Read what I was responding to for feck sake.
Northern Ireland Thread
- Thread starter Gaz.
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Read what I was responding to for feck sake.
Read what I was responding to, for feck sake.
And, UVF. Who are they? What sway have they ever had? They aren't in power, they aren't in government. They're inconsequential and nobody cares what they think about anything. And rightly so.
He was a terrorist because he used violent acts which invoked terror in his victims, targets and opponents as a means to achieve his aims. There is a clue in the term.
Are people actually this stupid that they don't know what a terrorist is/means? I assume you do know the campaign of terror engaged in by Nelson Mandela and the organisation he founded? Calling someone a terrorist doesn't mean you disagree with their cause.
No problem, at least you admitted it.
I never understood the 800 year argument. If that holds true do we tell the Americans to go back to Europe (including Ireland) and give it all back?
The Brazilians and Argies to go back to Portugal and Spain? The Austrailians to go back to England?
I don't want to start a whole debate on it, but it was a long time ago.
The Brazilians and Argies to go back to Portugal and Spain? The Austrailians to go back to England?
I don't want to start a whole debate on it, but it was a long time ago.
Ian Paisley, I think.
Britain has a long history of being conquered and massive depopulation, but I guess so it'd be a bit of a toss up between the Angles, the Saxons and the Roman's (who called England, Brittania), certainly wasn't the modern day 'English' people who would mostly have a lot of Norman in there.
Seriously though, I was being slightly facetious with my later statements there, but mankind did not originate in the emerald isle by any denomination, creed or scientific belief that I know of. Therefore, at what point do you draw the line and say there, those people are all Irish, everyone else is foreign. The first people to land there weren't Irish, probably called it Ook, give them the land back you bastard.
There's been a 'cultural exchange' in many eras, the number of people that consider themselves Irish, that could trace lineage back the first settlers is probably very few, if any. If you and your ancestors have lived in a place over the majority of a millennium, then I think your about as Irish as it gets.
Are they really comparable situations though? When you have two groups of people in the small part of an island who share essentially quite different cultures in some ways and were one feels they've been oppressed and treated unequal for hundreds of years?
By definition, your totally correct, Mandela = terrorist, but I think what they are trying to point out is that, as your average Black man in South Africa, during apartheid, the majority of the white establishment at the time were also terrorists, committing acts of terrorism to your people.
As we know, terrorist only seem to respect terrorism as a method of discourse, so they were forced to respond in kind. I think this is somewhat of how Catholics in Ulster must also have felt precluding and during the troubles. Should they have needed too resort of violence? probably not but humanity as a whole tends not to pay attention or shift major attitudes without war.
The Civil Rights movement in America is about the only time without it I can think of without large scale conflict (it was mostly a peaceful movement).
I'm not sure I agree with the methodology but not being a Catholic, black or over 30 it a bit of a massive armchair decision, that I have no frame of reference for.
I still don't think they should be allowed to govern afterwards as they can always use the threat of going back to violence if they don't get their way, which happened a lot leading up to the good Friday agreement. My south African history is insufficient to say that's the case with Mandela though
Not really because in all of those cases he mentioned, there was ethic cleansing on a massive scale.
The Native American population in the US is ridiculously small, about 1% of the total if you include mixed race. The story is pretty similar in South America.
acnumber talking the biggest pile of shite in this thread
Lots of shite in this thread, doing a good job of taking it well off track
Most people in Ireland have DNA that links back to the original settlers who they believe walked over from Spain (since it's very close to Basque DNA) when the land masses were connected.
Well I wouldn't say it's entirely comparable, but not without their similarities either.
There has been so much cross over of cultures over thousands of years, who. An say who really belongs on a piece of land
Good thing you're in to take that role now. Nobody has given a practical reason yet. Makes me suspect there aren't any.
Why are so many private enterprises being run on a 32 country basis?
http://www.allislandproject.org/
Nearly all sporting organisations are run on a 32 county basis.
Many cultural organisations are run on a 32 county basis. Even the orange order is an all Ireland organisation!
Having two sets of services on a small Island make no sense in the long term.
The British Government is the biggest employer in Northern Ireland. We can't afford to lose that. You haven't given a single practical reason. What you're saying is already being done so why change and make our economy even worse?
So basically if the Irish economy gets up and running again you will be happy with a UI?? Yeah?
So basically if it doesn't you're happy with Northern Ireland remaining part of the UK?? Yeah?
Typical
Yes or no?
My answer is that if that's what the majority want then go for it. I doubt I would stay as it would descend into war. I don't see why we can't happily live together as part of the UK.
