Nick Powell

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Tooni said:
Until we have an alternate to current reserve league we should really stay away from signings like these. It does nothing but stagnate the development of young players at a very crucial stage of their career.

If we are convinced by the potential then we are better off agreeing a future fee but leaving the player where they are until we feel they are actually ready to stake a claim in first team.
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Err no. Struggle to think of how playing for Crewe would be better for his development than training day in day out with the likes of Scholes, Rooney and Van Persie.

Plus he was playing a more attacking role there, then one which we are trying to mould him into here.

If we need to give him experience then we can always loan him like with Cleverley.
 
Sarni said:
And he's 2 years older, 20 already. He might not make it here but he should at least be a decent Premier League/Championship footballer on the basis of what I've seen, he's taking too long to develop though.
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Powell has been playing first team football since he was 16; he won last years League 2 young player of the year award; he also picked up all 5 of Crewe's in house player awards and he scored a wonder goal in the play off final at Wembley; this season he has played in the Champions League and the Premier League.

Comparing him to Lingard is pointless.
 
Cevno said:
Err no. Struggle to think of how playing for Crewe would be better for his development than training day in day out with the likes of Scholes, Rooney and Van Persie.

Plus he was playing a more attacking role there, then one which we are trying to mould him into here.

If we need to give him experience then we can always loan him like with Cleverley.
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I always find that hard to accept, yes it's true you'll always learn a thing or two training with players like those but they are just the nuggets. What really aids the development is playing week in and week out and learning from your mistakes in an actual football match against quality opposition.

Just look at the way Will Hughes has come along in last six months and compare that to Powell's and there lies your answer.

I struggle to understand the moulding part either, you don't suddenly switch from becoming an attacking midfielder to a deep lying one by just training. It takes years and dozens of matches.

Getting a loan move like Cleverley is not as easy as you seem to be suggesting. It's mainly because clubs have their own ambitions and priorities, it's very hard for everything to come together and takes a lot of luck. The probabilities are lower than you think.
 
holdsteady said:
I'd say Lingard is at that level but struggles a bit physically is all.
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Every level he's played at he's struggled physically at first, but battles through it and adapts- then thrives. What is the point in loaning him to them if they won't give him the time to adapt.

All I'm saying is if clubs want to borrow one of the most promising young English midfielders- one with league experience already- I'd prefer to give him to a club that gives our other lads a chance. I doubt Lingard has even reached an hour in playtime at Leicester- why reward that?
 
It depends Tooni. We all know players develop differently and depending where they are in the development, do we decide to send them out on loan. You make some good points about loans but loans are a risk within themselves. Take Macheda for example, he's been extremely unlucky with his loan spells and has got little experience as a results. I'm not sure how much he trains with the first team but it seems right now he's languishing in the reserves and as you say, it can be quite a problem.

You also have to think about the financial side of things. The longer we wait to snag up a young talent, the more likely we are to miss out on said talent. Jones is a great example of this. Agreeing on a future fee and letting the player languish with his team doesn't really go well with negotiations nowadays. We wouldn't have got Jones if we went down that route. We usually try and get the first option on some of these players like we did with Henriquez. Then we move on from there.

Also letting a player like Powell remain with his team might not give him the necessary experience he needs to stake a place in our first team or develop in the way he would like. The lad has already mentioned how he has learned so much from going on tour with the club and being in amongst the first team. It may not seem like much since we arent at the training ground but I'd argue what he's learning from our players in training is potentially more valuable than playing with Crewe. How many players get the luxury to train with Paul Scholes? Think about the tips he gets in training as well. It's up to him to integrate those tips into his game and don't worry, he'll get the experience.

That being said, having regular games is important for a player's development. Yet from what I've seen, the timing of when they get these regular games is important as well. In Powell's case, I think a loan will do him good and I don't think we've done anything to stagnate his development. He's a very young lad and I think you want to make sure he is ready for the challenge before he gets regular games either for United or another club. Overvaluing regular game time could lead to the player being sent on loan too early and a possible dent in confidence.

There's a lot of various factors to think about regarding youth development which is why it can be difficult to adopt a one size fits all approach. You're right about the reserves though. We have to see how this reserves league idea plays out. I know some people think it's not working already and they may be right. I don't watch enough youth football to know meself. However, I think the idea is good and we should see how the effects of this new implementation impact youth development across the nation.
 
