?Just the type of responses I love reading when trying to debate something
I'm serious with my question. Would you answer please?
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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I'm serious with my question. Would you answer please?
This is the one for me. The formation clearly wasn't working. we made a change at the start of second half with pogba much wider on the left and we looked better (though him being wide left exposed us to him tracking the fullback, ultimately costing a pen).
The subs basically put us back into the same 4222 kind of formation, with no width (especially because of the 2 full backs we play with). Putting matic on at the base of a 3 makes sense, to enable him to pull out McTominay (who was having a bad day) and Pogba who was also poor leaving us with -
Matic - Fred - Bruno -
Greenwood - Cavani - Rashford
in a 433 which on paper looks balanced, and has everyone playing in relatively their right position. Granted you could pull out fFred for VDB or Greenwood out for Mata maybe but I would never take of Greenwood or Bruno if we are chasing a goal. To me those changes seem obvious based on the flow of the game I don't understand how Ole didn't see that.
I feel like he bottled it taking Pogba off.
He is typical defensive manager. You can put 4 strikers and be defensive. It is about mentality. His main plan is to stay and wait. From first minute of the game you can see that we don't want a ball. Our plan is always to let other team to play and to punish them with counters.
His transfers also show you that. Defensive full back and defender who is best suited for deep defence.
He's a counter attacking manager which is OK if you are playing against somebody who gives you the opportunity to counter attack. If they don't we are fecked.
If he's defensive manager then why his team kept attacking after 1-0 2-0 3-0 in the matches after the Covid break?
Do you realise we scored our open goal against PSG and Leizpig was when we attacked them? And the wining goal against PSG was when we dominated and brought the game to them?
Do you see he sit deep and counter from the start against Spurs? Seville? PSG? Leizpig?
Tbh this narrative of Ole being a defensive manager is one of the weirdest things I've come across here. You can say he got things wrong sometime, or he played counter attack against stronger opponents prior to the signing of Bruno. But after the signing of Bruno the only match he played with a counter approach was against Chelsea.
And about him buying defensive players first. Well SAF said attack win you matches, defence win you titles. I hope you don't say SAF is wrong.
I understand that after the last match the forks are out again. But please don't turn this thread into another stupid battle OleIn/OleOut. Again, this is the last place here I can find people talking about Ole without being biased or the usual agenda in/out.
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Yeah that is absolutely spot on and very soon all of the fanbase will eventually realise that's the case
What?
United don't need someone who could improve players and teams.
We’ve looked really good in some games and I could accept dodgy results but the problem isn’t just the inconsistency of results, it’s the stark contrast in the performances.
Fair enough if we lose 1-0 to Arsenal playing our usual style (hypothetical as we don’t have one) and their keeper has a worldie, then over time we get a knack of breaking teams down. I can take extreme contrasts in results even if it was obvious we had something great building, which I have felt like we do at many points this season.
But we regularly turn out performances where we literally can’t string 3-4 passes together in their third of the pitch and create no more than 1 chance on goal. Simply not good enough and Ole will get sacked if he continues like this.
Fair enough if we lose 1-0 to Arsenal playing our usual style (hypothetical as we don’t have one) and their keeper has a worldie, then over time we get a knack of breaking teams down. I can take extreme contrasts in results even if it was obvious we had something great building, which I have felt like we do at many points this season.
But we regularly turn out performances where we literally can’t string 3-4 passes together in their third of the pitch and create no more than 1 chance on goal. Simply not good enough and Ole will get sacked if he continues like this.
Thought it might cause some bafflement. Of course Danny Murphy wants him to stay.
Exactly
That is right. This is a place where we talk about Ole's abilities, styles, decisions, tactics, subs...without Ole in/out rubbish, top reds posts etc..
I stand behind my words. He is defensive manager whos main goal is to sit back and wait. And as i said; i don't mind playing on counters. I like to see good counter attacking team. But that should not be only plan. Look at our stance in last 3 games. From first minute we go deep, give the ball and let other team play football. We should have been dominant team in last 3 games. Especially against Arsenal. Instead we opted for counters. When we get a ball we immediately look for through or long ball.
This is gold
Not Poch no, his success comes from improving players and teams. What the actual feck?
Bizarre take.
You can say that again.
Isn't that a main point of manager's job? To improve team and players?
Bloody hell, this is biggest bs of the year
Good thing we can agree on the biased thing.
However could you tell me of the last 10 matches which ones we approached the game with a sit back and counter plan?
And again, our plan was not to sit deep and counter against Arsenal. You don't try to sit deep with two attacking midfielder. You don't try to sit deep playing out from the back. You don't try to sit deep playing with a high line in possession. That's what you do when you want to force the opponent back in their own half and attack. Look at the position Bruno in the first half for example. For most of the time Bruno was very high up there, he only moved back sometime because he had no ball there. The plan was to attack, we just couldn't move the ball out of our own half. We were forced to sit in our own half because our midfield sucked. We wanted to play football, we just couldn't.
