Northern Ireland Thread

[Lastwolf]

Hold on a second though, what are the stats for those who want a United Ireland? For both sides I mean. I think the idea of a United Ireland is dying out even on the Catholic side of things although I base that purely on my own friends and interactions. Are there any stats for it?

I seem to recall a referendum on it.

Ddit: I looked it up.

A possible referendum on a united Ireland was included as part of the terms of the Good Friday Agreement. Currently about 42% of the Northern Ireland electorate vote for Irish nationalist parties that oppose the union with Great Britain and support a united Ireland as an alternative, although it is not the only issue at election time so it is difficult to take this figure as a direct indication of levels of support for a united Ireland. A survey taken in 2008 showed support for a united Ireland at 18% and support for Northern Ireland remaining in the United Kingdom at 70%. 8% support independence or other arrangements.

A 2011 survey by the Northern Ireland Life and Times survey found that 52% of Northern Irish Catholics respondents favoured union with Great Britain over a united Ireland.


Given this, is the removal of the flag even relevant ?

 

[Keltoi]

Hold on a second though, what are the stats for those who want a United Ireland? For both sides I mean. I think the idea of a United Ireland is dying out even on the Catholic side of things although I base that purely on my own friends and interactions. Are there any stats for it?

I think its remaining stagnant imo, but once it becomes at the forefront of the political agenda where the population divided reaches parity it will become more prevalent. Again like you I have no figures to hand

If a UI was on the cards tomorrow the Irish Government would flat out reject it. Dropping NI onto the ROI would sink their economy beyond repair. 32 counties of unemployment.

Its not on the card tomorrow though is it? It will be on the cards in 20 years but realistically wont happen for another 40. As you well know economies go up and down so it wouldnt have the same consquences economically for those in the north, look at Irelands economy from the 80s, 90s and 00s. Its bust, boom, bust. Its the way economies work and in a situation where a vote comes up the 26 counties could have a vastly better economy to the 6 counties or visa versa.

 

[The Neviller]

When did I say they mean less? I dont think that a UI would be automatically offending those who died (in the case of anyone who was non police force or army, died wrongly). Many of those who died as a result of violence on both sides as you well know were ordinary civilians who were just going about their day be it in Omagh or attending a funeral in Milltown when they lost their lives and were not nessarily those opposing a UI, heck a lot of the victims of the Real IRA bomb in omagh where Catholic.. My point was that Irish nationalism while most closely associated with northern Ireland and the Troubles in not exclusive to that region or time period.

How can you say it's an offence to the memory of those who died fighting for Irish unity for it not to be achieved, but not accept that a United Ireland, where Sinn Fein/IRA get what they've killed innocents civilians for is an offence to the memory of the innocents, on both sides, who died at their hands? Are they just collateral damage?

 

[Keltoi]

I seem to recall a referendum on it.

The Irish people were never given a referendum on partition in 1921 nor in 1998. 1998 GFA was about peace not endorsing partition.

 

[Keltoi]

How can you say it's an offence to the memory of those who died fighting for Irish unity for it not to be achieved, but not accept that a United Ireland, where Sinn Fein/IRA get what they've killed innocents civilians for is an offence to the memory of the innocents, on both sides, who died at their hands? Are they just collateral damage?

What Im saying is there is a difference, those innocent civilians died because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time and those who died in the active pursuit of Irish Unity. As you well know TN bombs are indiscriminate, they just blow up regardless of who its victims are be it protestants, catholics, nationalist, loyalists or people who simply didnt give a shit.

 

[Lastwolf]

The Irish people were never given a referendum on partition in 1921 nor in 1998. 1998 GFA was about peace not endorsing partition.

Not as such no, I seem to recall a poll or whatever of the subject at the time (1998), worked out about 55% against against.

I updated my post with some more up to date information. Which says 70% in favour of the Union.

Which begs the question, what the feck was this flag shit about ?

