Please do, because I can't remember a single example of that having watched India since pretty much his ODI debut.
NM vs EAP @Karachi
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Please do, because I can't remember a single example of that having watched India since pretty much his ODI debut.
Sure.http://www.espncricinfo.com/icc_cricket_worldcup2011/engine/match/433586.html
From 267-1 in 39.3 overs to 296 all out. Precisely the sorta of situation I'm talking about. Anyone who has seen India play can easily recall plenty of those.
How was that his fault?
He was left batting with Harbhajan in the 45th over after Tendulkar, Gambhir, Yuvraj, Pathan and Kohli all got out within 3 overs.
Of course he never risked his wicket, not outs are important for Dhoni's stats.How was that his fault?
He was left batting with Harbhajan in the 45th over after Tendulkar, Gambhir, Yuvraj, Pathan and Kohli all got out within 3 overs.
I;m sure the 'greatest finisher ever' wouldn't be sitting there scoring 12 off 21 balls when the team needs someone to score big. Look at that fecking batting order, and he does that every single time the team is in a good position batting first. I've had times where I was close to smashing the screen looking at this guy just feck up the batting order entirely unnecessarily at a time where you need to push on. Dhoni batting first is great in situations where wickets have fallen and he comes in early and gets time to settle and play a recovering innings, though again not "THAT" great doing that, but him coming in at the death with a big score on the board is hardly his strength. He's a good finisher, don't get your panties in a bunch, but he's not complete in any sense of the word, not for me at least, sorry.
To be fair, it's a moot point since I'm chasing Aldo. We have to consider the game.
Also this.
It's really a sad day for Cricket that Dhoni's finishing is considered better than Viv's batting 
And especially when my bowling is better!
And especially when my bowling is better!
Dhoni - Average of 51.25 with S/R of 89.27
Viv - Average of 47 with S/R of 90.00.....in an era that is not so freaking batting friendly and against better bowlers than here! And Viv would be at the crease more time than Dhoni!
Current day greats are so overrated in an all time context, it's not funny at all!
Viv - Average of 47 with S/R of 90.00.....in an era that is not so freaking batting friendly and against better bowlers than here! And Viv would be at the crease more time than Dhoni!
Current day greats are so overrated in an all time context, it's not funny at all!
Dhoni - Average of 51.25 with S/R of 89.27
Viv - Average of 47 with S/R of 90.00.....in an era that is not so freaking batting friendly and against better bowlers than here! And Viv would be at the crease more time than Dhoni!
Current day greats are so overrated in an all time context, it's not funny at all!
I don't think anybody is disputing Viv is the first/second best bat of all time. It's the folks around him.
I also don't think your bowling is better. Mine definitely holds its own.
Don't worry, it isn't.It's really a sad day for Cricket that Dhoni's finishing is considered better than Viv's batting
That's just one of those things that people say like 'if Sachin scores 100 India loses'. Neither of which are true. Remember the game in which Sachin scored 200? He got tired by the end and Dhoni ended the blitzkreig with 70 from 40 or something. India were close to 300 in the 41st over when Pathan got out and we got to 401. Or him scoring 50(25) or something in Cardiff in 2011? I remember the game in that series where we were like 60/5 and he took us to 250 with Jadeja on the other end. And we won by 20 odd runs. He really is a very intelligent cricketer playing depending upon the situation and his SR batting first is almost the same anyway.
Anyway it doesn't matter here as we are chasing either ways
I'll just post this again so that it doesn't get lost in the clutter.
