How many passes did Arsenal make before the penalty against Pogba?
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
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The more pressure that is applied to Ole the more defensive his set-ups get. This the complete opposite to Klopp and Pep.
We have a team that is good enough to play on the front foot.
We have a team that is good enough to play on the front foot.
Imo his decision of not changing until halftime is understandable, and quite normal.
Managers usually make tactical changes or subs in the first half only when there's something utterly wrong with the performance. Like your team is losing 2-0 3-0 25' in. Or some player clearly has a super super bad day. And changing tactical formation is actually more complicated than most people think. It basically can't be done by just shouting some touchline instructions. This is not FM. You want to change your tactical plan, the one you spent days prior to the match instructing your players. So most managers would wait till half time to make tactical changes. So the players could gather together and have a clear understanding of what the manager wants to. It's still 0-0 till half time so imo it's ok.
Tbf after half time we played pretty well, much better. I still remember we dominated possession like 75% to 25% in the first 10-15 minutes of the second half and created some chances. But then came the stupid penalty. And after that he got wrong with his subs and we dominated the possession again, imo largely because Arsenal decided to stay low to defend their lead. But we never looked like we'd score.
Well, except the €54m more we spent on our squad than Arsenal since Solskjaer's appointment. There's that gap. Calling €300m in two years "lack of resources" is just mind-boggling.
The 7 years thing surely was some attempt at sarcasm, right? Just forgot the white text?
He was wrong in starting Pogba who cannot get the basics right. Should've started VDB over him and this would've not been a disaster. Fine margins changes games.
The more i watch analysis of the game the more i worry about Ole as a manager. I can't understand why he set up the way he did. We look poorly coached at the best of times, but the diamond midfield was a crazy idea. Packing 4 midfielders, two of who play a totally different way to the other two, into a single midfield? Expecting two full backs who we know aren't great going forward to provide all the width? We looked lethargic because you could tell the players didn't know where they were supposed to be.
Football at this level has to be done without pause for thought. Fred needs to know if he moves 10 yards forward to close the ball carrier, McTominay moves in to cover the Arsenal player now in space, or Pogba needs to know if he gets the ball on the halfway line Bruno will move to his left to provide an option. There was none of that. We looked like we were playing that way for the first time, because we were. Two years in this kind of thing should be a distant memory.
Football at this level has to be done without pause for thought. Fred needs to know if he moves 10 yards forward to close the ball carrier, McTominay moves in to cover the Arsenal player now in space, or Pogba needs to know if he gets the ball on the halfway line Bruno will move to his left to provide an option. There was none of that. We looked like we were playing that way for the first time, because we were. Two years in this kind of thing should be a distant memory.
Ole was outsmarted against Arsenal. Probably thought that they would dominate on the ball, and therefore fielded a team that earlier has been good standing deep and running counterattacks. Problem was that Arteta was prepared for this, and knew that we would struggle to break through a well-structured defence.
Ole has got it right more than often in these kind of matches. Against the better teams who dominate us on the ball. What makes me lose faith in him is that his tactical setups is so dependant on who we are playing, and therefore often changes from week to week. I know that even the best managers obviously look at their opponents and possibilities to exploit them. But there needs to be a identity that seeps through the way we build up play and create changes in most matches. It doesn't look like we have that now. We look clueless against the lesser teams, and our only tool against the top teams are a solid defence and counterattacks.
At this point of Ole's tenure, I would have hoped to see more of a direction. He talks a lot about the mentality and attitude of the players he have brought in. That is fine and all. But if his tactics doesn't provide a structure to win games, no matter how they play, the mentality and attitude won't do it alone.
Ole has got it right more than often in these kind of matches. Against the better teams who dominate us on the ball. What makes me lose faith in him is that his tactical setups is so dependant on who we are playing, and therefore often changes from week to week. I know that even the best managers obviously look at their opponents and possibilities to exploit them. But there needs to be a identity that seeps through the way we build up play and create changes in most matches. It doesn't look like we have that now. We look clueless against the lesser teams, and our only tool against the top teams are a solid defence and counterattacks.
At this point of Ole's tenure, I would have hoped to see more of a direction. He talks a lot about the mentality and attitude of the players he have brought in. That is fine and all. But if his tactics doesn't provide a structure to win games, no matter how they play, the mentality and attitude won't do it alone.
