NM vs EAP @Karachi

Who will win the ODI?

  • Total voters
    18
  • Poll closed .

Skills

Snitch
Joined
Jan 17, 2012
Messages
43,185
Welcome to Day 4 of the ODI snake draft round of 16. Some basic rules to consider while voting:

1) Judge players only on the basis of their ODI records.
2) Base your vote on which team you think is more likely to win an ODI between the two.
3) The ground for the match serves only as a representative of the overall playing conditions of its country.
4) The poll will remain open for 24 hours after creation.

NM has won the toss and has chosen to chase at Karachi
The XIs:

@NM : 1. Kirsten 2. Chanderpaul 3. Kohli 4. Lamb 5. Malik 6. Dhoni 7. Flintoff 8. Shakib 9. Nathan Bracken 10. O'Donnell 11. Andy Roberts

@Edgar Allan Pillow : 1. Geoff Marsh 2. Rahul Dravid 3. Dean Jones 4.Viv Richards 5. Grant Flower, 6. Ajay Jadeja 7.Richard Hadlee 8.Chris Harris 9. Graeme Swann 10. Malcolm Marshall 11.Aaqib Javed
 
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Team NM

ofsJL


Why we win:
1. We are chasing. We have Dhoni and Kohli
2. My openers are comfortably better IMO. Marsh is too slow for ODI cricket
3. I bat till 8, with the right blend of dependability at the top and explosiveness at the bottom. He has a great 3/4/5 but the rest of my batting line up is comfortably better.
4. My bowling matches or exceeds his. Marshall and Hadlee weren't the beasts that they were in test cricket. His 3rd seamer is comfortably worse than mine, and Swann has struggled in India before - I don't see why he wouldn't in Pakistan.
5. Shoaib Malik is a beast in Pakistan.
6. He can't accelerate. His batsmen's strike rates (in order): 1. 55.93 2. 67.58 (slow openers) 3. 72.56 4. 90.2 (Viv) 5. 71.24 (only Viv in the middle order) 6. 69.8 7. 66.51 (if he plays Harris) who is doing the accelerating if Viv goes?
7. The computer simulations run in the draft thread said I'd win :D

Plan is simple:
Knock over the openers quickly, and try and put pressure on his middle 3/4/5. If we knock them over quickly, great. If not, he has nobody who can accelerate at the death imo. His batsmen's strike rates (other than Viv) means he isn't getting 250+... which means Kohli and Dhoni will chase it with ease.

My team, which chasing will get a solid start from Kirsten and Chanders. Kohli will Kohli, Lamb will provide balance while Malik plays the situation. Flintoff and Dhoni provide the big finish, while Shakib provides stability if something goes wrong (it won't).

Let me know if it isn't readable and I'll send a better pic
 
Team EAP

Team:
Geoff Marsh, Rahul Dravid, Dean Jones, Viv Richards, Grant Flower, Ajay Jadeja, Richard Hadlee, Chris Harris, Graeme Swann, Malcolm Marshall, Aaqib Javed

Match Comments:

+ National Stadium, Karachi is the place where Viv Richards scored a career high 181 which still is the stadium record!
+ The pitch is expected to be a typical sub-continent pitch with gives a little bit better support for pace. I have Hadlee and Javed who are specialist swing bowlers able to move the ball both ways and Swann's whose flight and drift will find good support here. Marshall has a highly effective leg-cutter in his arsenal which he uses for dusty pitches.

Batting:

01. Geoff Marsh - 39.97
02. Rahul Dravid - 39.30
03. Dean Jones - 43.59
04. Viv Richards - 48.88
05. Grant Flower - 37.65
06. Ajay Jadeja - 37.83
07. Richard Hadlee - 25.25
08. Chris Harris - 39.92

* Note: I've used batting average in the position they are playing in this match for better comparison.

Geoff Marsh and Rahul Dravid opening the innings. Two technically competent batsman who'll provide a solid opening partnership which reduces probability of an early wicket loss. They may be unspectacular compared to modern big hitting openers, but they specialize in building a solid base and keep the run-rate ticking for the legends coming in after them.

Dean Jones is an electric No.3 batsman and one of the greatest Australian ODI batsman of all time. His average and strike rate set the benchmark of that era. He was noted for his electric running between the wickets and aggressive batting especially against fast bowlers.