I would be, that'd be a decent reason, if it makes an economic benefit that is significant to both parties it'd be a worthwhile.
But the economics of the world are very much boom and bust so it'd have to not be a short time benefit. I know from personal experience that it would be to detriment of many local NI businesses that trade heavily to the UK. It might not be a that bad but your conceivably talking about the deathblow for a lot of small businesses already struggling.
If the UK where to adopt the Euro, it would make a lot more sense for a UI in terms of economic reasons but since that's unlikely to happen for the foreseeable future, I'm unsure of how it would help either party.
It would be the only reason. The problem for me would be what it would likely lead to.
Likewise I don't see why we can't live happily together as part of a United Ireland. But I agree that it's up To the majority to decide.
In truth it's not something that I get too emotional about. Could I live in a u ited Ireland? Of course. Could I live as part of the UK? Yes.
Irish politics is an endless battle of counter argument v counter argument. Each of them can be turned on their head and used against the other side - like economic reasons for example.
Simply put I believe that Ireland should be united as it is historically the correct and proper thing to do. If ever a referendum came I am sure a lot of people would vote not on economic reasons but with what they feel deep down is right.
Your last paragraph is exactly what I was saying. It wouldn't be done on practical, intelligent reasons but on an inability to put the past behind us. Would being part of a United Ireland make our lives better? I don't see how it would so why change? The Roman Empire once ruled the globe, history is irellevant to how we should move forward.
Considering how small, population and size wise the British isles are in comparison to the rest of the world, it should all be one country working for the benefit of us all. Hell, the whole of Europe should be all one super country, some sort of Union.
But we are all quite diverse and tend not to get on that well under pressure.
But we are all quite diverse and tend not to get on that well under pressure.
Maybe then we could win a World Cup.
A practical reason? As opposed to having a part of the island belong to another island? Do you realize how much investment the island has lost out on because of partition? Not to mention the northern economy is under developed compared to the rest of the UK and the Republic. Would absorption be easy of course it wont but the infrastructure and economy being in sync would only benefit the island in the long run.
You seem to be forgetting how much running the north costs the UK, reunification whether it be from practical or economical reasons or from a majorities wish its going to eventually happen. But to say theres no practical reason for a country to be reunified not even a century after it was partitioned is just a load of bullshit when all you have to do is look at Germany, albeit on a larger scale, and how they managed it.
tbf the investment stayed away because of all the bombing and killing going on, after that stopped there was quite the boom here.
jesus christ, it wasnt the only reason mate but yes fair point.Any craic in Dublin yet?
You use Northern Ireland being subsidised by the UK as a practical reason to form a United Ireland. How does that work? If we can't afford to run ourselves and the Republic certainly can't afford us then how does it benefit us economically?
A United Ireland will lead to further bloodshed. Is it worth it and why?
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20922038?
This needs to be stopped and soon. Will th people out rioting not be happy until someone is killed??
This needs to be stopped and soon. Will th people out rioting not be happy until someone is killed??
United Ireland?
feck that we should crawl back to Westminster, cap in hand and full of apologies, begging to be saved from the Germans.
feck that we should crawl back to Westminster, cap in hand and full of apologies, begging to be saved from the Germans.
No I use the cost to demonstrate that eventually its going to happen for that and many other reasons. Whether or not there is bloodshed we wont know but you can't let the threat of violence deter democracy (which is what they are trying to do right now as I hear helicopters flying over head). The possibility of dual sovereignty should also never be ruled out and those who wish to have access to a British passport should be able to.
Why do you want it though? What problems that we have currently are solved by it? We have been costing the UK money for years, why would they get rid now when we cause less trouble than before? I think we do know if there will be bloodshed. Look at the trouble we have for not having a flag up every day. If you think there won' t be war if a United Ireland came to fruition then you''re living in a fantasy.
I thought they had sort of knocked this on the head, but it looks like it's all flaring up again.
Someone is going to get seriously injured or killed and it will spark outrage if it does.
The people out in the streets rioting need to realise if they get lifted by the police they will be going to jail for riotous behaviour and if they are caught throwing a petrol bomb or heavy object that hits a police officer they are going to jail for attempted murder. They need to realise the severity of what they are doing, and soon.
I agree that we can't let the threat of violence deter what the majority of people want. But want it or not there will be violence if there is a UI, and I am 100% certain when I say that.
Although we shouldn't let this threat deter democratic rule, it is certainly something that will need to be considered by everyone (people and government) if / when the day comes.
People in Ireland wouldn't be prepared to pay the extra taxes that would be require to create a UI
No because we are completely different from any other people that have been involved in a reunification. Reunification is inevitable, whether it happens in our lifetime is another matter.