Resources need to be spent well. 54m, as we know well, is just the cost of a anti-Brazilian.
The 7 years thing is totally serious. The reason why we had SAF for so long, and the reason why he was so good while he was here was because he was allowed time. I think Ole seems to care about the club, has the right ideas and is a far better choice, 2 years in, then to start again. We have tried the "best out there" strategy already, and now will either have people with no connection to our club like Nagelsmann or Pochettino (their football is not United style) or start with homegrown players like Giggs who haven't demonstrated their quality at the highest level.
In the end, I don't really care about who our manager is. I just want them to have enough time (literally, 7 years) and have United ideas about football. At United, you must play the right type of football first and, only then, hopefully win. I watched Mourinho win the EL and Carabao Cup and got no joy because of the awful way in which we played.
Imo he set up a diamond because he want to play both Pogba and Bruno. And that diamond worked against Leipzig.
Problem is in the match against Leipzig we had VDB instead of Bruno and Matic instead of McT.
Imo VDB's job in that match was to keep possession, link play and support Pogba as the main creator. And help Fred/Matic in defence. Matic was the DM and Fred was the ball winning mid. Everyone was played to their best role and strength.
The last match he deployed both Bruno and Pogba. Imo both were expected to create. Fred was deployed as a DM but he's no DM. McT was McT he's a destroyer. The midfield lost the balance as no one did the job of keeping possession and linking the play. We couldn't move the ball forward.
In the second half imo we reverted to our usual 4231 with Pogba as the LW and we played pretty well until that penalty. After that I have no idea what was our formation or tactical shape. It's still that 4231 I think.
Glad everyone is starting to see this. It was always there to see that this guys struggles to keep things simple. "but but but he is the only one trying to create" brigade can go and do one.
I cannot fathom the 2 CDM switch... also bringing Fernandes off; the mind boggles.
I'm sorry but this 7 years thing is just insane. You're essentially saying we shouldn't have any expectations at all for nearly a decade. That is a job everyone would love. You can half-arse it for seven years without any consequences, on the off chance that you're a once-in-a-generation manager.
By the way, how is Nagelsmann's or Pochettino's football less of a United style than Solskjaer's? I'm not sure what Solskjaer's football IS at this stage, apart from counter-attacking - surely you don't mean that United should always play on the counter first and foremost?
It can only be described as plucky underdogs with a lethal counter attack.
When the expectation is on us to dominate we look like Stoke after a night out on the piss.
To me it looked like the fullbacks were instructed not to push forward in the first half. I can't really remember a time when they got up and supported the midfield. Every time the ball went into midfield, Arsenal had a man tight to our players and there was no support coming from AWB or Shaw so we were forced to keep passing backwards which only invited Arsenal to press us even higher. As you say, our fullbacks aren't particularly great at going forward but I thought a change in their positioning would have at least stopped us being camped in our own half for so long.
Agreed, and we had a lot more energy in midfield against Leipzig. Matic was allowed to sit a little, run less than the others and concentrate on sweeping up, whilst Fred pressed with assistance from VDB, and all three of them set up for Pogba to roam, create and lose the ball. Against Arsenal we had our best presser in Fred sitting deep and well away from where he is most effective, McTominay badly doing what Fred should have been doing, and our most expansive player in Pogba asked to keep it simple and link with Bruno. We were not terrible in midfield vs. Arsenal but it was obvious players were having to think about their roles.
It's becoming very clear Pogba and Bruno can't play together in midfield. We need two players to support either of them and when both play that leaves too many problems elsewhere.
This also all touches on another problem with Ole. You don't get the impression there is a bigger plan. He tries lots of things until he gets lucky and finds something that works. Then that's all we do for the next few games, until it fails miserably, then we go back to trial and error.
Tbh I don't blame him for trying new things.
Nothing works forever unless you have a squad that is miles above the rest. No tactic is perfect and eventually other managers would find a way to tackle yours. It happens with every managers. So you'd need to make tactical changes, lineup changes accordingly to your opponents. Sometime it works, sometime it doesn't. It's normal. What counts is the ratio between the number of times it work and doesn't work.
I only hope he'd realise the current Pogba is not made for the PL. The sooner he got that the better for the club and himself.
Absolutely. Zero game intelligence player. Ole's going down with him if he continues to start games.
Every losses people want him out, every wins people want him in.
Recycle.
Recycle.