Viv Richards follows at No.4 and does not need a big introduction!
+ Chosen by Wisden as the greatest One Day International (ODI) batsman of all time
+ Voted one of the five Cricketers of the Century
+ Judged by Wisden Cricketers' Almanack to have played the best ODI innings of all time.

Grant Flower and Ajay Jadeja complete the top order. Grant Flower at his peak in 2010 scored 527 runs at 65.87! Flower has the temperament to play a long innings, but can be counted to accelerate scoring with big hits too. Jadeja is a street smart batsman noted for energetic running between wickets, audacious big-hitting. Between these two they have the capability to light up the stadium!

Richard Hadlee and Chris Harris tidy up the batting lineup. Hadlee was one of the greatest all rounders the game has ever seen. He was an aggressive lower order batsman who is capable of putting the middle over bowlers to the sword. Harris is an exceptional lower order batman who averages just below 40 playing at #8. He has rescued NZ numerous times at the death and has 13 centuries to his name.

Bowling:

01. Richard Hadlee - Avg 21.56, Econ 3.30
02. Malcolm Marshall - Avg 26.96, Econ 3.53

Richard Hadlee and Malcolm Marshall open the bowling attack.

With ball in hand, there was little Richard Hadlee couldn't do. He moved it both ways, in the air and off the pitch, and managed to extract life from even the most unresponsive conditions. His consistency was unparalleled, which ensured he finished with career numbers that rank among the best of all time. Hadlee was #4 in among bowlers who took at least 100 ODI wickets till 1990 and in 1983 World Cup conceded only 2.88 runs per over in 13 matches!

Marshall despite having better Test stats was a dangerous ODI bowler. He generated fearsome pace from his bowling action and had a dangerous bouncer in this box of tricks. He developed a devastating leg cutter which he used on dusty pitches. Not just pure pace, he was a very intelligent bowler who know when and how to bowl taking into consideration the batsman, pitches, match circumstances etc. Windies during his time had other devastating pace bowlers but Marshall is generally regarded as the finest of them all!

03. Graeme Swann - Avg 27.76, Econ 4.54
04. Aaqib Javed - Avg 31.53, Econ 4.28

Swann was one of the best off spinners of modern era with the distinctive ability to dip and turn the ball markedly. During the 2011 World Cup, Swann was England's highest wicket taker with 12 wickets from 7 matches. A further 8 wickets in the ODI series against Sri Lanka saw him rise to the number 1 spot in the ICC's ODI bowler rankings. He has always troubled the left handers from round the wicket with the amount of drift that he gets in the air.

Aaqib Javed was a key member of the 1992 Pakistan team that won the world cup. He can swing the ball both ways and is highly potent while playing in the sub-continent. He tends to get a bit underrated in the shadows of Wasim and Waqar, but shone when he got to open the bowling when Waqar was injured.

Chris Harris, Grant Flower and Viv Richards are all competent part time bowlers who have the ability to share the rest of the bowling workload.
 
@Rado_N could you make this poll please:

Title: Who will win the ODI?

Option 1: NM
Option 2: Edgar Allan Pillow

Vote options: can only pick 1 choice, votes can be changed, votes are public.

Thanks.
 
M S has an average of 136.5 or so in 11 games he played in Pakistan. And Simon O'Donnell was Australia's most economical bowler in the reliance World Cup in 1987 in the subcontinent.
 
Akshay said:
Two very good teams, a real shame one is going to be knocked out. Viv Richards, Marshall-Hadlee combo, Andy Roberts, Kohli & Dhoni chasing; all things that could decide this match.
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We also have Nathan bracken who averages close to 20 in India from 15 or so games, where the pitches have less pace and bounce than the pak pitches.

As for chasing, Allan Lamb is another chase king. In 1987 him and defreitas recovered from 162-7 to win the game scoring 246-8 at Gujranwala with him scoring 68 ball 67.

