note, and he deserves the summer window to at least do his part in starting the massive rebuild that we need.
Click to expand...
Amen
 
Ban said:
You don't get it do you? Just say Ole is shit.
Click to expand...

Should have done it. What I don't understand is, this guy was loudest in defending Jose when he had 3 years to build his team and implement his tactics. Now this guy is the loudest in criticizing Ole when he had 0 transfer windows and barely any time to implement his tactics. feck logic though.
 
Paul_Scholes18 said:
These types of stats doesn't really tell you the full story though. Confidence and other factors are not really included and I don't think it is lucky if you keep on doing enough to get your wins.
City are probably better to blast teams with plenty of chances than Liverpool, but it is not certain that it will reward them for sure over time either.

Overall City is better and will probably win the league. Still I do expect Liverpool to get even stronger if they bring in some more attacking options since they play Mane, Firmino and Salah in all games and that might not work for another season.
Click to expand...

I find this way too cliche and doesn't hold up when scrutinised. What does confidence have to do with Pickford gifting a goal with the last kick of the game? A kick that shouldn't have happened because it was the 6th minute of injury time when 4 were allocated. What does confidence have to do with Oliver denying a stonewall penalty to Spurs in injury time early in the season? What about the deflected own goal against Spurs recently? What about Milner being miles offside against West Ham?

When analysing the dropped points of Liverpool I'd say 2 games have a strong case for going against Liverpool. Leicester and Arsenal. Leicester should have conceded a penalty, while Arsenal scored an offside goal. When analyzing the gained points of Liverpool, you can find several games where they got through the game due to luck or incompetence.

When balancing points, Liverpool lost 4-6 points from being unlucky/incompetence, while gaining 10-12 points from being lucky/incompetence. So, I'd say they are a high 80s points team, but will achieve mid to high 90s because of fortune.
 
roonster09 said:
:lol: Talk about one sided argument. Flukey win vs Spurs wasn't high. Win against Paris is played down as win against chokers. Somehow big up Liverpool's 2 finals, 1 was in Europa whereas we played PSG and Barca in CL.

Liverpool played - Bournemouth at Anfield, Southampton away, Stoke City in Semi finals to teach league cup fians.

Manutd played Chelsea away, Arsenal away and Wolves away in FA cup.
Click to expand...
I would say Ole has objectively had a better league campaign this season than what Klopp had in his first season. Knocking out PSG to then be knocked out by Barcelona in the quarters of the CL is on level with reaching the Europa League final surely? And comparing those FA Cup fixtures, I'd say Ole did better there as well, even though he lost in the quarters.
 
breakout67 said:
I find this way too cliche and doesn't hold up when scrutinised. What does confidence have to do with Pickford gifting a goal with the last kick of the game? A kick that shouldn't have happened because it was the 6th minute of injury time when 4 were allocated. What does confidence have to do with Oliver denying a stonewall penalty to Spurs in injury time early in the season? What about the deflected own goal against Spurs recently? What about Milner being miles offside against West Ham?

When analysing the dropped points of Liverpool I'd say 2 games have a strong case for going against Liverpool. Leicester and Arsenal. Leicester should have conceded a penalty, while Arsenal scored an offside goal. When analyzing the gained points of Liverpool, you can find several games where they got through the game due to luck or incompetence.

When balancing points, Liverpool lost 4-6 points from being unlucky/incompetence, while gaining 10-12 points from being lucky/incompetence. So, I'd say they are a high 80s points team, but will achieve mid to high 90s because of fortune.
Click to expand...

Spot on.

There’s just no way they will replicate this season.
 
DAV771 said:
Good job the season is more than 19 games long then.
Click to expand...
Sorry, shouldve specified that both Mourinho and Klopp had their teams around the relegation zone after half a season (bottom of the league and just above relegation zone). That's MUCH better.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
For feck's sake. He's not arguing that he is. If all you care about is whether or not Ole is "on the same level" as Klopp is right now then this is a pointless debate. What we're hoping for with Ole is that he will develop into a manager as good as Klopp is now. In the same way that Guardiola did when he first took the Barca job, with no managerial experience to speak of. Or Zidane at Madrid.