Getting on for nearly two years into his reign as manager. It feels sat here today that his preferred playing style/system and starting XI is further away now than it was the day he took over. That is a massive concern. In the last 4 games alone we have used multiple systems, and played different players in the same positions and the same players in different positions, eg. McTominay’s random role/position vs Arsenal.
The best managers pick a clear system and then pick the best players to implement it. We continue to seem to work in reverse and wonder why we are still pushing water uphill.
The best managers pick a clear system and then pick the best players to implement it. We continue to seem to work in reverse and wonder why we are still pushing water uphill.
He has a difficult problem at his hands. Right wing is not producing the quality, Greenwood is a good finisher but he needs to create more assists if he wants to be a regular there. Having AWB as the RB also doesn't help in attack. Defensive mids need to step-up on their forward passes. I think once Martial is back Rashford will provide the width and create the space for our central mids to make more plays. I'm looking forward to seeing how Ole manage Pogba and Bruno. This Man Utd side has quality but needs to find the right balance and tactics to get the best out of them.
PS: I was really dissapointed with his decision to leave two defensive mids on while loosing.
PS: I was really dissapointed with his decision to leave two defensive mids on while loosing.
The whole “Ole is a bad coach/amateur/doesn’t know what he’s doing” thing is getting incredibly tiresome by now, especially when he’s proved himself more than capable. And is significantly more qualified as a coach than any of these idiots slinging shit at him on a daily basis.
What’s clear however is that he’s still experimenting with formations and tactics, he’s found methods that work but whenever he looks to branch out tactically it hasn’t necessarily always been a success. The bigger issue is the motivation of the players on a game by game basis. Whether that’s something he needs to instill in the team I don’t know, but no amount of tactics will save a team that doesn’t turn up.
What’s clear however is that he’s still experimenting with formations and tactics, he’s found methods that work but whenever he looks to branch out tactically it hasn’t necessarily always been a success. The bigger issue is the motivation of the players on a game by game basis. Whether that’s something he needs to instill in the team I don’t know, but no amount of tactics will save a team that doesn’t turn up.
Brilliant post mate.
Generally believe it's Ole's last week if he drops points against Everton he'll be gone.
If we don't get top 4 this season we'll be crippled for finances, Ed isn't gonna wait much longer to pull the trigger.
If we don't get top 4 this season we'll be crippled for finances, Ed isn't gonna wait much longer to pull the trigger.
Yeah, we totally disagree in this. It is like we are watching different team and different match. Imo, against Arsenal we were sitting deep with deep defence and two dmc and tried to score quickly after getting possession. Our main plan is to play direct.
Also, we played like that in every game this season except Newcastle.
But that is only my opinion. Could be wrong
Well to see the approach is defensive or not imo the best way is to look at how low/high the defensive line is when the team is in possession and the ball is in the opposite half.
Talk of the Jose days for example. Whenever we're in possession and the ball was in the other half our CB stayed in our own half, usually around the middle of that half or slightly higher. Our two midfielders and our FB usually would be around the middle line. Thus the famous huge gaps between our lines. That's a defensive approach.
Now under Ole.
Prior to the signing of Bruno he'd play counter attack against stronger opponents. But still we'd see our defensive line pushed a bit higher, also our midfielders higher than in the Jose days. We did not sit deep like the days under Jose but we still tried to play as safe as possible and did not commit many players to attack. In matches against weaker opponents who sit deep with a low block we played with a higher defensive line and committed more players to attack but we were generally clueless. So came the famous 'Ole doesn't know how to break a low block', or 'Ole only knows how to counter'.
After the signing of Bruno and especially after the Covid break he employed a different approach. Our defensive line was usually very high when we're in possession and the ball was in the other half. Our CB would stay around the middle line. Sometime beyond that. Our FB pushed very high up and played like wingers. Our midfielders were right before the opponent final third. We committed literally everyone except DDG to attack. That's an attack approach.
That's what I believe. Already losing money due to Covid. Don't want to lose champions league revenue as well
I'm trying to remain hopeful, but Ole needs points. And quick.
The Arsenal game was an opportunity to kick-on by replicating our CL form in the league. But we just look so out of sorts. Post-lockdown there was a simplicity and clarity to our performances and team selection. But the lack of rotation was never going to be sustainable and the fixtures were kind to us. But now we look muddled. Caught between formations, tactics and personnel. Ole's in-game decision-making against Chelsea and Arsenal has felt messy to say the least.
We know what's possible when he gets things right and the players respond in kind. We've seen it. But the inconsistency is infuriating.
I'm curious to see how the starting XI might perform with the return Martial, coupled with the additions of Telles, VdB and even Tuanzebe. And Cavani could have something to offer too.
All eyes on the Everton game.
The Arsenal game was an opportunity to kick-on by replicating our CL form in the league. But we just look so out of sorts. Post-lockdown there was a simplicity and clarity to our performances and team selection. But the lack of rotation was never going to be sustainable and the fixtures were kind to us. But now we look muddled. Caught between formations, tactics and personnel. Ole's in-game decision-making against Chelsea and Arsenal has felt messy to say the least.
