ODI Cricket Draft QF 1: Samid vs Aldo
- Thread starter Akshay
- Start date
Am here ^^
Sup. Thoughts?
You guys are still a bowler short, was surprised that you didnt go for saqlain (sanga keeping) but the toss in your favor. Leaning towards voting for you, but will wait to hear more from samid.
Its basically how much of the game can samid's side control in the middle overs, the first and last ten overs should be pretty even.
Sorry. Typo!
Let's see it man to man.
Garner, Ntini, Morkel, Qadir vs Bond, Malinga, Streak, Larsen
Garner, Bond and Malinga are world class bowlers on that list. I'm not sure if Malinga's stock has gone down in last few years but at his peak till the 2011 WC he was possibly the best ODI bowler in the world, and a unique one. Garner and Bond both would ideally be better off in different conditions which suit their style more but let's not pretend they don't matter here. Bond and Malinga are two excellent wicket takers, as opposed to Garner who will have a good yet not as dangerous bowler on the other end.
Secondly, my batting is superior both in terms of quality and depth. His openers are great but I still have the better pair, one of whom is in near home conditions, plus the second highest ODI run scorer of all time is my number 3, good as Abbas was I'll take Sanga ahead of him.
As finishers, he has Bevan and Collingwood and I have Yuvraj and Symonds, even if we agree Bevan is the best of the lot, overall, I have the better pair. Then I have Boucher and Streak, two extremely capable sloggers at the end ones who have delivered in clutch situations, as opposed to Jadeja and Qadir?
And then of course letting me bat first on such a pitch is giving your bowlers a huge task and with the lack of assistance for pace and bounce, it's rather likely given the quality of my top order that I'll get a comfortably big score.
Why has Samid decided to bowl first on a pitch that suits spin and is likely to favor batmen as well? Does not make sense. Bat first, get even a par score, have Garner+Morkel put Sachin/Waugh under pressure to score quickly and then Qadir to assist later on. Possibly a match losing decision.
Still struggling to see how that is a better scenario than Bond+Malinga against Greenidge/Gilchrist when the other pair is being followed by Sanga, a greater ODI batsman than either of those openers. There's a difference in the ability to play a long innings, and one of my three are likely to do that. The stats are already discussed to show that. Batting first, setting the pace of the innings and having it revolve around someone like Tendulkar or Sanga would ensure the required target is set, specially with the explosive middle order that I have. There's a visible difference in terms of scoring big between the two teams, as good as his middle order is there's little variety there. Whereas I have a standout complete top order followed by a run accumulator like Younis and then two brilliant big hitters. It's a better batting unit, simple as, in terms of man to man, variety or depth.
But anyway, yes, anyone would bat first on this wicket, specially when taking the field means bowling to Tendulkar and Waugh. Putting them in their comfort zone can hurt you beyond repair.
Malinga is hit or miss. More so in these conditions. Look at his figures in UAE vs the worst generation of Pakistan batsmen ever for example.
Garner may not take wickets frequently on this pitch but he is equally economical in all conditions. The onus might be on Ntini to get the early wickets and he is well capable of that. Very good record in India, Pakistan and Bangladesh (vs India). Ntini is suited for the subcontinent.
Morkel is also a sensible subcontinent bowler. He will bowl a good length early on and at the death mix it up/favour shorter stuff.
The middle overs with my spin will be your downfall. Jadeja will rush through his overs from one end. Think about it, his economy is 4.8 playing in a day and age where scores below 280 are seen as below par. I can't think of many better second spinners over the last 7-8 years.
At the end of the day you are lacking a proper spinner on a spinning track. Your players may be good players of spin but Abdul Qadir on his day was unplayable. He had all sorts of variations, two googlies, a flipper to go along with his standard delivery.
Younis Khan is an ODI flop.
vs Aus: 15 @ 57
vs Eng: 25 @ 71
vs Ind: 37 @ 86
vs NZ: 26 @ 70
vs SA: 26 @ 66
vs SL: 30 @ 73
vs WI: 27 @ 65
I like Younis in tests. He plays at his own pace and is not bothered by the surroundings. All well and good. But Younis Khan the ODI player is the biggest liability ever.