Constantly reminding everyone that Ole isn't on the same level as Klopp is completely pointless and also irrelevant to what you're discussing. Which is the fact that both Guardiola and Klopp had shitty runs of results at an equivalent point in their City/Liverpool careers to what Ole is going through now. And they were dropping points against much worse teams than we have.
Click to expand...

I probably should have worded it better. I've lost interest in this argument. However, my actual point would be that Ole doesn't seem to be on the same path as Klopp and Guardiola were when they first joined the PL.
 
Di Maria's angel said:
He didnt struggle "massively" though. They made two cup finals ffs. Our highs this season are flukey wins against Spurs and the chokers from Paris.
Click to expand...
They finished 8th and got schooled in a EL final to Sevilla. Don't give Klopp too much praise for reaching the League Cup final, all he had to do was win a few games against Southampton and Stoke.
 
Di Maria's angel said:
He didnt struggle "massively" though. They made two cup finals ffs. Our highs this season are flukey wins against Spurs and the chokers from Paris.
Click to expand...
They made a cup final which they lost in the Europa league and they lost against Pellegrini's City and then they made the cup final in the Europa league which they lost to Sevilla. Yet you say our highs were against PSG who is fecking miles better than any of the teams in the Europa league in any given year. Give me a break. They finished in 8th and ended trophyless. That's what they did that season. They got knocked out of the FA Cup in the 4th round after taking 2 games to get past Exeter City and then losing in the replay against West Ham. If that's not struggling massively, then Ole this season is having one of the all time great seasons :wenger:
 
gajender said:
I absolutely agree that's why I still believe we can challenge for title next season if we get our signings right and get some momentum early on, we don't have to embark on 3 year rebuilding process to challenge.
Click to expand...

I admire your optimism, but I don't think we'll make enough key signings for that to happen. Hopefully we will see an improvement in our play and the start of the process.
 
bosnian_red said:
They made a cup final which they lost in the Europa league and they lost against Pellegrini's City and then they made the cup final in the Europa league which they lost to Sevilla. Yet you say our highs were against PSG who is fecking miles better than any of the teams in the Europa league in any given year. Give me a break. They finished in 8th and ended trophyless. That's what they did that season. They got knocked out of the FA Cup in the 4th round after taking 2 games to get past Exeter City and then losing in the replay against West Ham. If that's not struggling massively, then Ole this season is having one of the all time great seasons :wenger:
Click to expand...

Don't forget the road to finals, playing poor teams in league cup and the first good team they played was City and they lost.
 
Di Maria's angel said:
I probably should have worded it better. I've lost interest in this argument. However, my actual point would be that Ole doesn't seem to be on the same path as Klopp and Guardiola were when they first joined the PL.
Click to expand...
Pep got 3rd (probably ending with 5 points more than we will end on this season under Ole after he took over with us on 26 points after 17 games), got schooled by Monaco in the CL ro16, lost to United in the League cup, lost 4-0 to Everton, lost in the FA Cup to Arsenal. Klopp was woeful in the league, finished 8th, finished trophyless (but if you want to credit him for losing 2 finals in the competitions that people rarely care about, go ahead), were woeful in the FA Cup and had 2 months longer than Ole. That's the 2 best managers in the world right now and managers who were proven for years before that. And they both struggled in their first season.
 
bosnian_red said:
They made a cup final which they lost in the Europa league and they lost against Pellegrini's City and then they made the cup final in the Europa league which they lost to Sevilla. Yet you say our highs were against PSG who is fecking miles better than any of the teams in the Europa league in any given year. Give me a break. They finished in 8th and ended trophyless. That's what they did that season. They got knocked out of the FA Cup in the 4th round after taking 2 games to get past Exeter City and then losing in the replay against West Ham. If that's not struggling massively, then Ole this season is having one of the all time great seasons :wenger:
Click to expand...