We know what's possible when he gets things right and the players respond in kind. We've seen it. But the inconsistency is infuriating.
I'm curious to see how the starting XI might perform with the return Martial, coupled with the additions of Telles, VdB and even Tuanzebe. And Cavani could have something to offer too.
All eyes on the Everton game.
When you put Fred as the DM and the McTominay alongside him that's defensive. If he had put Matic as the DM and played Fred as box to box it would have been more attacking.
The problem is take out Martial and there is no one who can hold the hold up. Even he is not as good as the top strikers in holding the ball up.
Ole is not a top class coach anyway.
The problem is take out Martial and there is no one who can hold the hold up. Even he is not as good as the top strikers in holding the ball up.
Ole is not a top class coach anyway.
If he doesn't fully trust Matic in there which looks to be the case then he should have gone out a bought someone in that position during the transfer window
We are not allowed to state the obvious mate.
All the scouse folks like Murphy are worried that United may actually show some ambition by sacking Ole.
Hes definitely a bad coach. Two years as manager and we've still no defined style of play. What on earth were we trying to achieve on Sunday? We're a mid table team and we play like one. Game raise against all the big sides and awful against everyone else.
I don't think he's getting sacked during the season.
Although I'm not at all happy with the start to the season, I'm still just barely for keeping him. I really enjoyed the win against Leipzig but then the shit show served up against Arsenal was pitiful and one point at home to Chelsea and Arsenal is nowhere near good enough.
I said at the end of last season that he deserved to stay on, as 3rd was the best we could have hoped for. Thing is, that third place finish was batshit crazy and a sequence of results like that for us, Chelsea and Leicester was insane. I wasn't happy with our two meek defeats in both semi finals at all. My rationale was that he deserved to show what he could do this season. What I expected from him this season to justify staying on longer; was a comfortable top four finish, discernable improvements from a tactical/coaching perspective and some semblance of a settled system that can press and be press resistant. So far it's certainly been more miss than hit.
I like the squad he's bulit and he's made some positive changes during his tenure, but ultimately, I've never seen much tangible progress from him to indicate that he's top level. He really needs to be winning the majority of our next 6/7 games, but if we remain as erratic as we have been, the season will become a shit show. The problem for me, is that if we sack him in the next few months, we would likely hire Poch who I'm not sure is the right man at all. I would rather just give him the season and go for another manager in the summer when more would be open to leaving their clubs. Another mid-season change will only bring about the wrong appointment no doubt. Though if this patchy form and constant changing of tactics continues, it'll be hard to really get behind him.
I said at the end of last season that he deserved to stay on, as 3rd was the best we could have hoped for. Thing is, that third place finish was batshit crazy and a sequence of results like that for us, Chelsea and Leicester was insane. I wasn't happy with our two meek defeats in both semi finals at all. My rationale was that he deserved to show what he could do this season. What I expected from him this season to justify staying on longer; was a comfortable top four finish, discernable improvements from a tactical/coaching perspective and some semblance of a settled system that can press and be press resistant. So far it's certainly been more miss than hit.
I like the squad he's bulit and he's made some positive changes during his tenure, but ultimately, I've never seen much tangible progress from him to indicate that he's top level. He really needs to be winning the majority of our next 6/7 games, but if we remain as erratic as we have been, the season will become a shit show. The problem for me, is that if we sack him in the next few months, we would likely hire Poch who I'm not sure is the right man at all. I would rather just give him the season and go for another manager in the summer when more would be open to leaving their clubs. Another mid-season change will only bring about the wrong appointment no doubt. Though if this patchy form and constant changing of tactics continues, it'll be hard to really get behind him.
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He will be gone. I was on the fence about if he will be the manager to lead us back to the top, but I think I've seen enough now to know he won't be.
I just think the days of pragmatic management without a set ideology is gone. Most of the managers who fall in that category aren't nearly as successful as they were.
We aren't a pressing team - our pressing is very disorganised and slow, teams easily play out of it from the back, we aren't an offensive team, we regularly give up initiative in the big games.
Not really sure what we are tbh. We seem to be a counter attacking team with very good individual players.
I just think the days of pragmatic management without a set ideology is gone. Most of the managers who fall in that category aren't nearly as successful as they were.
We aren't a pressing team - our pressing is very disorganised and slow, teams easily play out of it from the back, we aren't an offensive team, we regularly give up initiative in the big games.
Not really sure what we are tbh. We seem to be a counter attacking team with very good individual players.
The worst is the half press. It is better not to press at all in this case. We seem to have our forwards too far from each other. Why our presing is so bad is also because of our lack of movement both with the ball and without the ball. That is why other teams find it so easy to by pass our press. He needs help from his coaches but his coaches are more inexperienced than him. They never had any top level coaching. So everything is on him to solve and he has not had any top level coaching either.
Our board may be incompetent but they aren't that moronic.
I've been thinking this. It's so easy to bypass its embarassing. Surely we are just wasting energy.
Really hope our next manager isn't like this.
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