 

[Keltoi]

Not as such no, I seem to recall a poll or whatever of the subject at the time (1998), worked out about 55% against against.

I updated my post with some more up to date information. Which says 70% in favour of the Union.

Which begs the question, what the feck was this flag shit about ?

Im just as clueless as you mate

 

[The Neviller]

What Im saying is there is a difference, those innocent civilians died because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time and those who died in the active pursuit of Irish Unity. As you well know TN bombs are indiscriminate, they just blow up regardless of who its victims are be it protestants, catholics, nationalist, loyalists or people who simply didnt give a shit.

So you don't think it would be viewed as an offence to those who died indiscriminately at the hands of a terrorist organisation to see that terrorist organisation achieve the aims they indiscriminately killed for?

Your location gives a clue as to your ideology. The organisation he was a member of murdered innocents for years, in the name of Irish unity. You can't just pretend it didn't happen, or that those lives mean less than someone who died fighting for their cause. They mean more, in fact. Because they died for feck all. They died at the hands of organisations, on both sides, who didn't give two fecks who they got, as long as they got someone. Dying whilst fighting a cause is almost expected. Dying while out shopping in a city centre on a Saturday afternoon isn't.

 

[Lastwolf]

What Im saying is there is a difference, those innocent civilians died because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time and those who died in the active pursuit of Irish Unity. As you well know TN bombs are indiscriminate, they just blow up regardless of who its victims are be it protestants, catholics, nationalist, loyalists or people who simply didnt give a shit.

You can't die in pursuit of uniting something that wasn't broken until after you died. If your talking about during the troubles, then a comparable amount died 'in defense of the union'.

Whilst it's a terrible shame anyone had to die, it doesn't make there death any less meaningful or meaningless that things today are as they are.

The Northern Ireland of today is a lot better for all concerned than the NI of the 70's.

 

[Keltoi]

So you don't think it would be viewed as an offence to those who died indiscriminately at the hands of a terrorist organisation to see that terrorist organisation achieve the aims they indiscriminately killed for?

When did I say that TN? I said the two were different as someone who dies indiscriminately isnt someone who has died because they're against/for the union, they died because they were there. My point about the memory was that I as an Irishman could never vote against Irish unity. The majority in the south were against the violence in the name of republicanism yet they still support Irish unity on the whole, that was my point.

Your location gives a clue as to your ideology.

Havent you seen my tagline? Im a closet unionist.

The organisation he was a member of murdered innocents for years, in the name of Irish unity.

I admire Bobby Sands as a person independently of the actions of the organisation that he belonged to. He was a great writer poet and a leader of men, had he grown up in any normal society he would have been prime minister/president.

 

[peterstorey]

Not as such no, I seem to recall a poll or whatever of the subject at the time (1998), worked out about 55% against against.

I updated my post with some more up to date information. Which says 70% in favour of the Union.

Which begs the question, what the feck was this flag shit about ?

It should have been a poll of Ireland, the geographical and historical entity, not just the colonial six-county unit.

 

[Irwinwastheking]

It should have been a poll of Ireland, the geographical and historical entity, not just the colonial six-county unit.

Not really Pete. While that would be great and ideal from a nationalist POV, it's unrealistic and also with the whole area of self determination for the people of NI being enshrined in the GFA and the Irish constitution being amended to allow for that self determination a poll of the people of NI will be the only one that counts.

 

[peterstorey]

Not really Pete. While that would be great and ideal from a nationalist POV, it's unrealistic and also with the whole area of self determination for the people of NI being enshrined in the GFA and the Irish constitution being amended to allow for that self determination a poll of the people of NI will be the only one that counts.

It was the sensible and pragmatic choice to let people live in peace but let's not forget it wasn't proper self-determination for the island.

