We should have won the game yesterday, no excuses whatsoever but my god as others have mentioned, it had caused certain people to bring their agendas out of the woodwork.
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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We should have won the game yesterday, no excuses whatsoever but my god as others have mentioned, it had caused certain people to bring their agendas out of the woodwork.
The poster is not comparing Ole to SAF, he is simply stating even SAF had similar losses along with other teams he mentioned.
Agreed that scraped is exaggerating some of the performances but while we may have been good value for a lot of those wins and probably deserved them, I wouldn't call any of the performances great. Apart from Leeds, I didn't finish those games thinking we were particularly impressive. I think he does have a point though that those performances aren't sustainable in terms of getting results consistently to challenge for the title. Overall, like you say, I think there are enough positives and while it's difficult as fans we start to believe our own hype.
The problem wasn't the subs, or really the lineup.
The problem was that for the last year and a half, our inability to effectively pull teams apart and offer more space to players. It was far too easy for Sheffield to mark Pogba out and push Bruno into ineffective positions.
This is why every game against the bottom teams is never, ever routine.
We also fail to box them in every game and it becomes so easy for them to play out and withstand pressure.
The reason we won't win the league is games like this.
While it is the premier league, we are a far better side and playing our first XI against the worst team in the division, at home, and it should be more routine than that. There's no excuse for struggling to beat them.
If we absolutely slam them into their own half, they get one and shithouse the result, fine.
But there were no ideas last night, no movement, no creativity.
The fact this has been a problem for going on 2 years is problematic, and you'd have to say that has to do with the manager.
City, our title rivals beat West Brom with ease, and even without a recognized CF.
The problem was that for the last year and a half, our inability to effectively pull teams apart and offer more space to players. It was far too easy for Sheffield to mark Pogba out and push Bruno into ineffective positions.
This is why every game against the bottom teams is never, ever routine.
We also fail to box them in every game and it becomes so easy for them to play out and withstand pressure.
The reason we won't win the league is games like this.
While it is the premier league, we are a far better side and playing our first XI against the worst team in the division, at home, and it should be more routine than that. There's no excuse for struggling to beat them.
If we absolutely slam them into their own half, they get one and shithouse the result, fine.
But there were no ideas last night, no movement, no creativity.
The fact this has been a problem for going on 2 years is problematic, and you'd have to say that has to do with the manager.
City, our title rivals beat West Brom with ease, and even without a recognized CF.
For the excellence in how he’s handled the Pogba dynamic recently and is now getting the best out the player, his mismanagement of Martial is equally poor. If ever there was a player that needs to sit on the bench for a few games and give him time to wonder why he’s watching, it’s the current Martial. If he is going to continue getting 90 minutes playing like he is, there is little hope of getting any fire back in his belly.
He will be judged at the end of the season. Till then try to enjoy the ride. For some people top 4 will be enough for others only a league title will do. It was a terrible result but the first loss in a long time, win at arsenal and all will be forgiven again.
Its the same, my point is that comparison has no validity at all. It's cherrypicking at best. Of course Sir Alex will have been in almost any situation/result he managed us for 27 years.
Under that premise almost anything is valid and ok since it most likely already happened under Sir Alex.
I still back him, but i cannot help but think that if we had Guardiola managing us we would be destroying teams.
Southampton are 11th in the table, it is laughable to suggest they are better coaches than us. So by your basis, Leicester are 5 points ahead of Liverpool, so they must be better coached than them? Leicester are a good team with some good players however having seen their performances including against us, I’ve seen nothing to suggest they are better coached than us.
He’s had just over 2 years to transform the squad and our performances. We are now second in the league. We are heading in the right direction, there will be bumps across the road. We should definitely competing for the title which we are this season. To sack him now would be utter madness. I like Naglesmann and Rose but they are not revolutionary, they are good coaches.
We are second in the table and have improved from last season in points totals and position. We are heading in the right direction.
He also memotioned other teams and added SAF afterwards. It’s an example all teams have bad results.
As I said you have to take squads into account, Southampton has a squad that should be in the lower bottom of the table. Instead they're in the middle and were in the top part until recently. Displaying a better football than their squad quality would suggest. They look better than the sum of their parts. I attribute that to coaching.
Regarding Leicester, no they're not better coached than Liverpool. But comparing half a season when Liverpool has imploded lately isn't really fair is it? That's why I compared the last 18 months.