 
I'll post my points when EAP gets here as I don't want to double team him. I have an issue with some of the stuff he said in the lineup. :)
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Go on. Post up!
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1. Pak pitches usually do have something for pace man. They weren't dustbowls in the 90s, and we have barely played any cricket there since mid 2000s.
2. Swann averages 32 in India, what makes you think he will be good in Pak, if you claim they are dustbowls?
3. You are playing Dravid as an opener? That's sacrilege!
 
prath92 said:
M S has an average of 136.5 or so in 11 games he played in Pakistan. And Simon O'Donnell was Australia's most economical bowler in the reliance World Cup in 1987 in the subcontinent.
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Then why does the excel have 59 for Dhoni ?
 
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Ijazz17 said:
Then does the excel have 59 for Dhoni ?
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I'm not sure about the 136 number. Cricinfo says 59 from 8 so that's what I have. Dunno where Prath got that number from.

I'd like to point out that aside from Viv, he has NOBODY on his team with a good strike rate. None. He isn't going to get a big score here. On the other hand, I'm chasing while batting til 9 and having multiple big hitters at the death
 
Finally two good teams...shame one has to be knocked out. Will give this some thought. Might come down to personal favourites.
 
NM said:
I'm not sure about the 136 number. Cricinfo says 59 from 8 so that's what I have. Dunno where Prath got that number from.

I'd like to point out that aside from Viv, he has NOBODY on his team with a good strike rate. None. He isn't going to get a big score here. On the other hand, I'm chasing while batting til 9 and having multiple big hitters at the death
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Prath is right. It's 136 in 9 innings. You saw the record against Pak.

Also who is this Nathan ? And why does he come at No 10 in your excel but at 9 in Skills's line-up.
 
NM said:
I'm not sure about the 136 number. Cricinfo says 59 from 8 so that's what I have. Dunno where Prath got that number from.

I'd like to point out that aside from Viv, he has NOBODY on his team with a good strike rate. None. He isn't going to get a big score here. On the other hand, I'm chasing while batting til 9 and having multiple big hitters at the death
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You can't say Dean Jones won't score quickly. Yes his SR is only in the 70s but that was a high benchmark in the eighties. He's not a slogger but he can be aggressive and definitely will keep the scoreboard ticking over.
 
Akshay said:
You can't say Dean Jones won't score quickly. Yes his SR is only in the 70s but that was a high benchmark in the eighties. He's not a slogger but he can be aggressive and definitely will keep the scoreboard ticking over.
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Yep. Dravid and Jadeja will too. Dravid improved on that part of his game later on and Jadeja was very good at running between the wickets.
 
Roberts/Bracken are a good opening combo, but Hadlee/Malcolm are just better. Malcolm's aggressive bouncers will be a perfect complement to Hadlee niggling consistency. They'd bring out the better in each other. Totally different styles but perfect partnership.

Both Marsh and Dravid are solid and the probability of early wickets is very less with these two. Yes, I agree they are a tad slow compared to your openers...but they will keep the run rate to a respectable 4 per over approx. Their primary job is to see through your opening bowling attack and then unleash Dean and Viv to your secondary bowlers.

Viv's average was near 49 in an era without batsman assisted run friendly ODIs now. He was the best player in the best ODI era of all time. His batting style translates perfectly to modern times and he'd outclass Dhoni and Kohli comfortably had he been a current player. Dean Jones was revolutionary during his time. Again a player whose style seamlessly transitions into modern times.

Simon/Freddie as your secondary bowlers who'd probably end up bowling to Viv and Dean. I can't see a better run fest than that! I'd gladly take Aquib Javed & Swann over them anyways.
 
Ijazz17 said:
Prath is right. It's 136 in 9 innings. You saw the record against Pak.

Also who is this Nathan ? And why does he come at No 10 in your excel but at 9 in Skills's line-up.
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Akshay said:
By Nathan he means Nathan Bracken. No idea why he didn't just write Bracken as that would have been a lot clearer.
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Yes. It's is to my advantage that I'm batting first. From Dravid to Dean to Viv to Jadeja all excelled batting first. Harris averages 39.92 at #8 will end the innings in style. Not all teams have Dhoni and Bevan to end the innings, but with the talent I have in my batting lineup, I can match his hard hitters in overall score and do better.

I believe he's put up a list of big hitters and expect them to blast their way through their innings. Lamb was not a good player of spin and unless you go down to Dhoni I don't see any player capable of holding an innings together.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Roberts/Bracken are a good opening combo, but Hadlee/Malcolm are just better. Malcolm's aggressive bouncers will be a perfect complement to Hadlee niggling consistency. They'd bring out the better in each other. Totally different styles but perfect partnership.