Am i the only one here who has problem with his defensive mentality? I don't mind being defensive in some games but with us it is main plan in every game. Our approach to the game lile we are bottom table club. Since minute one we stay on our half and wait for counter. And those counters are not some whole team move. It is with two or 3 players max. Most of our counter attacks goals are scored by individial magic. Bruno hits long ball to Rashford and Martial and then they score a goal.
Watching us is like watching WBA
Watching us is like watching WBA
Ole is too passive and teams eventually reflect the personality of their managers. It's one thing to get it wrong but he could have changed it at half time but it seems he didn't understand what the problem was or sat there and hoped for the best.
As a fan base we need to get away from this are you Ole in or Ole out carry on .
It's more than Ole . The Fans who want him gone blame everything on him the fans who want him to stay can't put any blame on him .
For me yesterday was 100% the managers fault .
During the week the diamond worked great because we had players in their best positions . Matic at the base with Fred attacking from the right of the diamond .
Yday Ole thought it was a great idea to drop Matic and put Fred at the base while using McT on the right . After 10 minutes it was obvious to see McT was out of his depth in that position. VDB is excellent in that role so why is he on the bench .
We have the players at the club to compete against the best but only when the manager picks the right team.
It's more than Ole . The Fans who want him gone blame everything on him the fans who want him to stay can't put any blame on him .
For me yesterday was 100% the managers fault .
During the week the diamond worked great because we had players in their best positions . Matic at the base with Fred attacking from the right of the diamond .
Yday Ole thought it was a great idea to drop Matic and put Fred at the base while using McT on the right . After 10 minutes it was obvious to see McT was out of his depth in that position. VDB is excellent in that role so why is he on the bench .
We have the players at the club to compete against the best but only when the manager picks the right team.
Which is probably why Spurs are nasty SOB's.
I dont think there is a top club in the world that would have kept a manager on after going 5 home games without a win. That's a disgrace, really.
Ole has been extremely fortunate that the ground is empty. The pressure on him would be a lot more if there were fans there.
I really don’t understand what he is trying to do. There is a width in last night formation basically 6 players defending in our half @ home!!!! Arsenal press and we struggle to get the ball up field. McT and Pogba are big boys, surely De Gea could pass a high ball to them. I have heart attack seeing our players pass the ball inside our half. I don’t see Greenwood and Rushford pulling the Arsenal out of position. Everything was in front of Arsenal, even if the crosses come in there is nobody to attack it. I almost guarantee you that we will finish 7-10 place. Ole will be sack by December which we should have done last year. Joke!
When you look for improvement in results and style of play, I’m yet to see anything consistent from Ole and his team.
He’s overseen a net spend that is one of the largest in world football yet scraping in the CL on 66 points is the best we’ve seen.
Our midfield (which has had 2 high profile arrivals in the last 2 windows) gets overrun and out played in the vast majority of games - particularly by lower level sides.
There isn’t one non United supporting fan anywhere that wants to see him sacked - that tells you everything. Even credible pundits question how he got the job and why he is still here.
This isn’t about Woodward’s inability as CEO, he doesn’t coach or pick the side. He has given Ole lots of players to improve but he clearly isn’t capable of moving this team up a level. Sticking with Ole out of emotional attachment will be the biggest mistake this club ca make right now.
He’s overseen a net spend that is one of the largest in world football yet scraping in the CL on 66 points is the best we’ve seen.
Our midfield (which has had 2 high profile arrivals in the last 2 windows) gets overrun and out played in the vast majority of games - particularly by lower level sides.
There isn’t one non United supporting fan anywhere that wants to see him sacked - that tells you everything. Even credible pundits question how he got the job and why he is still here.
This isn’t about Woodward’s inability as CEO, he doesn’t coach or pick the side. He has given Ole lots of players to improve but he clearly isn’t capable of moving this team up a level. Sticking with Ole out of emotional attachment will be the biggest mistake this club ca make right now.
Maybe true, but if that's the case why play a diamond? It's asking for us to be overrun down the flanks.
Like i say, every game our setup and tactics is like we are spinning a roulette wheel. There's no clear direction. Sometimes we get it right but far too often we get it wrong.
There was nothing defensive yesterday it was just pure clueless tactics. Defensive was what arteta put in and put in effectively. We were meanwhile just not even there. Naturally when a team looks so bad people come with a conclusion that it was defensive. No that was not defensive, it was just clueless.