Tooni said:
I always find that hard to accept, yes it's true you'll always learn a thing or two training with players like those but they are just the nuggets. What really aids the development is playing week in and week out and learning from your mistakes in an actual football match against quality opposition.
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We signed Powell from Crewe, who have just got promoted to League One. Is that quality opposition? Are you suggesting it would have been better for Powell's development to stay at Crewe and play in League One? I think you underestimate the intensity of training. For example Roy Keane said that when the United first team played the reserves, back in the days when Scholes, Giggs and all were in the reserves, the games were more competitive than many Premiership matches.

Just look at the way Will Hughes has come along in last six months and compare that to Powell's and there lies your answer.
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What? :wenger:
Powel has most likely made significant improvements.

I struggle to understand the moulding part either, you don't suddenly switch from becoming an attacking midfielder to a deep lying one by just training. It takes years and dozens of matches.
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He is a midfielder. Ferguson, United staff, the Crewe manager and Powell himself all say he is a midfielder. Crewe played him in attacking midfield as they wanted him further up the pitch because he was too good for that level.
 
Stobzilla said:
Cameron Stewart as well.
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Oh yeah, didn't think of scrolling down to the "players on loan" bit of Hull's Wikipedia. They've sent him out to Burnley.

I haven't seen any u21s football from this year, has Powell stood out a lot at that level?
 
Platato, I understand the points you are trying to put across but all things considered our track record doesn't really look good when it comes to such signings recently. Specially after the Roman era where the standards and consistency expected from first team players makes it almost impossible for youngsters to be given game time on consistent basis. However, I disagree with the point that playing games is not the most important aspect of development. Training with top players helps but it's all meaningless when they actually can't play meaningful games week in and week out.

The point you make about loans is exactly what I'm saying too. A loan deal which ends up beneficial for all the parties concerned is very hard to come by and we shouldn't trust that as a channel of development. We find it hard enough finding loan deals for our youngsters as it is.

What you are saying about Jones or even Smalling for that case is what my point is actually. These are youngsters we knew will get game time and will be part of the first team and that has helped them a lot with the development. Do you think Jones or Smalling would be the players they are just by training with our first team squad ? Problem comes when we sign someone who is too good for reserve level but still not yet at the level expected of a first team member. This is the main problem we face with most of our youngsters in reserve and buying more such players is just adding to the problem.

We signed Powell from Crewe, who have just got promoted to League One. Is that quality opposition? Are you suggesting it would have been better for Powell's development to stay at Crewe and play in League One? I think you underestimate the intensity of training. For example Roy Keane said that when the United first team played the reserves, back in the days when Scholes, Giggs and all were in the reserves, the games were more competitive than many Premiership matches.
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That's smart of you to pick the exception rather than rule to drive your point. It's pretty obvious that the '92 bunch were special so doesn't make sense to make that comparison. There is a reason we send our youngsters to lower division rather than let them play in reserves and quality of games is a major reason for that.

Johnny Evans spent half a year playing a dozen games for Royal Antwerp and I'm pretty sure that helped a lot with his development as a player. Not to forget Cleverley learning curve really started to take a steep turn with his loan spell to Leicester who were in league one then. You are underestimating what regular playing time could do a youngsters development. Macheda, Rossi and Gibson are few example of players who started to stagnate because of lack of regular games.

What?
Powel has most likely made significant improvements.
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Alright, if you say so.

He is a midfielder. Ferguson, United staff, the Crewe manager and Powell himself all say he is a midfielder. Crewe played him in attacking midfield as they wanted him further up the pitch because he was too good for that level.
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Point is ? Are you trying to say he is a defensive minded midfielder or just a midfielder who is getting moulded into a midfielder ?
 
Tooni said:
Alright, if you say so.
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He's 18 and has already had a season and half of first team football.

He's spent a whopping SIX months training with some of the worlds finest.

He's played in the Premier League and the Champions League.

He's EIGHTEEN.

He will probably be loaned out at some point in the future.

He's still EIGHTEEN.

But no, we're screwing his development and shouldn't have signed him :wenger:

And he hasn't developed at all in his six months here according to you :wenger:
Based off....nothing... :RETARDSMILEY:

Go back into your hole and stop posting.
 
:lol:

Calm down, mate.

He played two games in total and half the season has gone by. His playing time is going to be even more difficult in the second half of the season given the pressure around getting results.

Yes, we could send him out on loan but there is no guarantee it will work out. He might spend his time in someone else's bench than ours. When he comes back he is likely to find himself in the same position again.
 