 

[The Neviller]

When did I say that TN? I said the two were different as someone who dies indiscriminately isnt someone who has died because they're against/for the union, they died because they were there. My point about the memory was that I as an Irishman could never vote against Irish unity. The majority in the south were against the violence in the name of republicanism yet they still support Irish unity on the whole, that was my point.

And my point was that if you view it an offence to the memory of those who died fighting for their cause to not press ahead with the fight for a United Ireland then you also have to acknowledge that seeing a terrorist organisation achieve their aims is an offence to the memory of those who died indiscriminately at that terrorist organisations hands.

Havent you seen my tagline? Im a closet unionist.

You need to come out.

I admire Bobby Sands as a person independently of the actions of the organisation that he belonged to. He was a great writer poet and a leader of men, had he grown up in any normal society he would have been prime minister/president.

He probably could have been whatever he wanted to be, he was clearly a clever man. He decided to be a terrorist though.

 

[Lastwolf]

I don;t think so, we (the north) decide wither we want to unite, they can reject if they so please.

 

[Decotron]

Im 33 and have yet to hear any member of my immediate family or friends ever say they'd prefer or want a United Ireland. Id be also surprised if there were many real economic benefits to it...

 

[The Neviller]

I don;t think so, we (the north) decide wither we want to unite, they can reject if they so please.

Yeah, if it's going to be a referendum it needs to be in two parts. One for Northern Ireland to decide if they want a United Ireland and one for the Republic to decide whether they want us or not. I'm not sure the second vote would go the way many in the Nationalist community in the North would like it to.

 

[Irwinwastheking]

It was the sensible and pragmatic choice to let people live in peace but let's not forget it wasn't proper self-determination for the island.

Aye, I tend to agree, but unfortunately we're about 100 years past that being a realistic option. I'd say almost all British from the mainland wish you had got out 100%when you had the chance. NI has been a hell of a lot more hassle than its been worth for you guys.

 

[Keltoi]

Yeah, if it's going to be a referendum it needs to be in two parts. One for Northern Ireland to decide if they want a United Ireland and one for the Republic to decide whether they want us or not. I'm not sure the second vote would go the way many in the Nationalist community in the North would like it to.

Highly unlikely that it would fail in the south, all major political parties (that Im aware of, labour have no policy on it but many of its members are ex RSF or Workers party) support reunification.

And my point was that if you view it an offence to the memory of those who died fighting for their cause to not press ahead with the fight for a United Ireland then you also have to acknowledge that seeing a terrorist organisation achieve their aims is an offence to the memory of those who died indiscriminately at that terrorist organisations hands.

You dont seem to understand my point, you are saying a UI is an insult to innocents that died, my point is that the two arent tangable when comparing wolfe tone dying and a man who was a funeral in milltown or out shopping in omagh. Wolfe Tone, James Connelly, Bobby Sands died for their beliefs, those who died in Omagh, Derry, Ballymurgh as a result of violences on nationalist, unionist or british state sponsorsed violence died because they we in the wrong place at the wrong time.

He probably could have been whatever he wanted to be, he was clearly a clever man. He decided to be a terrorist though.

The word terrorist is one that one uses to delegitimse a cause, when in reality it is the use of violence to incite terror. Now you could call Bobby Sands a terrorist but the same applies to British forces in the north who themselves were terrorists under the guise of the "our boys protecting democracy". You might say Sands decided to join the IRA but in reality all of those in the IRA were driven into their hands by the discrimination they suffered at the hands of the unionist government and the "protestant state for a protestant people" attitude and the similanious ignorance from Westminister. The Troubles was a bed of unionism and the British governments own making. People like Bobby Sands choose the military path as the political one wasnt working, yes they chose to be a "terrorist" as you refer to them but in reality they were driven into their hands by the sectarian majority that discriminated against them since the inception of the state. Remember your British government once labled Mandela a terrorist, will history judge him as a terrorist or a revolutionary leader? I suspect it will be the later.