Let's get the opinion of some Pak supporters (from a Younis Khan "tribute" thread):
vs Aus: 15 @ 57
vs Eng: 25 @ 71
vs Ind: 37 @ 86
vs NZ: 26 @ 70
vs SA: 26 @ 66
vs SL: 30 @ 73
vs WI: 27 @ 65
I like Younis in tests. He plays at his own pace and is not bothered by the surroundings. All well and good. But Younis Khan the ODI player is the biggest liability ever.
Let's get the opinion of some Pak supporters (from a Younis Khan "tribute" thread):
Thank you for everything especially your decision to retire.
You are having a laugh if you think Jadeja's spin will contain the likes of Sachin and Sanga. Prime players, rather destructors, of spin.
You mean the conditions where he has taken majority of his wickets?
You are having a bigger laugh if you think that "Younis Khan is a reliable batsman who is a quality support act and would form crucial and stable partnerships at the middle of the innings".
Out of all the bowlers not only Malinga is the most familiar with these conditions but also his style of play wouldnt be harmed by the conditions as much as Garner's for example. He doesn't rely on bowling short and getting steep bounce, which isn't available here, rather his awkward action and his ability to constantly hit the blockhole was what made him special. He may or may not go for a few runs but at his prime he was one of the most dangerous wicket takers and constantly struck at the start of the innings e.g. WC final 2011. Him and Bond scream wickets, and given how much you rely on your openers to give you a perfect start, facing Bond from one end and Malinga from the other is a formidable ask. Bond is no stranger to getting Gilchrist out, having done so 3 times in 8 games, with twice dislodging his stumps.
Against Ravi Jadeja? Sure. Not any worse than Jadeja himself, who is responsible of providing a much more crucial role of finishing the innings and possibly scoring in the tightest situation of the game. I know where I'll prefer to have my weakest batsman.
Younis on this surface would be at home and the job I've given him couldn't be easier to implement for a batsman of his class. Farcry from the responsibility he had for Pakistan. Nevermind the fact that for his entire time on the crease he'll likely have a well set all time great batsman on the other end on a run friendly pitch looking to accelerate. In fact, Younis is the ideal man to have to see out your spinner and let the finishers have a real go at the rest of the party.
Facing Malinga will apparently be a formidable task for Gilchrist. Yup. Sure.
As opposed to Ntini or Morkel for Sachin, Waugh and Sanga?
Now you're having a laugh if you are going to rate either of them as a better ODI bowler than Malinga. More so in these conditions.
If Yuvraj/Symonds is a better finishing pair than Collingwood/Bevan (which is criminally underrating Collingwood) then Ntini/Morkel is a way better bowling pair than Malinga/Streak.
Your bowling is there for the taking. 12 overs from part timers (with econ. over 5) against world class batsmen is asking for trouble. Plus 10 overs from a leaky Malinga. Say what you want about Ntini but his career economy is 0.8 better than Malinga's. That's a massive difference.
All my openers have to do is see off the opening burst from Bond. In fact, as much as I like Bond we really don't know how he will fare in the subcontinent on dead pitches.
20 overs from Larsen, Symonds and Yuvraj in the middle. Look at their strike rates, just so bad. These are not wicket taking bowlers. My top 4 will have no problems dispatching these three to all corners. Zaheer Abbas ate bowlers like these for breakfast.
Your bowling is there for the taking. 12 overs from part timers (with econ. over 5) against world class batsmen is asking for trouble. Plus 10 overs from a leaky Malinga. Say what you want about Ntini but his career economy is 0.8 better than Malinga's. That's a massive difference.
All my openers have to do is see off the opening burst from Bond. In fact, as much as I like Bond we really don't know how he will fare in the subcontinent on dead pitches.
20 overs from Larsen, Symonds and Yuvraj in the middle. Look at their strike rates, just so bad. These are not wicket taking bowlers. My top 4 will have no problems dispatching these three to all corners. Zaheer Abbas ate bowlers like these for breakfast.
As opposed to Garner who will still be as good as he was? Convenient.