Stats for more than 50 overs in the country (avoids skewing):
Bowler #3
Simon O'Donnell in India: 89.2 overs at average of 30.00 (not enough stats in Pak)
Vs
Aaqib Javed in Pakistan: 225 overs at average of 24.23
Bowler #4
Flintoff in India: 131 overs at average of 35.47
Vs
Swann in India: 104 overs at average of 32.56
Shakib does not have 50 overs in either country, so just Pak stats to keep this relevant
Bowler #5
Shakib al Hasan: 44 overs for at average of 43.40
Vs
Chris Harris: 45.2 overs at average of 26.44
Stats for more than 50 overs in the country (avoids skewing):
Bowler #3
Simon O'Donnell in India: 89.2 overs at average of 30.00 (not enough stats in Pak)
Vs
Aaqib Javed in Pakistan: 225 overs at average of 24.23
Bowler #4
Flintoff in India: 131 overs at average of 35.47
Vs
Swann in India: 104 overs at average of 32.56
Shakib does not have 50 overs in either country, so just Pak stats to keep this relevant
Bowler #5
Shakib al Hasan: 44 overs for at average of 43.40
Vs
Chris Harris: 45.2 overs at average of 26.44
Shoaib or Shakib are none the better than Flower or Jadeja. Dean Jones is as good as Kohli if not better.
Comes down to Dhoni vs Viv to make the difference and I know who is better.
I have an advantage in bowling. See above post with details.
And I'm off to sleep. Good game NM and Prath92!
Comes down to Dhoni vs Viv to make the difference and I know who is better.
I have an advantage in bowling. See above post with details.
And I'm off to sleep. Good game NM and Prath92!
ok this is bullshit. Flintoff has 35 overs in Pak, more than enough to be considered for his excellent record there. Add in the fact that you are comparing Indian and Pak pitches (which are NOT the same) and it becomes worse. Plus Chris Harris has less than 50 overs, but his stats are ok. Shakib's stats aren't great, but he's bowled less than 50 overs, so let's include them.
Expected better. Disappointed.
Firstly, Flintoff is my 3rd bowler and better than yours.
Secondly O'Donnell is very good in the sub-continent, and was the most economical bowler in the world cup final.
Let's deal with facts, not make believe.
Fact: Kirsten averaged 58 in 15 matches in Pak.
Dhoni apparently averages 100+.
Flintoff's real stats in Pak:
Flintoff in India: 35overs at average of 25ish. Much better, and actually REALISTIC
You can keep saying Dhoni vs Viv but its bigger than that. Better openers, a more explosive finishing group and the chasing goat. I like arguing with you EAP but I don't like false comparisms
@Edgar Allan Pillow sorry to sound harsh, but I didn't like those comparisms. I'm off to sleep. good arguing with you as always
Dean Jones is good but he is in no way better than Kohli in most aspects of the game. Viv is too good of course but overall we have better team.
Chanderpaul & Kirsten > Marsh and Dravid
Kohli > Jones
Lamb<< Viv
Malik > flower (playing in pak and at best they are equal)
Dhoni >> Jadeja
Flintoff > Hadlee/Harris
Big hitters in O'Donnell and Shakib if required.
Bowling wise (all explained in posts in previous pages)
Roberts just as effective as Hadlee (if not more)
Bracken > Marshall
O'Donnell > Aaqib
Flintoff > Harris
Swann Shakib are pretty much similar anyway.
Chanderpaul & Kirsten > Marsh and Dravid
Kohli > Jones
Lamb<< Viv
Malik > flower (playing in pak and at best they are equal)
Dhoni >> Jadeja
Flintoff > Hadlee/Harris
Big hitters in O'Donnell and Shakib if required.
Bowling wise (all explained in posts in previous pages)
Roberts just as effective as Hadlee (if not more)
Bracken > Marshall
O'Donnell > Aaqib
Flintoff > Harris
Swann Shakib are pretty much similar anyway.
Chanderpaul & Kirsten = Marsh and Dravid
Boy would I not want to watch either opening pair. What a snooze fest. Kirsten was class, but with a stroke player, which Shiv could be when in the mood. What I'm counting on is Dravid really taking his job seriously, and Geoff Marsh's experience at the slot.
Kohli > Jones - Would have to go with this. Jones was great for his era, but he's not close to Kohli
Lamb<< Viv - No contest. Viv was the kind of player who could win this game single handedly.
Malik = flower - Decent players, nowt special.
Dhoni >> Jadeja - Jadeja is an aberration in this team.
Hadlee, Marshall and Javed is a fearsome trio, Flintoff and O'Donell are pretty average in comparison, and provide less than adequate support to the great Andy Roberts. The support staff of Swann and Harris is better than what NM'steam has to offer.
EAP to win a closely fought encounter.