 

[Irwinwastheking]

Yeah, if it's going to be a referendum it needs to be in two parts. One for Northern Ireland to decide if they want a United Ireland and one for the Republic to decide whether they want us or not. I'm not sure the second vote would go the way many in the Nationalist community in the North would like it to.

If it came down to the second vote it would go through with a decent majority.

 

[Keltoi]

Aye, I tend to agree, but unfortunately we're about 100 years past that being a realistic option. I'd say almost all British from the mainland wish you had got out 100%when you had the chance. NI has been a hell of a lot more hassle than its been worth for you guys.

Look at any polls taken in the British mainland, their fellow Brits dont want them. They constantly show they support Irish unity. Their political establishment show they dont want them, Westministers stance is they have no political or economic interest in the north. The north costs them Billions to run, out of the 60 million Brits theres not many on the mainland who give two shits about the north.

 

[The Neviller]

If that's the romantic notion with which you view an organisation that you've admitted committed murders indiscriminately then there is little point debating this further, we won't see eye to eye on it I'm afraid.

I view the murder of innocents as wrong, whether committed by the IRA or the UVF or whoever else it may be. Whereas it's clear from that sentence of yours that you see the IRA's actions as legitimate, because they had a cause, and I find that appalling. A loyalist could legitimise the murder of a taxi driver in the same light, they were protecting their community. He'd be talking bollocks too. If the "enemy" as the Republic movement viewed them, the state and the armed forces, we're the IRA's only targets I could almost accept the romanticised view you've given it, but when an organisation plants a bomb in a city centre on a busy Saturday, and deliberately gives a garbled warning in the hope that people are evacuated into the path of a car bomb and not away from it, then any legitimate fight you feel they may have is undermined, by deliberate and merciless murder of innocents who weren't fighting any cause.

I get your point that dying for a cause is different, I haven't disagreed with that. I just don't see why you put more weight on someone dying for a belief than someone dying because an organisation decided to blow them to bits, not giving a single care who was there or who died. If anything the lives of the innocents should be remembered more vividly. The deaths of every single victim of the troubles, on both sides, is a shame on this island.

 

[The Neviller]

Look at any polls taken in the British mainland, their fellow Brits dont want them. They constantly show they support Irish unity. Their political establishment show they dont want them, Westministers stance is they have no political or economic interest in the north. The north costs them Billions to run, out of the 60 million Brits theres not many on the mainland who give two shits about the north.

Why the feck do you want us then, if we're not worth having?

 

[The Neviller]

And as for Mandela, I'd say he's a terrorist.

 

[Keltoi]

I view the murder of innocents as wrong, whether committed by the IRA or the UVF or whoever else it may be. Whereas it's clear from that sentence of yours that you see the IRA's actions as legitimate, because they had a cause, and I find that appalling. A loyalist could legitimise the murder of a taxi driver in the same light, they were protecting their community. He'd be talking bollocks too. If the "enemy" as the Republic movement viewed them, the state and the armed forces, we're the IRA's only targets I could almost accept the romanticised view you've given it, but when an organisation plants a bomb in a city centre on a busy Saturday, and deliberately gives a garbled warning in the hope that people are evacuated into the path of a car bomb and not away from it, then any legitimate fight you feel they may have is undermined, by deliberate and merciless murder of innocents who weren't fighting any cause.

I've always maintained that the murder of innocents by all sides is wrong. I have no problem with any policeman or army man getting killed, they were legitimate targets and knew the risks when signing up for the job. Im not justifying a bomb in Omagh, I agree with the cause just not all of the actions. Same way as Im a Catholic but dont agree with everything the church does/says.

I get your point that dying for a cause is different, I haven't disagreed with that. I just don't see why you put more weight on someone dying for a belief than someone dying because an organisation decided to blow them to bits, not giving a single care who was there or who died. If anything the lives of the innocents should be remembered more vividly. The deaths of every single victim of the troubles, on both sides, is a shame on this island.

