The mexican flag mention should have given you the indication that my post was mostly tongue in cheek.
Anyway, as for the tricolour, why should it fly over an official british governed building? I don't see a Polish flag up there.
Northern Ireland Thread
- Thread starter Gaz.
- Start date
The mexican flag mention should have given you the indication that my post was mostly tongue in cheek.
Anyway, as for the tricolour, why should it fly over an official british governed building? I don't see a Polish flag up there.
We should basically make our own flag and our own national anthem. The red hand flag isn't legitimate and arguably more sectarian than the Union Jack.
I'd vote Alliance, I have in the past but it's unlikely they will win in, they'll get their lazy asses to vote in force for DUP next time round. It was a bit of a perfect storm that they got in last time, it seem doubtful to happen again even before this fleg business.
I'd vote Alliance, I have in the past but it's unlikely they will win in, they'll get their lazy asses to vote in force for DUP next time round. It was a bit of a perfect storm that they got in last time, it seem doubtful to happen again even before this fleg business.
Maybe we should just let the Poles take over.
Why though ?
Don't get me wrong, for some reason I'm offend at the very idea of just having the tricolour up there, I have limited objections to them both however.
And when I search for a reason why, I struggle to come up with one. Thinking the worst of myself, I can only assume that it's a form of ingrained spite or stubborness that I don't want 'them' to get their own way.
I don't think that's it though.
Alliance need a rebrand. They should stop being the "Let's all be friends" party and start being the "Everyone sit down and shut up" party.
Very true scrumpy, but then there may be enough stamp your feet parties up there.
Lastwolf you are one funny fecker.
"Seems they do wat they wont"
Thing is you wont be able to get nationalists make a national flag/anthem. That would be recognising everything they dont want to, the legitimacy of the NI state.
Exactly. Making a 'Northern Ireland' state more palatable to nationalists would sound the death knell for Irish unity. Normalisation etc.
Either you are WUMing or are completely ignorant of the political situation in the 6 counties. TN.
You choose which one you think most likely.
We should at least consider putting their flag up.
Foreign flag, innit?
So should we just give up then? If there is no compromise acceptable from a Nationalist point of view then this will never end until there's a United Ireland. So the Nationalist rhetoric of compromise is a complete fallacy.
Wasnt the GFA a compromise? Overwhelmingly accepted by nationalists in the NI IIRC. Compromises like flying both flags will only work to the advantage of unionism. It will have catholics on the ground thinking "this isnt so bad we have equal right, our nationality represented etc". That will outweight any political attempts by nationalism against normalisation. That is how you secure the union for the foreseeable future by making NI more of an acceptable place for catholics to live, not by marching on Dublin to demand the tricolour being taken down (I know its not the majority of unionists or you specifically TN but its the ones that hit the headlines). The whole flag debacle will only serve to enhance the "us vs them" attitudes on both sides and will result in the union being over within half a century, if not less.
I think everyone has basically signed up to play the 'head count' game, while trying to keep the peace in the meantime. Obviously the ultimate goal for the vast majority of nationalists is Irish unity, just the same as unionists want to maintain the status quo, but compromise has to be made for us to live peacefully. When it's taken too far that's when the problems begin for nationalist aspirations. Having a generation of nationalists growing up feeling that their culture is well represented and treated respectfully would make them less likely to see the bigger picture (i.e it's not about flags or street names; it's about national sovereignty).
That's just my (incredibly simplified due to time constraints) view anyway.
What was the compromise in the good Friday agreement then? Stop killing people and we'll let the ones that have already killed out early? (I don't just mean Republicans here).
Anyway, my point was if Nationalism is never going to recognise Northern Ireland as an entity in any guise, and Unionism is never going to accept a United Ireland then we're locked in an endless battle and we'd be as well just switching the lights out. Or leaving the place to the Poles.
Anyway, my point was if Nationalism is never going to recognise Northern Ireland as an entity in any guise, and Unionism is never going to accept a United Ireland then we're locked in an endless battle and we'd be as well just switching the lights out. Or leaving the place to the Poles.
I don't want a United Ireland but I also don't want whatever it is we're supposed to have now. Whether we're being held to ransom over a flag or even worse, bomb threats, murdering or attempting to murder innocent policemen, prison staff etc.
feck knows what the solution is, maybe there isn't one.
feck knows what the solution is, maybe there isn't one.
IMO the GFA was an acceptance of temporary British sovereignty over NI by nationalists while at the same time accepting the self determination clause that would eventually (in nationalist eyes) lead to a UI. Irish Red is right when he says that it is essentially a head counting game but in the meantime both cultures should be respected, same way as when there is a UI I expect unionist culture to be respected.
As far as I can see the compromise was that both sides would put up with things they disagreed with entirely and that sickened them in exchange for peace.
You're right about the second point though. Like I said it's basically a head count game now.
I had have said time a while ago, but given the number of young people I've seen at these things I doubt it.
How do you stop stupidity at a cultural level ?
How do you stop stupidity at a cultural level ?
By leadership at a government level I'd imagine. Unionist leaders have completely shy'd away from any leadership in the whole flag situation.
Right, my biggest problem with that is why ?
Why unite Ireland ? what benefit does it now give either party ?
The logistics seem a nightmare, would it go back to being all 1 county, that's a lot of politicians out of the job.