I'd like to see him get a Premier League loan if possible.

Arsenal would probably give him the games he needs!
 
Tooni said:
:lol:

Calm down, mate.

He played two games in total and half the season has gone by. His playing time is going to be even more difficult in the second half of the season given the pressure around getting results.

Yes, we could send him out on loan but there is no guarantee it will work out. He might spend his time in someone else's bench than ours. When he comes back he is likely to find himself in the same position again.
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There is never any guarantee anything will work out. He could have stayed with Crewe and that could work out, but he could also stagnate. He could play for us, get injured and stagnate.

What you are saying though is that this and that could happen, but you have the solution; we shouldn't buy him if we are not going to play him.

Powell is 18 - he knows he's not going to play just yet. Michael Owen stated that he was played too much at the age of 17-18 which led to his injuries. Perhaps not all young players need to play every match to mature? Not all players need to have a great breakthrough at 18.

Ferguson has proven that he is one of the best at developing young players into top class players. All things considered, I think Powell will mature at United with the winning mentality of the club; I think his abilities will improve as he trains with Scholes, Giggs, Carrick and the like. Lastly, I think he will improve as a player as a result of these things. Maybe he will be a starter in the future, but it is ridiculous that he should be considered an automatic starter at 18 at top levels, and I think he knows this.
 
Rossa said:
There is never any guarantee anything will work out. He could have stayed with Crewe and that could work out, but he could also stagnate. He could play for us, get injured and stagnate.

What you are saying though is that this and that could happen, but you have the solution; we shouldn't buy him if we are not going to play him.

Powell is 18 - he knows he's not going to play just yet. Michael Owen stated that he was played too much at the age of 17-18 which led to his injuries. Perhaps not all young players need to play every match to mature? Not all players need to have a great breakthrough at 18.

Ferguson has proven that he is one of the best at developing young players into top class players. All things considered, I think Powell will mature at United with the winning mentality of the club; I think his abilities will improve as he trains with Scholes, Giggs, Carrick and the like. Lastly, I think he will improve as a player as a result of these things. Maybe he will be a starter in the future, but it is ridiculous that he should be considered an automatic starter at 18 at top levels, and I think he knows this.
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Yes there is never a guarantee about anything but you could always try to minimise the risk as much as possible or reduce the uncertainty, that's what planning is for.

You are comparing with Michael Owen, which is same as what Rowem did earlier by comparing with class of '92. You are comparing a player who has played only a couple of games in half a season to a player who played almost all the games in a season. It's talking in extremes, a young player can still get decent playing time without being burnt out.

No one is expecting him to be a starter at this age, if you watch the reserves you can see he is not even at the level that Pogba was at but why not just buy the players when they are actually ready to compete for a place in first team ?

We really don't have a platform to offer these youngsters any meaningful game time unless by sending them on a loan which again begs the question of why buy them in first place ?
 
Tooni said:
Yes there is never a guarantee about anything but you could always try to minimise the risk as much as possible or reduce the uncertainty, that's what planning is for.

You are comparing with Michael Owen, which is same as what Rowem did earlier by comparing with class of '92. You are comparing a player who has played only a couple of games in half a season to a player who played almost all the games in a season. It's talking in extremes, a young player can still get decent playing time without being burnt out.

No one is expecting him to be a starter at this age, if you watch the reserves you can see he is not even at the level that Pogba was at but why not just buy the players when they are actually ready to compete for a place in first team ?

We really don't have a platform to offer these youngsters any meaningful game time unless by sending them on a loan which again begs the question of why buy them in first place ?
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I would have thought the answer was fairly obvious. He'll become a much better player for having access to our staff and facilities and will get to play against world class players every day. Not to mention the fact that by the time they're ready for our first team they cost multiples of the original fee while also losing the chance of moulding them as you see fit.
 
Tooni said:
Yes there is never a guarantee about anything but you could always try to minimise the risk as much as possible or reduce the uncertainty, that's what planning is for.

You are comparing with Michael Owen, which is same as what Rowem did earlier by comparing with class of '92. You are comparing a player who has played only a couple of games in half a season to a player who played almost all the games in a season. It's talking in extremes, a young player can still get decent playing time without being burnt out.

No one is expecting him to be a starter at this age, if you watch the reserves you can see he is not even at the level that Pogba was at but why not just buy the players when they are actually ready to compete for a place in first team ?

