Jadeja isn't a better spinner than peak yuvi in these conditions.
ODI Cricket Draft QF 1: Samid vs Aldo
- Thread starter Akshay
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Jadeja isn't a better spinner than peak yuvi in these conditions.
I find it strange that toss is being talked about so much here, almost like no one wins matches chasing on these pitches. Sri Lanka won the 96 final chasing while India won the 11 qf plus final chasing totals. Also you need spinners to defend totals not rubbish like Gavin larsen. If anything with Sachin, Sanga, Yuvi And Symonds in the team they would have been favourites batting second.
I don't see how Samid chases the big total down. Fine if you guys think Malinga gives runs but his wicket taking ability is undoubted. Bond is bond. Samid relies heavily on his openets, especially Gilly to get quick runs and if they go, it's a huge task.
Yeah, agreed. Larsen is clearly rubbish compared to Warne and murali lining up for the other side.
Eh in case you missed the last line I clearly said that you would have won chasing
Though Samids decision to field first looks like blunder in the beginning, I feel like it might be the right decision.Anyway its batting paradise and any team chasing second would have same advantage with the pitch with lack of spin in aldo's team would never going to help him either.
I don't agree. Yuvraj for India has been a part timer whereas Jadeja is a genuine bowler. I don't remember a time when India didn't have at least 2 spinners in the team besides Yuvraj. (2011 WC had Bhajji Ashwin Piyush Chawla and all in the squad iirc. 2003 had Kumble Bhajji.) whereas Jaddu was India s second spinner in the last WC and was good too. If a prime Yuvraj and prime Jadeja were in the same team, Jadeja would still be likelier to bowl his 10 than yuvi.
I don't see what impact Bond could have that Garner couldn't tbh. Both are all about pace and bounce. In terms of wicket taking ability garner may even edge it.
I don't care about that, my reply is to the part of your post that refers to larsen as shit.
Bond is better wkt taker than Garner, where as later is more economical than former and unplayable at times.
I feel that Aldo's top 3 is just too good, and the finishers as well. Bowlers are a weakness but too much class in the top 3 (plus Yuvraj, any of them have the capacity for big and fast centuries).
Maybe I am underestimating MJJ's team though.
Maybe I am underestimating MJJ's team though.
You are, my team would have destroyed them.
Even if you think so, don't you think jadeja's importance as a bowler compared to yuvi at his prime has something to do with the quality of spinners at our disposal now compared to earlier? Our best spinner by a mile now is ashwin.
I didn't suggest bond is in any way greater than Garner, not sure why you thought so. Garner is the best odi bowler ever imo.
@Varun can you vote for your own team so that the votes are properly reflective.
Done.
them stats look so manufactured I thought they'd been posted by MJJ!
Those are the official player rankings from ICC: http://www.relianceiccrankings.com/alltime/odi/
Obviously they are a bit flawed but my point was that Malinga never was a great bowler. Sure he was good at the death but throughout his career he was a loose cannon that could be dangerous one day and smashed around the park the next. That's kind of reflected in the rankings as well. If he was that good he would've somehow been well within top 100 ranked bowlers regardless how flawed the rankings are.
I would certainly have Ntini as a more consistent bowler than Malinga. As a strike bowler I would rather have Morkel than Malinga. Morkel goes under the radar for some reason, yet his ODI numbers are better than Steyn's. SR less than 30 and economy less than 5 is worth so immensly much.
Just have a look in those top 100s Samid, why post a list which even you know is utterly shit? I stopped reading that when maninder Singh and Paul riefel appeared among the top names. Sachin is at 14th in the batters list
That's true but I don't think any of our spinners in the last 20 years have been better in ODIs. Kumble Bhajji Piyush Chawla pragyan Ojha, all have been decent at best just like Ashwin. In fact Ashwin and Kumble aside all others were below average in ODI s
Not better than whom? Jadeja?
I thought a couple of pages back one of you had claimed that Garner won't be that effective enough in this pitch. That's why I asked. No issues.
Nope. Ashwin
Nope. Ashwin
Think that was Aldo responding to Samid's post saying bond wouldn't be as effective by saying the same goes for Garner.