Continuing with Leicester, ok you saw them against us and were not impressed ok, but you didn't answer my question would you swap full squad with them? They certainly get more performance for the quality of their players than us, not necessarily meaning they perform better than us. But again you have to take the squad quality into account. So I ask again would you swap full squads with them?
Now responding to the just over 2 years statement, I think you say it meaning is not much/enough time. How much time would you say is enough?
I'm not saying he hasn't done a good job until now nor that I dont think we're on the right path, I'm saying the path for him is ending and that path won't lead us to the title. Like another poster claimed, he took us from D to C and now it looks he's taking us to B. But B is not good enough to win the title we need A+.
I’m trying to picture some of their posts being posted with a straight face
Why is it after every loss do I see x is better coach than Ole, x team is better coached than us even though that x team is below us. Doesn't make sense. Also, what doesn’t make sense is before the season started or after 1-6 thrashing people expected us to finish outside of top 6 and now here we are close to the top. Yes it could all go tits and we may end up outside top 6 but we have to credit ole for the recovery. The expectation this season (at least for me) was to challenge for the title and try win a trophy. We may very well do that and I would take it for this season. Just more consistency and we may surprise many.
I said at the start of the season that for me the goal with our current squad was top 4. And thus far the team has exceeded my expectations which I'm very happy about. There's gonna be bumps in the road but so far so good.
RB Leipzig and Julien Nagelsmann also lost their last game against little Mainz who put 3 past them in a 3-2 win. So losing to bottom clubs isn't something that is only exclusive to us.
RB Leipzig and Julien Nagelsmann also lost their last game against little Mainz who put 3 past them in a 3-2 win. So losing to bottom clubs isn't something that is only exclusive to us.
If that's the case, what does a manager do? If you have better players, just let them play and everything will be sorted? Ole got outclassed by Wilder yesterday. The Ole In squad is like a sect. You can't see any fault in Ole and he is the best thing that has ever happened. Ignore the fact that we still can't break down low blocks and don't have a pattern of play, and hasn't won anything.
Look, mate. We played like shit yesterday. We did a bit of needed rotation. But don’t pretend we was outclassed tactically. They got two goals more fitting on comedy gold. When games comes every third or second day. What do you think a manager does? Please try to raise the level of debate. If possible, just a little bit!
fecking hell @Nou_Camp99, we were absolutely horrific yet made no significant change to our tactics or team until the 82nd minute. The only thing we did before then was attempt to bring on a striker despite the fact that we weren’t creating anything and were struggling in all areas of the pitch.
It’s not all Ole‘s fault that the starting 11 played like shit, and it’s not Ole‘s fault that DDG was weak as piss on their goal, nor that the referee disallowed a perfectly fine goal.
It absolutely is 100% on the management for not spotting how poor we were playing and how badly we were struggling tactically. We had plenty of time from half time onwards to drastically change our tactics and team to get ourselves back in the game yet the management sat round and did feck all.
You can defend Ole and be pleased with his management, and yet admit when he fecks up, you do realise that right?? You don’t have to defend the manager on every single mistake he makes, even when it’s pretty fecking obvious.
We were outclassed not because they scored, but because they, with ease, managed to deny all our attacking play. Please try to raise the level of debate. If possible, just a little bit!
Maybe it just showed where we still need strengthening. There is too much of a drop off when we make changes. We need another CB, DM, still that mythical RW and a CF. To be honest after last night I am not too sure about LW. Until that happens there is always a chance of this type of result if the players are not completely at the races and last night they weren't.
You must be shitting me right? We were at home to the worst team in the league and how many significant chances did we create? That’s because Wilder got his tactics spot-on and we had no reply to it, worst of all we didn’t even try to respond to him winning the tactical battle
Yes, they lost those games and we were one of those teams who beat them just a month or so ago. I'm not sure what the point is that you're arguing here. Not a single team has absolutely battered them and they have been unlucky not to get more from some of the games I've seen them in. The Leicester and Arsenal games are a perfect example of this - and the Liverpool game too. So, when you say that everyone has beat the breaks off them, that just isn't true.
In the first 5-10 games of the season they have been quite unlucky, and their underlying metrics showed that. They aren't the worst team in the league (that dubious honour is West Brom's).
We played very poorly yesterday and deserved to lose, but considering the run of form we've been on, one loss isn't the end of the world. There will be other losses too this season, as its par for the course when you have a team like ours that is still being moulded. Having every defeat be somehow a damning indictment of the manager and the players is just wrong. The time to evaluate is when the season is over. Take stock of what's happened and decide from there. And for me, as long as there's progress, then he deserves to see out the process. Lest we forget, people were saying we wouldn't be making Top 4 as late as December. I've also been consistent in my belief that the aim for us is still top 4, irrespective of what the table is currently showing because this team is still a work in progress.