Both Marsh and Dravid are solid and the probability of early wickets is very less with these two. Yes, I agree they are a tad slow compared to your openers...but they will keep the run rate to a respectable 4 per over approx. Their primary job is to see through your opening bowling attack and then unleash Dean and Viv to your secondary bowlers.

Viv's average was near 49 in an era without batsman assisted run friendly ODIs now. He was the best player in the best ODI era of all time. His batting style translates perfectly to modern times and he'd outclass Dhoni and Kohli comfortably had he been a current player. Dean Jones was revolutionary during his time. Again a player whose style seamlessly transitions into modern times.

Simon/Freddie as your secondary bowlers who'd probably end up bowling to Viv and Dean. I can't see a better run fest than that! I'd gladly take Aquib Javed & Swann over them anyways.
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As a unit, mine are as good as yours IMO. Marshall/Hadlee at the top are great, but my 3/4/5 are (as a unit) better than yours IMO. How will Marsh keep anything at 4 per over with a strike rate of 55 mate?

I'm not going to argue against VIV. He is the ODI GOAT (or number 2 behind God) but the rest of your lineup. I said as much in my lineup. Jones is your 4, where is the acceleration beneath that?

Everybody already knows my thoughts on Jadeja from the match thread. (ie. He's a cnut).

Regarding Simon/Freddie being a run fest, Freddie is better than any of your 3/4/5, and Simon was the best bowler in the 1987 WC in the subcontinent. You need to account for conditions mate



Akshay said:
You can't say Dean Jones won't score quickly. Yes his SR is only in the 70s but that was a high benchmark in the eighties. He's not a slogger but he can be aggressive and definitely will keep the scoreboard ticking over.
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He won't score as quickly as my guys at the bottom. I think that is a fair statement.

Ijazz17 said:
Prath is right. It's 136 in 9 innings. You saw the record against Pak.

Also who is this Nathan ? And why does he come at No 10 in your excel but at 9 in Skills's line-up.
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Bracken. My bad guys, I was being yelled at while doing the write up
 
Hmm, agree with EAP above. I have an issue with Dravid opening though, and the opening combo in general.
 
Donaldo said:
Oh yeah NMs the guy who blanket refuses to rate match fixers...
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Fixers? I didn't rate Ajmal because he's a chucker. I don't like fixers, but struggle to hate them because I used to like Azhar... :(
 
NM said:
Fixers? I didn't rate Ajmal because he's a chucker. I don't like fixers, but struggle to hate them because I used to like Azhar... :(
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I remember you having massive issues with Cronje and Aamir in previous drafts.


Almost every team in this draft has a fixer each...
 
NM said:
As a unit, mine are as good as yours IMO. Marshall/Hadlee at the top are great, but my 3/4/5 are (as a unit) better than yours IMO. How will Marsh keep anything at 4 per over with a strike rate of 55 mate?

I'm not going to argue against VIV. He is the ODI GOAT (or number 2 behind God) but the rest of your lineup. I said as much in my lineup. Jones is your 4, where is the acceleration beneath that?

Everybody already knows my thoughts on Jadeja from the match thread. (ie. He's a cnut).
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Well, we all have opinions.

During that era, after Sachin the only person worth looking forward to was Jadeja. He had abysmal partners in Mongia and Robin Singh...but one can never question his ability to speed up the run rate.

I'd definitely take Jadeja over Shakib. I refuse to rate Shakib highly. His stats are buffed at home and against lesser nations. And the #1 all rounder is just a fancy stat as of now. Who are his notable competitors now, Hafeez? Not even comparable to the greats of Hadlee, Imran, Botham etc. I'll stake my life savings that Viv will murder him on the pitch.
 
What I remember of Jadeja is a player very good at keeping the dot balls down and the fast singles/doubles. He's not explosive though, and he's not someone who can anchor a chase reliably either. I don't rate his batting better than say Flintoff. For me, NM essentially has an extra batsman.

Chanderpaul was fairly effective anywhere from top to middle order in ODIs. Don't have any particular issue with him opening. He's a good player at blunting a pace attack, too.
 