Yes it is a shame but the second part of my point that you're not grasping is that I dont see how a UI is a direct insult to their memory, a lot of the victims were catholics and may well have believed in a UI. Like I said you cant link someone dying in Omagh to pro/anti UI beliefs and say it would be an insult to them.

Why the feck do you want us then, if we're not worth having?

We want some of ye, your land mainly you took off us 400 years ago, the rest of ye can all get the ferry to the motherland

In case you didnt get it that is sarcasm, you're welcome in a UI TN.

 

[The Neviller]

It's no less an insult to their memory than a United Ireland never happening is an insult to those who died fighting for it.

The IRA murdered those people indiscriminately, to pander to them and allow them to achieve their aims through the slaughter of innocents is an offence to them, and the families who lost them. If you can't see that then there is something fundamentally wrong with your thinking, and you're blinded by the notion of Irish Unity and ignoring the consequences of that fight. It's almost as if you view those innocents as collateral damage, and a necessary evil in the gaining of the aims the IRA murdered to try and achieve.

How you can elevate the death of someone who had a cause above the death of someone indiscriminately slaughtered is beyond me.

 

[Keltoi]

It's no less an insult to their memory than a United Ireland never happening is an insult to those who died fighting for it.

The IRA murdered those people indiscriminately, to pander to them and allow them to achieve their aims through the slaughter of innocents is an offence to them, and the families who lost them. If you can't see that then there is something fundamentally wrong with your thinking, and you're blinded by the notion of Irish Unity and ignoring the consequences of that fight. It's almost as if you view those innocents as collateral damage, and a necessary evil in the gaining of the aims the IRA murdered to try and achieve.

How you can elevate the death of someone who had a cause above the death of someone indiscriminately slaughtered is beyond me.

Im not.

The IRA havent achieved their aims, they've disbanded. Sinn Fein and SDLP will achieve the aim of a UI, theres a difference.

 

[The Neviller]

I'm also appalled that in a thread that starts with the report of the murder of a Catholic member of the security forces, with a brother as a poster here, that you could say the security forces were a legitimate target and that it doesn't bother you that they were killed. That's a disgusting attitude.

 

[Ramshock]

You two were made for each other on this forum. Irish Celt, just a warning mate, as someone who has posted a lot about politics on here. Theres a lot of apathy on here when it comes to the northern ireland problem, especially from mods, but when they do take notice they tend to come down hard on things like talking about legitimate targets.

Any Irish mods or admins on here are from the south and don't particularly have much interest in what happens in the northern province. This is something in life I learned a long time ago much to my unhappiness, most in the south have moved on past partition and theres a LOT of apathy and a lack of interest towards the north.

The general public in the south have gotten used to the way things are and the political structure in the republic has been geared away from reunification iit seems. At the end of the day the politicians have a country to run down there (badly) and the people in the south have lives to lead. They weren't born this side of the border they dont have to put up with daily reminders of marches and flags and all the rest of the bullshit of being a second class citizen. So my opinion is don't bother about debating this stuff online with the likes of Neviller or having to deal with apathetic mods who don't give a toss, it will just eat your soul kid theres no point.

 

[The Neviller]

Im not.

The IRA havent achieved their aims, they've disbanded. Sinn Fein and SDLP will achieve the aim of a UI, theres a difference.

There is no difference between Sinn Fein and the IRA. None whatsoever. All they did was bomb their way to the ballot box. If a United Ireland ever happens then it will have been down to the work the IRA did in forcing the government to concede ground.

 

[The Neviller]

You two were made for each other on this forum. Irish Celt, just a warning mate, as someone who has posted a lot about politics on here. Theres a lot of apathy on here when it comes to the northern ireland problem, especially from mods, but when they do take notice they tend to come down hard on things like talking about legitimate targets.