Which one of your batsmen's natural playing style was hitting big? And you seem misinformed about Larsen, he may or may not take wickets but he's surely not going for anywhere as expensive as it would be needed at that stage. Him in tandem with Stream/Yuvraj will pin your already cautious batsmen back, they will pile up on dot balls and increase the pressure. And guess what - you don't have anyone anywhere near Yuvraj's or Symonds' ability to hit a couple of overs for big runs and relieve the pressure.
After allowing me to bat first on a batting surface you yourself don't have neither the quality nor the depth compared to my batting line up. Staying on the pitch isn't going to help that much in a chase if you can't accelerate - who is going to do that for you? Not to mention Malinga at the death is fantastic to bowl to a chasing team.
As for the first line, I don't get it. Collingwood is nowhere near the other three names in that list, less so in these conditions. Bevan was a great finisher but not a big hitter, and Symonds at his peak was as good a finisher as you can ask for, while Yuvraj has spent years doing that job and as I said in the last game, his partnership with Dhoni was one of the greatest finishing pairs the game has seen. So overall, Yuvraj-Symonds is a better finishing pair than Bevan-Collingwood.
What's your logic with Ntini/Morkel > Malinga/Streak? Malinga is the standout name of that lot, he was an exceptional ODI bowler at his peak, and for a period the best in the world. He was the premier strike bowler for a nation that reached back to back WC finals, and largely thanks to him among others.
In any case, whatever the difference there isn't going to make as much difference as your short batting order with the lack of any big hitters to chase down a tough total. Not to mention the quality of my overall batting line up that is simply superior here.
The biggest question of the game is still unanswered.
What is your plan to deal with Sachin Tendulkar, Mark Waugh and Kumara Sangakkara after you have decided to send them to bat on a dry grassless batsman friendly surface that has little support for your opening bowlers?
What is your plan to deal with Sachin Tendulkar, Mark Waugh and Kumara Sangakkara after you have decided to send them to bat on a dry grassless batsman friendly surface that has little support for your opening bowlers?
@Aldo he let you do as you please after he won the toss and your being a bit of a prick about it. Chiill out
@Aldo he let you do as you please after he won the toss and your being a bit of a prick about it. Chiill out
?? Have I said anything offensive or something?
Genuinely asking. I don't mind not posting, but it's a part of a match to argue for your case which is all I believe I have done, but please let me know if I have said something wrong.
Yousuf for Younis would've been a bigger upgrade than Malinga for Gul. There were probably some other better middle order bats available too, can't remember any though.
Because I said that right? Just a few posts above I wrote:
"Garner may not take wickets frequently on this pitch but he is equally economical in all conditions."
I'm well aware that Garner will be less effective on this pitch. So will Bond.
What's this fascination with 'hitting big'? There are other ways to score runs that hitting big. Gilchrist has comfortably the best strike rate of all players in this match. He was a natural striker.
Greenidge was a destructive batsman when he got going. His SR will obviously be on the down side considering the era he played in and the fact that they played 60 over innings back then.
Zaheer Abbas averages 48 @ 85. In Pakistan he was 59 @ 106. 106! His centuries used to come at more than a run a ball. These conditions are perfect for him.
How about Crowe scoring 880 runs in WCs, 55 @ 84?
Cautious batsmen? You seem to be very misinformed about my top order. Younis Khan, that's cautious for you.
I didn't say that Collingwood is a better finisher, I said you are underrating Collingwood. Collingwood's role is to play the support act in the middle order. Rotate the strike, run hard between the wickets. He was never the most talented cricketer but boy didn't his athleticism make up for it. Collingwood was often misused early on in his career so I suggest you look at his contributions at no. 5.
Malinga's highest ODI ranking is 7th. So no, he was never the best in the world. He was along with Gul the best death bowler for a while but never the best bowler overall.
Best ODI rankings ever (batsmen):
1. Viv Richards
2. Zaheer Abbas
13. Gordon Greenidge
14. Sachin Tendulkar
16. Michael Bevan
21. Kumar Sangakkara
24. Mark Waugh
36. Adam Gilchrist
38. Martin Crowe
58. Yuvraj Singh
66. Andrew Symonds
Not in top 100: Paul Collingwood, Younis Khan, Mark Boucher.