Again explosive is relative. You'll rarely find Dhoni type players going back to older eras. And even in current era, not all teams sport a equivalent caliber player. It'd be useless to pick older era players if we are going to judge by modern #6 standards. There must be a middle ground.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
We're not chasing. I said this before too. I rate Jadeja better when batting first...and NM gave us the bat.
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Feck I got confused who Jadeja was playing for! My bad.

Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Harris? He was superb for NZ lower order. A 39.98 average at #8 and has 13 centuries to his name!
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Well, that's a very selective stat because he mostly batted at 7 where he has an average of 31. There's no real huge difference between batting at #7 and #8 that suggests it's anything but a chance difference.
 
NM said:
Averages 43 there. What's the issue?
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His average is 40 actually. And he's better at solidifying the innings. Opening him, will see him hog a lot of balls and the RR for the first 10 overs will be around 4-4.5 an over (And I am being kind here). That will put a lot pressure on who follows next. Because he has the proclivity for a long Innings, I expect him to last longer than Kirsten. So even those first 15-20 overs might be a little too slow.
 
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So it's ok if I post right? Akash and le chuck were posting in the other game too anyway?
 
Chris Harris averages 25 with the bat in pak from 8 games and 23 in India in 21 games. Safe to say batting in subcontinent isn't his best forte.
 
Ijazz17 said:
His average is 40 actually. And he's better at solidifying the innings. Opening him, will see him hog a lot of balls and the RR for the first 10 overs will be around 4-4.5 an over (And I am being kind here). That will put a lot pressure on who follows next. Because he has the proclivity for a long Innings, I expect him to last longer than Kirsten. So even those first 15-20 overs might be a little too slow.
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Both Kirsten and Chanderpaul are very good openers who not only score at a good rate, are also sensible batsmen. They take quick singles and may not be gung Ho like gilchrist Sehwag and all but they were very dependable openers. They have excellent records of high scores all scored at good rates.
 
Lamb has a weakness against spinners. He'd end up facing Swann, one of the best spinners in modern era. Pakistan's pitches may assist pace a bit, but they still are spin friendly pitches in general.

I don't rate Shoaib Malik's bowling or Shakib Hassan's all round performance all that highly. Viv Richards probably has better bowling figures than Malik. His overall bowling would be sorely tested with these weakness. Aaqib Javed and Swann are far better performers in this regard. Weak bowling vs GOAT ODI batman is too big a big mismatch to overcome.

And overall as I mention he lacks a steady presence who can hold the innings together. Chanderpaul can do that if he was not opening.
 
Imo we have a mix of both big hitting and technique. Kohli lamb Malik Dhoni and Flintoff are very good batsmen who can go big and play sensibly at the same time.

I don't agree with EAP. I think Kohli is right up there in terms of ability and power. He plays spin and pace equally well and he is also good at building an innings if the need be. Allan Lamb has an average of 40 playing in the 80s which is very impressive.

As for our bowlers, Freddie is a much better bowler than aaqib in the limited overs game. Aaqib has an overall average of 31 vs freddies 24 .Freddie can swing it both ways and also mastered reverse swing, just like aaqib. As for Simon O'Donnell he is a wily bowler who stifles runs and makes it hard for batsmen to score. In the 1987 final for instance, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that he was key in Aussie win by 7 runs. He had figures of 1/35 off 10 bowling as third change bowler (where McDermott and the likes conceded at 4.5 rpo). Scoring against him isn't easy like it's being made out here. Swann will get no help here for spin and even if he gets, his spin is ineffective going by his record in India.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
I don't rate Shoaib Malik's bowling or Shakib Hassan's all round performance all that highly. Viv Richards probably has better bowling figures than Malik. His overall bowling would be sorely tested with these weakness. Aaqib Javed and Swann are far better performers in this regard. Weak bowling vs GOAT ODI batman is too big a big mismatch to overcome.
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Shoaib was decent, but Shakib is good. He's not appreciated as much because 1/3 of the games came against minnows or whatever. But considering this era is full of big hitting and insane runs, he's held his own very well on more than one occasion. He can match or come close to matching Swann in my opinion.
To add to that, Swann in Indian conditions was considerably worse (albeit Indians are experts at Spin).
 
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