Kumble and Bhajji were both better than Ashwin. At their respective peaks obviously. Bhajji turned to shit later which clouds opinions on how good he was at his best.
That list is not bit flawed, it is hugely flawed. I agree otherwise though that both Morne and Ntini are better bowlers than Malinga.
Yeah any list that has tendulkar as 14 is shit.
Wtf am I reading here? Yuvi a better bowler than Jadeja?
Yuvi has played 293 games and has bowled in 158 of those. What do we call a bowler like that? A part timer.
Jadeja on the other hand has played 120 games odd games and bowled in almost all. What do we call a bowler like that? A main bowler.
Jadeja has 40 wickets more than Yuvi despite playing 170 games less. What does that say?
Jadeja has superior average, economy and SR. Keep in mind that the average scores are way higher these days as well which makes his numbers even better.
Jadeja is playing second fiddle to Qadir in this game. He is not India's main spinner nor is he my main spinner. Yuvi however is playing this game as the main spinner.
On a spinning track I have one GOAT spinner and one spinner who on average bowls 8 overs per game. Aldo has two part timers. On a spinning track.
Bevan can't bat fast. Right.
185* (132) vs GOAT Asian bowlers in Asia.
185* (132) vs GOAT Asian bowlers in Asia.
Wtf am I reading here? Yuvi a better bowler than Jadeja?
Yuvi has played 293 games and has bowled in 158 of those. What do we call a bowler like that? A part timer.
Jadeja on the other hand has played 120 games odd games and bowled in almost all. What do we call a bowler like that? A main bowler.
Jadeja has 40 wickets more than Yuvi despite playing 170 games less. What does that say?
Jadeja has superior average, economy and SR. Keep in mind that the average scores are way higher these days as well which makes his numbers even better.
Jadeja is playing second fiddle to Qadir in this game. He is not India's main spinner nor is he my main spinner. Yuvi however is playing this game as the main spinner.
On a spinning track I have one GOAT spinner and one spinner who on average bowls 8 overs per game. Aldo has two part timers. On a spinning track.
You're just proving the point I made earlier about the overall quality of the bowling attacks playing a huge role in how much yuvi and jadeja were needed to ball.
The difference in their SR is 1.4. Econ 0.22. Avg 3.63. Yet, ours is a part timer who you claim will go at 7 an over while yours is going to stifle our batting line up consisting of Sachin, waugh, sanga, younis, yuvi, Symonds, Boucher etc with his mastery of spin bowling.
In tests maybe. In ODIs all of them were equally lacklustre.
You're just proving the point I made earlier about the overall quality of the bowling attacks playing a huge role in how much yuvi and jadeja were needed to ball.
The difference in their SR is 1.4. Econ 0.22. Avg 3.63. Yet, ours is a part timer who you claim will go at 7 an over while yours is going to stifle our batting line up consisting of Sachin, waugh, sanga, younis, yuvi, Symonds, Boucher etc with his mastery of spin bowling.
Yeah let's rather look at what they could have bowled rather than what they actually bowled.
Bolded part means feck all. Records are what they are. You know this very well, that's why you went for Sanga over Amla at 3. Amla may have been a good no. 3 but he never played there so we don't know for sure. Same with Yuvi. He might have been a more useful bowler if he was used more but we can't just assume that.
"We live in a world of going by the book." -Aldo
At the end of the day you have 12 overs of spin from part timers while I have 20 overs of spin from regular spin bowlers.
Huh? Did you miss the stats I posted to clearly show there's absolutely nothing between them? You were going on about jadeja's total wickets and how that proves one is a part timers whereas one is a proper bowler which is why I showed you the SR stat for instance which shows the difference is just 1.4 balls per wicket. Basically, jadeja takes a wkts every 43 balls while yuvi takes one every 44 balls.
Aldo was being sarcastic by that post btw, he was saying we had to let go of Amla because you can be sure that atleast a couple of people will ignore his qualities as a player and just go to cricinfo and copy paste his stats as a no 3.
Jadeja is a bowler. He bowls 49,6 balls per match he plays.
Yuvi is a part timer. He bowls 17,0 balls per match he plays.
Jadeja bowls full spells regularly. Jadeja's role in the Indian team is as a very handy second spinner who will rush through his overs and offer reasonable assistance with the bat.