No he didn't plan to go defensive yesterday. You don't do that playing both Pogba and Bruno. His initial plan just didn't work. He made the changes and it started look like to work then Pogba screwed up. Then he got his subs wrong.
Ole is not a defensive mind manager. He always attack as much as he could, when possible. Look at the matches after the Covid break, Newcastle, Spurs, PSG, Leizpig etc. and you'd see. I still remember me slagging him for going for the attack against Jose Spurs. He is anything but a defensive manager.
Such an illogical view.
I said this a while ago and got hammered for it. We play like a bottom half team and it shows.
The issue is Ole has already said signings have given him more flexibility. And he doesnt need to change players. He just needs to make a change in terms of where players should go (we saw this plenty of times under Fergie where he would tell Rooney to drop deep to a left of midfield to make five there for a while, get control then push him further)
Yesterday, wasnt a case of hindsight after the game or goal either. During the first 15-20 minutes you could see how we were struggling. We could have easily gone to 4231 with the players we had (cos its what he did at start of first half). Its worrying if he needs 15 minutes of break to drum that into players when a message could easily be passed to them.
As we all saw he changed it after half time so I'm of the opinion if he could change that during the first half he'd done it already. It's not like he had no idea of what to do. He clearly saw the problem and had a solution.
I played some football, not professional though and according to my experience the coach can tell us to raise the tempo, sit back, go all out or switch/move one or two players to another position etc. but to change the formation he always had to wait till half time. Because it often involves the whole team and he'd need his board, who to pass to, who move when etc. just lot of stuffs for him to tell us. I have no idea how it is at the professional level though.
Which goes back to my point, why does he wait to do this?
I like Ole, but one of the critiques I have for him is how hes too reactive rather than proactive or waits too long to make a change and by then it could be too late.
We dont know what happens at half time, but theres a train of thought one of the other coaches might have brought it up to him, or one or two of the players may have mentioned it hence his decision to change.
What we do know is he waited too long to change it and then compounded it with changes (which when he finally did) made us more disjointed and ruined any sort of balance.
Well said. We started the second half well when he changed the shape a bit so why couldn't he have done that in the first half itself. His substitution yesterday was shambolic. I was wondering what was the plan after we conceded. It was like just hope and lump the ball forward and hope things work out. I always maintain if you give space to this side then we are probably the most dangerous side but if the opponent just play low block and give zero spaces then we will struggle.
Biggest factor why United have failed for 6 years since Sir Alex is....we play too slow. Starting with defenders who all make 6-7 touches of the ball before passing. Contrast with Liverpool/ Bayern etc.
You didn't read my post did you ?
I did, but youre talking on situations we dont know hence why im still raising the question.
Your answer ends with not knowing how it works at professional level which is fair.
But again, weve seen formations change during games whether its adding an extra man to defence and shifting players or losing a cb, pushinga DM back and having an extra attacker.
Weve seen plenty of examples of this where it doesnt need a break to happen, so ultimately, your answer doesnt really provide anything to say why Ole waited except a possible assumption which doesnt seem valid.
Our formation was 442 diamond.
The change made at half time:
would have kept Rashford top, and pushed Greenwood wide (which hes used to)
It would have moved Pogba further wide and forward then he was (as he was already on the left quite a bit)
It would have meant mCt drops (but as we saw, he was doing that and sometimes standing on Fred so it wouldnt have altered him at all).
And bruno was at the top of the diamond so he stays at the 10.
Defence and Keeper stay the same.
So ultimately, we shift three players from where they were and everything else stays the same. This isnt a radical change to make in game. The only position thats alien is Pogba at the wide of a front three, and youre not telling me we need 15 minutes just to tell him what to do, are you?
Against teams who have that low block, it would make sense to keep on Greenwood and Bruno who will be able to take longer shots (and you never know with deflections or keepers spilling it)
You then have players like Mata, VDB who can move the defence around with one touch (I think we missed Martial for that)
I think we have solutions in our squad to both: high press and low block but we dont utilise it well.
The subs yesterday were baffling on paper, but when you break it down, it shows Ole needs to not be afraid to hurt feelings or pull his 'big' names (eg pogba - which bizarrely hes done before anyway).
You've never ever played football I guess?
Just the type of responses I love reading when trying to debate something- Status