We really don't have a platform to offer these youngsters any meaningful game time unless by sending them on a loan which again begs the question of why buy them in first place ?
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That bolded part is too easy to answer; it is to mould talented young players into top class players for a relatively low purchasing price. The alternative is to buy like City - why not keep traditions? It has worked with Rafael, has it not?

The meaningful platform is there at Carrington training with some of the best players in the world; too many youngsters think they can play at the highest level way too young. They must mature first in their mind and body. Powell will get plenty of game time. He has only been here six months. I think you are much too premature here.

Edit: What about all the young players getting game time at Arsenal? Are all of them super stars today? Game time is not the only solution.
 
feck wifi. I just made a long response to your reply Tooni and then it got wiped out because the internet just cut out! It was actually a good post...for once.

Anyway, as others have said, I think you need to realize that it takes time to build these players into the top class players we want them to become. It doesn't wholly rely on experience. You have to give them the right tools to make the most of that experience. Plus he's going to be a future CM for us (hopefully). He needs to learn our ways and how we operate. Once our staff feels he's ready, he will get more games. There's nothing wrong with biding time.

Plus playing youngsters against quality opposition can work against their development if they're not ready. You want to give them a platform to succeed.
 
Brophs said:
Not to mention the fact that by the time they're ready for our first team they cost multiples of the original fee
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I think that's the real point here isn't it? We buy them young because it makes business sense for us. We then look to advance their development as best we can. But the first priority is the club, not the development of a teenager who could go on to be brilliant playing for your rivals.
 
The way I see it - if a talented player like Powell doesn't improve from watching and training with Kagawa, van Persie, Rooney, Scholes, Giggs, Carrick etc - he will never learn!
 
I daresay Powell would certainly have improved training with top players and being coached in a top club environment in the last 6 months. He's a looked a talented player whenever he has been used in the first team for United.

There comes a time when the only way he will be able to make the transistion to being a member of the first team squad is by playing and the normal way that is done is by being loaned out. I can see him going to a championship club for the remainder of this season and then getting a full year with a PL club. After that he should be ready to challenge for a first team spot.

It's a tried and tested formula and worked wonders for the likes of Evans, Cleverley, Welbeck, etc. All of whom are now part of the first team squad.
 
Ruud10 said:
Powell must not be loaned out to fukkin Wigan, QPR or anyone else.
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It's probably the only way he will get the game time needed to be ready to play for a team such as United and Wigan did wonders for Cleverley. I'd be happy enough Powell getting a year under Martinez, the same way way Cleverley did after his year at Watford. Welbeck did well under Bruce for a year and Evans did well working under Keano for 18 months.

Lower PL clubs are where these talented young players tend to get their first break as they don't have the resources the other teams do. This worked for Johnie Evans and Danny Welbeck at Sunderland and outside of United this worked for Wilshire and Sturridge as well.

If we done the same with Pogba he might well have not fecked us off for Juve either.

Sure to happen in the next 18 months and more often than not it works in the youngster's favour.
 
Loans can work out well, like Welbeck and Cleverley. However knowing our luck it would be like Fabio, Macheda, Rossi, Bebe etc.
 
Baxter said:
Loans can work out well, like Welbeck and Cleverley. However knowing our luck it would be like Fabio, Macheda, Rossi, Bebe etc.
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Rossi's loan to Parma worked really well for him in the second half of 06/07 and showed he could score goals in a top level league and in fairness to Fabio he's been slowed down by injuries as much as anything. Still featuring at the moment and with half a season left for more experience.

Macheda's loans has always been a waste of time but I think we are just putting him and Bebe in the shop window as they are never going to make it with United.

Realistically it's the obvious thing to do with a youngster when playing them in the reserves and occasional dead rubber game is counter productive for them.
 
More Rossi to Newcastle. And Bebe couldn't even put himself in the shop window at Besiltas as he done his cruciate very soon into his loan. I think we've had pretty shit luck with loans.
 
Baxter said:
More Rossi to Newcastle. And Bebe couldn't even put himself in the shop window at Besiltas as he done his cruciate very soon into his loan. I think we've had pretty shit luck with loans.
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Bebe was unlucky yeah.

Rossi's to Newcastle did not work out so we loaned him to Parma and he got the experience and playing time he needed. At the end of the day, the reason we decided to sell him was because we had Rooney, Saha, Ronaldo and had just 'signed' Tevez. He averaged a goal every 2 games in his spell with Parma.