This can't always be the answer. At some point you need to develop the players that you've got. The starting eleven yesterday was far better than what Sheffield put out.
Love the culture reset and squad rebuild he has done but unfortunately some of the same questions keep popping up. Way I see it, his contract runs until end of next season - he has until then to win a trophy and earn an extension otherwise we will likely need to move on. I am calm.
We lost to Bolton Wanderers a few times under Fergie among many other crap sides. How did they happen then?
That's football. The unexpected happens sometimes. It will always be that way.
yeah, we need a back up squad of WC players, no doubt.
I’m unsure about LW too, I mean, how can we expect to beat most of the Premier League with one of the best young players in the World at LW.
My God some of you really are the lowest of the low, you’ll throw every single player under the bus just to back the manager. Makes utterly no sense to me you can say the manager made a massive mistake last night by not changing his tactics and seeing the issues are yet still love him as manager.
You do need to develop players yes. However there are players who look good and that is as far as it will ever go. Other teams find this as well. Sometimes you have to just get rid. We have held onto too much dross for too long, draining the club of wages that could have been spent elsewhere.
Teams at the bottom fighting for their lives to stay in the division can be the most dangerous opponents. They need to start accumulation points soon or they are done for. I don't think this will be the last time this season that they cause an upset.
I do think Ole got a couple of big things wrong yesterday... putting 2 players with little game time in the back four, and then not having Fred in front of them. I can understand wanting to rotate, but he should have done that more in the attacking positions as I think when it comes to defensive changes, doing too many can really unstable your back four, and I think it showed.
The big one though was not changing things sooner... to not change your creative inputs in the game until the 80th minute is just absolutely bizaare. You have Mata (who's largely been decent this season, he came off the bench against West Ham and helped wit the turn around there for exactly), and VdB who can at least be relied upon to keep the ball/ and is something different... use one or both of them! Just do something different and do it proactively.
The big one though was not changing things sooner... to not change your creative inputs in the game until the 80th minute is just absolutely bizaare. You have Mata (who's largely been decent this season, he came off the bench against West Ham and helped wit the turn around there for exactly), and VdB who can at least be relied upon to keep the ball/ and is something different... use one or both of them! Just do something different and do it proactively.
Yeah, it's definitely been functional rather than brilliant, but when you look at the holes in the squad, and consider that Ole has only been in post for just over 2 years (when we were closer to the relegation places than we were to the Top 4 at the point he joined) is it any wonder that we aren't sparkling? Just remember how everyone was feeling after Spurs, the end of the transfer window and when we lost to Leipzig and then see where we are right now. It's been brilliant, but this is still the same squad which has the same shortcomings in terms of quality and depth.
We lost deservedly yesterday and we'll likely lose a few more times over the course of the rest of the season, but the key is to learn from them and make sure that we cut down the risk of these losses occurring in the future. It's a heck of a lot better than when Ole had his first bad run, but it's a continuous process.
It's been over a year now where teams sit back against us, we have no tactitical answer to it, even now at the level this team is 'fighting' at to stay at the top of the table, all the players are non plussed as to what to do about it.
The only only way to beat it is to string some passes together like bruno did with mason and mason shot wide.
It's on Ole and co to coach that, so why did we only do that once? Because the players let him down? The only way you could say that is if they kept doing that move and it flopped time and time again.
All we kept doing the entire game is try and go through the sides come back out again and again try and go through the sides??
City and pool both play through teams as much as through the sides, we ain't winning this league if we don't work out a solution to it.
The only only way to beat it is to string some passes together like bruno did with mason and mason shot wide.
It's on Ole and co to coach that, so why did we only do that once? Because the players let him down? The only way you could say that is if they kept doing that move and it flopped time and time again.
All we kept doing the entire game is try and go through the sides come back out again and again try and go through the sides??
City and pool both play through teams as much as through the sides, we ain't winning this league if we don't work out a solution to it.
If that was the case how come we were winning against Burnley's, Fulham's, Wolves' and are 2nd. One defeat and we can't break down team bs starts coming up.
Bailly was supposed to play but got injured in the run up to the game and I assume Lindelof needed to be rested for the weekend. He still has a back issue as far as I'm aware.