Best ODI rankings ever (bowlers):
1. Joel Garner
22. Shane Bond
35. Makhaya Ntini
37. Abdul Qadir
61. Ravindra Jadeja
61. Gavin Larsen
76. Morne Morkel
76. Heath Streak
Not in top 100: Lasith Malinga, Yuvraj Singh, Andrew Symonds.
My players
Aldo's players
5 of my batsmen in top 40. Second best batsman. All my bowlers well within top 100. Best bowler. Not a big surprise that Aldo's 3 bowlers that will be bowling a grand total of 22 overs are nowhere to be seen in the top 100.
1. Viv Richards
2. Zaheer Abbas
13. Gordon Greenidge
14. Sachin Tendulkar
16. Michael Bevan
21. Kumar Sangakkara
24. Mark Waugh
36. Adam Gilchrist
38. Martin Crowe
58. Yuvraj Singh
66. Andrew Symonds
Not in top 100: Paul Collingwood, Younis Khan, Mark Boucher.
Best ODI rankings ever (bowlers):
1. Joel Garner
22. Shane Bond
35. Makhaya Ntini
37. Abdul Qadir
61. Ravindra Jadeja
61. Gavin Larsen
76. Morne Morkel
76. Heath Streak
Not in top 100: Lasith Malinga, Yuvraj Singh, Andrew Symonds.
My players
Aldo's players
5 of my batsmen in top 40. Second best batsman. All my bowlers well within top 100. Best bowler. Not a big surprise that Aldo's 3 bowlers that will be bowling a grand total of 22 overs are nowhere to be seen in the top 100.
to be fair, Bevan doesnt neeed a partner to finish games. He has had partnerships with the likes of Bichel, Hogg, Gillespie and all multiple times. As long as you have a batsman who can get him on strike immediately with the ocassional boundary then its still a dangerous partnership.
That colour coded list has Sachin at 14 in the batsman list ffs 
Btw, it seems Yuvi's last couple of years are clouding judgement about his peak. There's absolutely no way ravindra jadeja can be considered a specialist spinner while yuvi is a part timers who's apparently going to go at 7 a over while bowling 2nd to that middle order.
Yuvi is a decent spinner but cannot lead the line at all. In WC 2011 he had Ashwin as main spinner so he could bowl with less pressure. Tbf Jadeja too isn't good enough to be a main spinner but Qadir is good enough as a front line spinner and Jadeja is capable of supporting him well. Anyway Jadeja is a better spinner than Yuvi, man. Yuvi has good variations with pace and can turn it a bit too. But Jadeja is a very good spinner of the ball getting good turn. Jadeja is a bowler who can bat whereas yuvi is a batsman who can bowl. Yuvi is easily the better player but Jadeja is the better bowler.
Both Morkel and Ntini are better bowlers than Malinga, even in these conditions.
To be fair none of these fast bowlers will be particularly great here to be fair. If Samid had Zak I would have voted for him without a second thought but I don't think ntini or morkel were that superior to malinga bond and all. Especially considering the top order batsman on both sides. So it would seem Samid s bowling is superior. I think Bevan is a decent enough spinner too and can make a difference on this pitch. The question though is whether his batting can match Aldo's. Aldo does have an extra bat in streak. I have doubts about that even though I think he has a strong top 4 and Bevan who is another of my favourites.
Its an old draft tactic, his vote doesnt count and he is hoping for sympathy/draw votes. Really pulling out of all the stops here. them stats look so manufactured I thought they'd been posted by MJJ!
Nah, am saving my manufactured stats for monday!
Ya don't know why Samid kept out Zak. Zak and Morkel would have been my choice. I was talknig Malinga individually. Bond-Malinga combine and Morne-Nitini combine is not a lot of difference although you can say maybe Bond-Malinga have more wicket taking ability. If one looks at stats though and their strike rates, both in Asia as well as overall, both pairs evenly matched. Avg and econ both are slightly in favour of Ntini-Morkel.
wtf is this?
No. Not at all. Malinga being really underrated