Boy would I not want to watch either opening pair. What a snooze fest. Kirsten was class, but with a stroke player, which Shiv could be when in the mood. What I'm counting on is Dravid really taking his job seriously, and Geoff Marsh's experience at the slot.
Kohli > Jones - Would have to go with this. Jones was great for his era, but he's not close to Kohli
Lamb<< Viv - No contest. Viv was the kind of player who could win this game single handedly.
Malik = flower - Decent players, nowt special.
Dhoni >> Jadeja - Jadeja is an aberration in this team.
Hadlee, Marshall and Javed is a fearsome trio, Flintoff and O'Donell are pretty average in comparison, and provide less than adequate support to the great Andy Roberts. The support staff of Swann and Harris is better than what NM'steam has to offer.
EAP to win a closely fought encounter.
No. Just, no.
In LOI, Bracken has performed better than Marshall in WI, in Aus, even in India. Even though bowling was tougher in mid 2000s than in 80s. Marshall is an amazing test bowler where Bracken wasnt successful but Bracken was a force that most batsmen struggled with in LOI.
I also dont agree with the O'Donnell and Flintoff as average. Both are more than competent in stifling runs and chipping in wickets, supporting both Roberts and Bracken amply. Bracken is a very good strike bowler generating good movement. O'Donnell has a very good economy and was one of the integral parts of the Aus team in the late 80s early 90s with his accurate bowling and lower order pinch hitting (even winning ICC cricketer of the year in 1991). Harris and Swann are not better than Flintoff and Shakib in anyway if you go by their records.
Neither Chanderpaul nor Kirsten are inferior in anyway. In fact both are quicker openers than Marsh who has a SR of 56 in LOI (even Gavaskar has a SR of 62 for gods sake).
True. I'm inclined toward Shiv and Kirsten in the opening slot. Both teams have made a balls of the situation though.
Marshall and Bracken aren't separated by stats, rather by a gulf of ability.
Marshall and Bracken aren't separated by stats, rather by a gulf of ability.
Very little voting this game. 7-4 to NM right now with personal preference being the major indicator of how this game is swinging.
But bowling (or even batting) in ODI is judged by your effectiveness and efficiency rather than ability though? For instance, in terms of ability Gavaskar vs Sehwag is a no contest but would anyone pick Gavaskar over Sehwag in the shorter format? The fact is that Bracken was more effective in the shorter form of the game pretty much everywhere. That too bowling at a time where rate of scoring was higher, advent of T20 having changed batting style completely, outfields were quicker and boundaries were shorter. Not to say that Marshall isnt terrific himself but the difference here isnt all that much imo.
Uhm, can't the same be said of Roberts too ? He played in an era even before Marshall's time and where cricketers used to eat up a lot of balls. So his econ is definitely not accurate whatsoever. Also, he did't have a stellar outing in India neither. His Ave drops from 20 to 29. Ofcourse that would be slightly better in conditions like Pakistan. But some of his records are a little flattering (I mean especially his economy).
He did well in seaming conditions like Australia and England, but not so well in dead or bouncy pitches like Ind and WI respectively. Pakistan conditions probably come somewhere in the middle imo. So an Ave of 27 and an econ of 3.9 - 4ish is more accurate I feel.
Edit: The four games where Roberts and Marshall played against India, saw Marshall the better bowler, picking up more wickets and going for less runs. Even the one game Roberts outdid Marshall, it cost him 54 runs in 10 overs and Marshall conceded only 18 from 6.
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Bracken payed in the early and mid 2000s, probably peaking around 2006-07 (could be wrong on the exact years). It was before any silly rule changes and the advent of T20s.
Will just have to agree to disagree. Marshall was the most cunning and effective bowlers you could face in any format.
Hadlee also played in the same era though. And Hadlee hasn't bowled in the subcontinent at all. Marshall himself played his last ODI in 1990 or so. Which is why I didn't consider both Hadlee and Roberts as it's clear that had they played they would have wreaked havoc in these pitches. So to say they wouldn't be able to bowl here would be a bit over the top
. Hadlee and Roberts both were top bowlers and too good not to make any impact. His peak was 2006-2009 with him being no.1 ODI bowler in 2008 or so. He also was only behind McGrath in wickets in 2007 WC. T20 had slowly crept in by 2006 and even otherwise batsmen like Jayasuriya Sehwag and all were already adept at smashing in the early overs.