Jadeja's role for me is the exact same role he plays for India. He is my second spinner.
Then you've got Yuvi who on average bowls under 3 overs per match. He has never played a game as the main spinner. His role for you however is that of a main spinner. You are relying on a guy who bowls on average 17 balls per match to bowl 48 balls here. Add to that another 24 balls from another part timer. So in all 72 of your 300 balls will be bowled by part timers.
So on a spinning wicket you don't have any specialist spinners and you are relying on part timers to bowl 1/4 of your whole innings.
http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/en...orderby=default;template=results;type=bowling
matches against test playing nations where yuvraj has bowled 7 or more overs. In Asia, he has an economy of 4.60. Thats not that bad.
I have already explained why this is and it has nothing to do with their qualities as a bowler which is illustrated not just by watching them bowl but also by the stats I posted.
As I said, he hasn't played much international cricket as the main spinner. Looking at those games he was playing alongside Kumble, Harbhajan, Ashwin. He had spinning support from better bowlers at the other end.
Here however he is playing as the main spinner. He isn't playing second fiddle here but is the one supposed to do the attacking.
Zaheer Abbas aka Asian Bradman played only 26 games in Pakistan but here are his centuries:
123 (87)
109 (95)
118 (86)
105 (82)
113 (99)
He was smashing them at a ridiculous strike rate in an era where any SR over 70 was seen as revolutionary. More so in these conditions. Abbas scored 50 000+ career runs so he will have a field day in the middle overs against bowlers that don't take wickets.
Here you are seeing Abbas show no respect to Garner and Marshall.
123 (87)
109 (95)
118 (86)
105 (82)
113 (99)
He was smashing them at a ridiculous strike rate in an era where any SR over 70 was seen as revolutionary. More so in these conditions. Abbas scored 50 000+ career runs so he will have a field day in the middle overs against bowlers that don't take wickets.
Here you are seeing Abbas show no respect to Garner and Marshall.
Jeez, things got out of hand quick. I think I know why Samid opted to bat second, it should be fairly obvious. The way I see it at the moment is
Samid's Opening batsmen slightly(only slightly) better than Aldo's. Aldo has the best batsmen by a mile, but I rate Gilly and Greenidge above Waugh. But it's very close. Just because Sachin was that good, I'd say maybe it is even a little even.
No 3-4 is in Samid's favour. Younis doesn't really cut it for me. It's a relief that he is batting first, else he would have put the run chase in jeopardy.
LMO is in Aldo's favour. But Bevan was awesome, the best finisher comfortably and he usually finished an innings with tail enders at the other end. Can never underestimate this man, even with 8 down. But overall, Aldo's team has more options with the bat, but I do think Bevan could play with the Umpire at the other end and still win the game.
Garner-Morkel-Ntini-Qadir-Jaddu vs Bond-Malinga-Larsen-Streak-Symo-Yuvi is a tough one. Morkel and Ntini are reliable wicket takers and economical as well and along with Garner look like a potent force. I wouldn't call Malinga "Hot and Cold" as Samid put it, but I do think his peak was way too short. He got found out really quickly and ever since, top quality batsmen have been putting him to the sword. I think it's pretty even between Garner-Morkel-Ntini against Bond-Malinga-Streak, though I think Aldo's top 3 bowlers could go for more runs.
Qadir the standout among the spinners. He could wreak havoc if he wanted. I don't really buy into the whole pitch opening up over the day logic to be honest. Like I said before it's just a 100 over game and infact considering Aldo's spin options will start their spell in the middle, more like 70 overs. The pitch will comfortably hold it's own at that stage and throughout the day. As mentioned in the OP, it is a very generic condition, so can't assume that it is going to become more slower as the game progresses like some grounds have been known to do. In the Long and apparently never ending Yuvi-Jaddu battle, think Prath summed it up well, Yuvi the better batsmen who can bowl and Jaddu the bla bla bla. That said, don't think neither would really pick up more than a wicket. But I think Jaddu could complement Qadir very well. Those middle overs, especially if Younis is one of the batsmen, means the runs would have comfortably dried up.
All this said, I still am not sure which way to vote. Slightly leaning towards Samid, but more likely to not vote.