I will say this and leave it there. Both Pep and Klopp had achieved a whole lot more than Ole before they arrived in England. To compare these situations is completely ridiculous. And it wouldn't be Redcafe if they didn't slam a teams path to a final.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
For feck's sake. He's not arguing that he is. If all you care about is whether or not Ole is "on the same level" as Klopp is right now then this is a pointless debate. What we're hoping for with Ole is that he will develop into a manager as good as Klopp is now. In the same way that Guardiola did when he first took the Barca job, with no managerial experience to speak of. Or Zidane at Madrid.

Constantly reminding everyone that Ole isn't on the same level as Klopp is completely pointless and also irrelevant to what you're discussing. Which is the fact that both Guardiola and Klopp had shitty runs of results at an equivalent point in their City/Liverpool careers to what Ole is going through now. And they were dropping points against much worse teams than we have.
Click to expand...


What they did not though is look like pub teams. Our football right now is about as bad as I’ve ever seen us play. I for one see absolutely nothing that makes me believe Ole has what it takes to become as good or better as them. Early days still though.

But giving him the job permanently as early as we did was a mistake. You don’t do these kind of deals without proper due diligence.
 
Keeps saying the right things but this whole ‘Rashy’ Bullshit and his selection choices has be concerned as to whether he’s the right man for this rebuild.
 
You can see in recent weeks who Ole is favouring and which players have been given the chance to prove their worth.
I feel Ole knows by now who is on the chopping block:
Lukaku
Young
Herrera
Rojo
Matic
Mata
Possibly Bailly too.. .

I'd say these might be the 6/7 who will be vacating this summer. All of which have been given very limited game time
 
bosnian_red said:
Pep got 3rd (probably ending with 5 points more than we will end on this season under Ole after he took over with us on 26 points after 17 games), got schooled by Monaco in the CL ro16, lost to United in the League cup, lost 4-0 to Everton, lost in the FA Cup to Arsenal. Klopp was woeful in the league, finished 8th, finished trophyless (but if you want to credit him for losing 2 finals in the competitions that people rarely care about, go ahead), were woeful in the FA Cup and had 2 months longer than Ole. That's the 2 best managers in the world right now and managers who were proven for years before that. And they both struggled in their first season.
Click to expand...
But they both immediately started implementing systems based on more than fitness and work rate and nostalgia. There are valid concerns that this sentimental hire will do nothing to modernize this club.
 
bosnian_red said:
Yep a City team that Van Gaals United won away and finished the season tied on points with them. That city team. Good thing they won in the league and lost in the cup final though.
Click to expand...

This is pointless. Lets wait and see what happens. If you want to make a managerial comparison, it's fairer to compare Ole to di Matteo.
 
Godfather said:
What they did not though is look like pub teams. Our football right now is about as bad as I’ve ever seen us play. I for one see absolutely nothing that makes me believe Ole has what it takes to become as good or better as them. Early days still though.

But giving him the job permanently as early as we did was a mistake. You don’t do these kind of deals without proper due diligence.
Click to expand...
How the feck do we look like a pub team? We had largely a good performance against City, especially the first half, but once we went behind, we missed the chances to level the game. That's against City, who are painfully far ahead of us and have been since Fergie retired. Same with Barca. So if struggling against Pep Guardiola/Barcelona is the definition of failure, then I guess Sir Alex was a failure too given that both times he played Pep, we got schooled.
 
roonster09 said:
Weren't you talking about cups? Man you are all over the place.

They also lost many games in league against Palace, Watford, Swansea.
Click to expand...

You just said that the first good team they played was City (in the cup final) and they lost - surely you're making the point that they couldn't hack it against good opposition? They lost on pens by the way.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.