Besides the romantic nature of the thought of a UI, theres the thousands of lives that have been given for unity ever since Hugh O'Neill's rebellion in the 16th to the United Irishmen in the 18th century, Robert Emmett in the 19th century and the 1916 rising. Whilst you may argue that many died who shouldnt have (one both sides) during the troubles so many people prior to the troubles have given their lives for Irish unity that it would be an insult to their memory and lives IMO not to pursue it.
Again Im not a economist but I'd imagine an all Ireland economy would be much strong than the two individually. NI would benefit massively from our corporate tax rate in terms of foreign investment also combined with them joining the Euro it would make them much more Euro business friendly. I know the logistics in terms of civil services with wages, pensions etc would be a nightmare but it would be a small price to pay imo.
EDIT: On the politicans out of a job point, would anyone care? They're all a bunch of useless overpaid twats anyway. Besides in the event of a UI I think its been accepted that NI would retain some sort of devolved government.
Of course they have, to side with the flagons will gain you no additional voters, to side against them will lose you, your base. It's a poisoned chalice.
What I mean by that is.
I'm the candidate for the theoretical Unionist not retarded party, (UNRP, the paramilitary wing of which is the salvation army) I say to the people of east Belfast, "Wind your neck in, this doesn't mean anything", I upset them and they vote DUP as a result and carry on regardless. I gain possibly a few moderates and maybe a few polish, who are impressed with my vocab in their language (kurva!) catholic northern Irish people largely ignore me because lol unionist.
I come out in support, I look silly to everyone else and just appease the people that were gonna vote for me or the DUP anyway.
It's a no-win ticket
What about those bombed, killed and slaughtered in the pursuit of unity? If it's an insult to the memory of those who fought for unity then is it not an offence to those blown up in car bombings by a group solely opposed to the union if you then just flippantly hand them what they gunned and bombed people down for?
That rhetoric works both ways.
I'd vote for you if you put that in your speech!I agree with you in the sense that its a lose lose situation but its about taking responsibility. Besides if all Unionist parties came out (at least all main ones) where would they go to vote, alliance or nationalist? UUP and DUP will always be the majority parties so losing a seat or two is never going to be the end of the world considering they vote in blocks anyway. But in my mind the protests are a protest against democracy and you should respect the democratic will of the people. Hell unionism used democracy as a tool the discriminate against catholics for decades, its only when its used against them that they have a problem with it, you cant have it both ways.
And, IrishCelt93, I'm a civil servant. Under a United Ireland I probably lose my job that I've spent years working hard in to progress myself. What then? Smalll price to pay, for you maybe.
I realise that but you have to be aware that the pursuit of Irish unity was not just confined to 30 years in northern Ireland.
Civil servants have it handy in Ireland too.
And what? So the lives of those blown to shit in Omagh mean less because it's recent? It appears you're only concerned with not offending the memory of those whose views you share.
Thats part of the problem though TN, issues like that have gone undiscussed on both sides of the border, the logistics of a UI. To be honest I'd feel bad that you would potentially lose your job (along with many catholics/nationalist I might add) but it would be a small price to pay imo. Economies are constantly up and down and new industries are constantly emerging in the place of old ones. Theres no way in the run up to a vote on a UI that those in favour would propose a plan where thousands of civil servants lose their jobs without offering any job plans or new areas where they could be relocated.
No Surreennndduuuuurrrrr!
I kinda missed my own point there, feck the politicians, but they aren't likely to vote themselves out of a job, was what I was trying to highlight.
They didn't divide the Island up until 1921, so what people in the 16th and 18th centuries where fighting for was independence or anatomy from British rule, which they largely got with the Republic all be it, some hundreds of years and lives later.
The Northern part was meant to be for people that still desired to be part of the Union, just with the added hindrance that some people lived here that also thought the opposite and didn't fancy moving, which is fair enough. If we united the Island tomorrow it'd be a similar problem for Unionist.
For an arbitrary change of the tablecloth and the name on the license above the door seems like it'd stir up the pot too much to be worth it right now.
Given trending there will be a catholic majority in the country soon and since the general rule of religion dictates political affiliation, eventually we be united. Unless of course Unionism become magically about something other than Ulster says no, est 1690.
Business is Business, the fact that we are two separate countries now doesn't impede trade, if anything abusing the currency difference often gives an advantage to local business vs the rest of the UK.
Hold on a second though, what are the stats for those who want a United Ireland? For both sides I mean. I think the idea of a United Ireland is dying out even on the Catholic side of things although I base that purely on my own friends and interactions. Are there any stats for it?
If a UI was on the cards tomorrow the Irish Government would flat out reject it. Dropping NI onto the ROI would sink their economy beyond repair. 32 counties of unemployment.
When did I say they mean less? I dont think that a UI would be automatically offending those who died (in the case of anyone who was non police force or army, died wrongly). Many of those who died as a result of violence on both sides as you well know were ordinary civilians who were just going about their day be it in Omagh or attending a funeral in Milltown when they lost their lives and were not nessarily those opposing a UI, heck a lot of the victims of the Real IRA bomb in omagh where Catholic.. My point was that Irish nationalism while most closely associated with northern Ireland and the Troubles in not exclusive to that region or time period.
Now come on, TN. We both know that isn't true.
I didn't say I work hard now, but I did at one point.
I think it might have been a Tuesday.