As I said, Marshall is a very good bowler but bracken is in no way inferior. Especially in this format.
I said that Roberts Econ would probably not be all that accurate. He conceded 54 runs against an Indian side with Gavaskar, Amarnath ffs. Two of the slowest cricketers in that Indian side. And his ave is 29 in India. So makes me think, he won't be as effective as you think. He's done immensely well in Australia and England (Two better batting nations at that stage with conditions that aid his bowling) but a Little weaker in more flatish pitches.Hadlee also played in the same era though. And Hadlee hasn't bowled in the subcontinent at all. Marshall himself played his last ODI in 1990 or so. Which is why I didn't consider both Hadlee and Roberts as it's clear that had they played they would have wreaked havoc in these pitches. So to say they wouldn't be able to bowl here would be a bit over the top
Same goes for Hadlee. Immense in naturally swing favouring conditions (i.e NZ, Eng and to an extent Aus).
Roberts had too short a career in ODI anyway. So it's impossible to say if he would have had the same impact in ODIs as he had in Tests as every one seems to think. So you suggesting that he would wreak Havoc in these pitches is a bit over the top
.That Indian series was played in 1983 if I'm not wrong when Marshall was 24 and Roberts must have been 32 or 33 (in the last year of his career). That probably played a part as its not easy being a fast bowler bowling full speed in pitches like that at the fag end of your career.
Yeah, I noticed that. Was going to say it anyway.
. I'm the objective poster here, so whenever I find some comment which I suspect, I do my due diligence on it. And your point sort of holds true, because Marshall struggled a bit after that in India. Roberts is definitely the better bowler (no doubts there at all), but just feel his economy is a little flattering. Same probably goes for Hadlee. No way a player can have that sort of economy in modern conditions, unless you are someone like McGrath. But of the two, I think Hadlee is likely to go for more runs.and how the hell did Roberts last till R4. . You guys were super lucky there. No way should he have been allowed to escape beyonf R2, R3 at worst.
. You guys were super lucky there. No way should he have been allowed to escape beyonf R2, R3 at worst.Yeah, I noticed that. Was going to say it anyway.
We didnt consider his economy anyway. In the excel snapshot that @NM posted, he has ignored the economy specifically stating the game was slower then.
And ya, we managed to get him. @Skizzo was all ready to pounce on him.
I don't like Dravid opening. I like Kirsten a lot, I always thought he was very reliable. NM's openers have the advantage for me.
The bowling is about even for me. I rate O'Donnell, and I don't think Marshall is that much better in the shorter format. I don't like Hasan, but Bracken and Flintoff are fine. Maybe slight edge to EAP.
Yeah, it probably doesn't matter with you guys bowling first and against that team.
I saw the list now, and there were very some unusual bowling picks before he was snapped. So very lucky for you lads.
Not relevant here as he is a tailender and wont be reqd to bat anyway but O'Donnell is famous for his pinch hitting.
Just realised it's shoaib malik and not salim.
Would it have mattered ? Apart from personal preference ofcourse.
Hadlee also played in the same era though. And Hadlee hasn't bowled in the subcontinent at all. Marshall himself played his last ODI in 1990 or so. Which is why I didn't consider both Hadlee and Roberts as it's clear that had they played they would have wreaked havoc in these pitches. So to say they wouldn't be able to bowl here would be a bit over the top
His peak was 2006-2009 with him being no.1 ODI bowler in 2008 or so. He also was only behind McGrath in wickets in 2007 WC. T20 had slowly crept in by 2006 and even otherwise batsmen like Jayasuriya Sehwag and all were already adept at smashing in the early overs.
As I said, Marshall is a very good bowler but bracken is in no way inferior. Especially in this format.
He had played test in India
http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/series/62135.html
Though we had ODI series vs NZ, not sure why he didn't play it.
Yes, shoaib can bowl a bit especially in the subcontinent. Always good to have an option incase a main bowler goes for a few.