Any Irish mods or admins on here are from the south and don't particularly have much interest in what happens in the northern province. This is something in life I learned a long time ago much to my unhappiness, most in the south have moved on past partition and theres a LOT of apathy and a lack of interest towards the north.

The general public in the south have gotten used to the way things are and the political structure in the republic has been geared away from reunification iit seems. At the end of the day the politicians have a country to run down there (badly) and the people in the south have lives to lead. They weren't born this side of the border they dont have to put up with daily reminders of marches and flags and all the rest of the bullshit of being a second class citizen. So my opinion is don't bother about debating this stuff online with the likes of Neviller or having to deal with apathetic mods who don't give a toss, it will just eat your soul kid theres no point.

Why am I always made out to be some kind of cnut in these things? Does my opinion not count then? I live in this fecking country too, I was born here just like any other of you cnuts.

 

[Ramshock]

Why am I always made out to be some kind of cnut in these things? Does my opinion not count then? I live in this fecking country too, I was born here just like any other of you cnuts.

I wasn't having a pop at you, you were just the one in a debate with Irish Celt thats all

 

[Keltoi]

I'm also appalled that in a thread that starts with the report of the murder of a Catholic member of the security forces, with a brother as a poster here, that you could say the security forces were a legitimate target and that it doesn't bother you that they were killed. That's a disgusting attitude.

Misquoting me again TN, I said was. During the Troubles they were legitimate targets, they were a sectarian force that discriminated against catholics (in some cases openly ie battle of the bogside) and colluded with loyalist paramilitaries.

 

[The Neviller]

I wasn't having a pop at you, you were just the one in a debate with Irish Celt thats all

"the likes of Neviller"

Away and feck yourself, Ramcock white text

 

[The Neviller]

Misquoting me again TN, I said was. During the Troubles they were legitimate targets, they were a sectarian force that discriminated against catholics (in some cases openly ie battle of the bogside) and colluded with loyalist paramilitaries.

Ah right, that's better then. As long as we know they just used to be legitimate targets, but aren't anymore.

 

[Keltoi]

I take your point Ramshock that the majority here dont care anymore, but I do and many others I know also do. TN make totally disagree with me but Im of the opinion that it is my generation that will bring about the reunification of our country.

 

[Keltoi]

Ah right, that's better then. As long as we know they just used to be legitimate targets, but aren't anymore.

If you cant see the difference between the RUC and B Specials of the 1970s and the PSNI of 2012 you're an idiot. One is a legitimate police force endorsed and accepted by the whole community and made up of members of the whole community. The other was a sectarian force that contained 97% protestant members and discriminated against catholics openly. They victimised catholics and their communities while letting Protestants run riot and I've heard this from first hand information not just books or films. My own family were victims of such discrimination, my grandad was from Armagh and moved down south because he was sick of it.

 

[The Neviller]

Did he tell you that catholics weren't allowed to join the police/security forces because the IRA wouldn't let them? Did he tell you that when the RUC was formed there was a third of the required positions reserved for catholics to join, to be representative of the makeup of the population at that time, but that they were discouraged from joining?

Do you even remember the troubles?

 

[Keltoi]

Did he tell you that catholics weren't allowed to join the police/security forces because the IRA wouldn't let them? Did he tell you that when the RUC was formed there was a third of the required positions reserved for catholics to join, to be representative of the makeup of the population at that time, but that they were discouraged from joining?

Do you even remember the troubles?

Come on TN study your history the IRA has little support pre 60s in the north and were essentially non existent after their boarder campaign so you can make excuses for RUC sectarianism all you like.

As for do I remember the troubles, well I was born in 1993 so its pretty unlikely isnt it?

 

[The Neviller]

Come on TN study your history the IRA has little support pre 60s in the north and were essentially non existent after their boarder campaign so you can make excuses for RUC sectarianism all you like.

As for do I remember the troubles, well I was born in 1993 so its pretty unlikely isnt it?

I'm not surprised. As you were.