Samid's Opening batsmen slightly(only slightly) better than Aldo's. Aldo has the best batsmen by a mile, but I rate Gilly and Greenidge above Waugh. But it's very close. Just because Sachin was that good, I'd say maybe it is even a little even.
No 3-4 is in Samid's favour. Younis doesn't really cut it for me. It's a relief that he is batting first, else he would have put the run chase in jeopardy.
LMO is in Aldo's favour. But Bevan was awesome, the best finisher comfortably and he usually finished an innings with tail enders at the other end. Can never underestimate this man, even with 8 down. But overall, Aldo's team has more options with the bat, but I do think Bevan could play with the Umpire at the other end and still win the game.
Garner-Morkel-Ntini-Qadir-Jaddu vs Bond-Malinga-Larsen-Streak-Symo-Yuvi is a tough one. Morkel and Ntini are reliable wicket takers and economical as well and along with Garner look like a potent force. I wouldn't call Malinga "Hot and Cold" as Samid put it, but I do think his peak was way too short. He got found out really quickly and ever since, top quality batsmen have been putting him to the sword. I think it's pretty even between Garner-Morkel-Ntini against Bond-Malinga-Streak, though I think Aldo's top 3 bowlers could go for more runs.
Qadir the standout among the spinners. He could wreak havoc if he wanted. I don't really buy into the whole pitch opening up over the day logic to be honest. Like I said before it's just a 100 over game and infact considering Aldo's spin options will start their spell in the middle, more like 70 overs. The pitch will comfortably hold it's own at that stage and throughout the day. As mentioned in the OP, it is a very generic condition, so can't assume that it is going to become more slower as the game progresses like some grounds have been known to do. In the Long and apparently never ending Yuvi-Jaddu battle, think Prath summed it up well, Yuvi the better batsmen who can bowl and Jaddu the bla bla bla. That said, don't think neither would really pick up more than a wicket. But I think Jaddu could complement Qadir very well. Those middle overs, especially if Younis is one of the batsmen, means the runs would have comfortably dried up.
All this said, I still am not sure which way to vote. Slightly leaning towards Samid, but more likely to not vote.
Imo since you've taken the time to consider so much, you should vote. An informed vote based on a slight preference is better than any uninformed vote.
Can't believe Samid is said to have the better openers or even have it called even.
3-4 is closer but again, the so called weakness Younis khan is playing in conditions he was brought up in and excels at. This isn't Australia. Not sure why he's being called slow when the opposition doesn't have quick scorers in the middle at all. Even if he's slightly slower, he'll be batting with the likes of sanga, yuvi, Symonds, Boucher all of whom score very quickly. He would have a role to play and he excels at that especially in these home conditions.
As great as bevan was, think he's being overrated now especially given Samid's short batting lineup. He can't win with an umpire at the other end when the likes of bond and Malinga come to clean the tail up.
Have already cleared this false impression of jadeja and yuvi so I'll not repeat that again.
I just don't see how Samid can chase the total we set down unless Gilly scores a hundred simply because of the rate at which the runs would be required. Ideally, you need atleast 2 players in the top 4 who can score a fast enough 100 in a big chase. Or, you need some big hitters towards the end. Given we have 2 superb wicket takers right at the top, it's a bad position to be in.
3-4 is closer but again, the so called weakness Younis khan is playing in conditions he was brought up in and excels at. This isn't Australia. Not sure why he's being called slow when the opposition doesn't have quick scorers in the middle at all. Even if he's slightly slower, he'll be batting with the likes of sanga, yuvi, Symonds, Boucher all of whom score very quickly. He would have a role to play and he excels at that especially in these home conditions.
As great as bevan was, think he's being overrated now especially given Samid's short batting lineup. He can't win with an umpire at the other end when the likes of bond and Malinga come to clean the tail up.
Have already cleared this false impression of jadeja and yuvi so I'll not repeat that again.
I just don't see how Samid can chase the total we set down unless Gilly scores a hundred simply because of the rate at which the runs would be required. Ideally, you need atleast 2 players in the top 4 who can score a fast enough 100 in a big chase. Or, you need some big hitters towards the end. Given we have 2 superb wicket takers right at the top, it's a bad position to be in.
@Ijazz17 missed quoting you.