With Bailly in there, swapping Shaw for Telles isn't so detrimental.
I'd agree he should have brought VDB and Shaw on earlier and we could have got a result. Mata I wouldn't trust against such a physical opponent. He gets bullied off the ball far too easily.
I love how this thread blows up every time we fail to win a game.
We were shit yesterday and deserved to lose, but the overreaction here is on another level.
"Poor in-game management" - Obviously he made a mistake by subbing off Greenwood instead of Martial, but look at the games before this. 7 comeback wins this season - if anything, that points out that he is really good in making changes.
Then there's this argument that we lost to a poor team - Ofcourse, but this is football, more often than not, every season you see games where a team set for relegation beats/draws against top of the table sides - It has happened in the past and will continue happening in the future. It's about how we recover from this setback that will define the job Ole has done.
And lastly, "title challenge in tatters" - The most ridiculous of arguments. 2 months ago (let alone start of the season), if someone told me we'd be 2nd in the league 1 point (potentially 4) behind City after 20 games, I'd have bitten their hand off. We weren't supposed to be in this position as we're still a 'work in progress' team. The fact that we're here speaks volumes of the work Ole and the players have done. Let's not change the expectations every two weeks based on the situation as we'd be meeting expectations in best case scenario and underperforming in the worst case scenario.
We were shit yesterday and deserved to lose, but the overreaction here is on another level.
"Poor in-game management" - Obviously he made a mistake by subbing off Greenwood instead of Martial, but look at the games before this. 7 comeback wins this season - if anything, that points out that he is really good in making changes.
Then there's this argument that we lost to a poor team - Ofcourse, but this is football, more often than not, every season you see games where a team set for relegation beats/draws against top of the table sides - It has happened in the past and will continue happening in the future. It's about how we recover from this setback that will define the job Ole has done.
And lastly, "title challenge in tatters" - The most ridiculous of arguments. 2 months ago (let alone start of the season), if someone told me we'd be 2nd in the league 1 point (potentially 4) behind City after 20 games, I'd have bitten their hand off. We weren't supposed to be in this position as we're still a 'work in progress' team. The fact that we're here speaks volumes of the work Ole and the players have done. Let's not change the expectations every two weeks based on the situation as we'd be meeting expectations in best case scenario and underperforming in the worst case scenario.
Aye, well Bailly in there swapping it a full back is fine... But when you're bringing in someone for the first PL start at CB, I think keeping you need to be keeping your back four as strong as possible
I think Mata's movement off the ball/into the box would have helped. Certainly more then Statue M and Statue R that we had on the pitch! Plus his passing and ball retention would have been handy.
I'd have brought him and Cavani on at HT, and VdB on for Axel at around 60.
Not at all. We had loads of the ball. We had acres of space when switching sides in play. And we had numerous runs in behind defence. But seriously missing with our passing. But we also had little movement and energy.
It’s easy coming out in hindsight and saying silly stuff like we should have changed more. But we did come back, and we did change it two minutes later. You might want to see how that changes the dynamic of the team. It has done so many times this season coming from behind. We got punished by another brain fart in defence.
The team we put out yesterday has no excuse for not playing better. We had it coming for a long time. It was shit for a numerous of reasons. But no, we where not outclassed tactically at all! We played like shit and got punished by two comical goals.Some of the shit people post, I can’t imagine them posting with a straight face..
We go again on Saturday. And we might even loose.
Ok I'm confused, you said Southampton were better coached than us and they are 11th in the table, now you are saying they should be lower with their squad. Your points don't make any sense and no they shouldn't be lower as they have a decent team compared to the teams below them. If you are comparing the last 18 months, numerous points tables have us near the top since the beginning of last year so again makes no sense. And no, I wouldn't swap the whole Leicester for ours.
In the 2 years, we have shown improvement, we are now competing for the title and we should certainly keep competing this year and next year and onwards as well. The basis of the squad is good enough for that with improvements in certain areas required. I don't see how you can say the path for him is ending when he is still improving the squad so you should at least see how we fair next season with hopefully those weak areas improved.
This loss is on the players, not Ole.
Winning the tactical battle? Give over. They stuck 10 men behind the ball and got two lucky goals. We didn’t do enough to win the game but let’s not exaggerate.
As long as this isn't the beginning of a run similar to before Bruno came in, we can still recover and have a good enough season. It does worry me that that's our 4th loss at home this season. Palace, Spurs, Arsenal and Sheffield. There's still something really off about how we set up to play at home in comparison to away.
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