Back on topic, I don't know why anyone would be against Powell going down the championship and then PL loan route, mind you. The potential gain is him having alot of experience and be ready to really make an impact for the first team. He's not going to get that any other way.
 
Yeah in fairness, as you said, Rossi certainly had a very good spell at Parma. Thinking about him, is he still injured? He picked up 2 serious knee injuries almost back to back. Shame. Pretty sure Barca were heavily linked with him.
 
I agree with whoever said that we should loan all our youth players to Wigan. I disagree with the fecking norman who seems to think he knows more about developing youth players than the Manchester United coaching staff and manager.
 
Brophs said:
I would have thought the answer was fairly obvious. He'll become a much better player for having access to our staff and facilities and will get to play against world class players every day. Not to mention the fact that by the time they're ready for our first team they cost multiples of the original fee while also losing the chance of moulding them as you see fit.
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Second part is basically what I guess is the reality. Take enough punts and one is likely to come off but then if you average it out then I don't think we would be gaining much either. My point is for every Powell(assuming he turns out good), we'd have to suffer a Diouf, Manucho, Tosic, Bebe, etc..

The moulding and facilities point basically goes out of the window when we have to rely on sending them out to gain the necessary playing time and experience. I can't really get behind the thought process of signing someone with a view to loaning them out again. If all the top clubs start doing that then we will have all the promising youngsters in the country caught in a web of uncertainty. Just consider the following two situation:

1. Player A gets signed by Club A which is basically United but can't really break into first team yet because he still needs to work on his game more which he is only likely to get by playing somewhere. After the initial excitement dies down he finds himself playing in reserves game and has to really on going to loan to an external club where no matter what the manager promises he's only looking for short term benefits from the deal. There is a lot of uncertainty about the next move, next club, etc.

2. Player B gets signed by Club B and gets to regularly play as it is his level. This cycle goes on correspondingly with his rate of development.

Which do you honestly think is a more conducive scenario for a youngster to develop in ?

I understand we have to put our youngsters through point 1 because we don't have any other choice as they came through our academy but I just can't get behind the thought process of buying someone and putting them through the same.

I agree with whoever said that we should loan all our youth players to Wigan. I disagree with the fecking norman who seems to think he knows more about developing youth players than the Manchester United coaching staff and manager.
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Mate, I just wanted to let you know that it's perfectly possible to put your point across without getting unnecessarily personal. Contradictory to what belief you might have, it only makes you look like an desperate old lady flashing her tits for a few minutes of attention unless you've still not reached your puberty yet in which case you might find it funny.

I also think you seem incapable of understanding the point of a forum.

Ferguson said. "I don't know how I can answer it other than to say, with Van Persie coming in and Wayne Rooney, you tend to rely on the experience of these players. But what we have to try and do is alternate selections so Danny feels he is making a contribution.

"At the moment, we have tended to play him wide left. He is capable of playing there and he can still provide a threat coming off the side of a game, but he is a natural centre-forward and he will get opportunities."
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This is what Ferguson said about plans on how to integrate Welback. It's safe to assume sometimes even the best don't have answer for everything and a forum I believe is a place to have such discussions.
 
Seen a few rumours on the internet that he may be joining Peterborough on loan for the rest of the season.

Apparently, he may have been at their game on Saturday.
 
Don't know what we've got planned for Powell, but I feel as if the right thing to do would be to keep him training round players of the sort of level we have at this club for now. There is a lot of time for him to go out on loan in the future without him seesawing up and down the leagues again.

Also, one thing we're going to have to monitor closely with him is his development in terms of the role we want him to play. He looks talented enough to play in a whole variety of positions, but there is a lot of work to done in terms of his positional sense at the moment. To me, he looks really well suited to play behind the forward, but we've already got Kagawa and Rooney there who are clearly miles better than him at this point.

If we are to make him a midfielder, I really can't think of anything better than for him to be training alongside Paul Scholes (and also to a lesser extent Tom Cleverley). What Powell lacks, Scholes has a shit load of. Suppose it all depends on how urgently Fergie feels he needs first team football, and there's also a fair enough view that positional sense is largely a confidence thing that will improve the more a youngster plays in a competitive environment.
 
KingEric7 said:
If we are to make him a midfielder, I really can't think of anything better than for him to be training alongside Paul Scholes (and also to a lesser extent Tom Cleverley). What Powell lacks, Scholes has a shit load of. Suppose it all depends on how urgently Fergie feels he needs first team football, though.
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My thoughts as well. Scholes is only likely to be here for another six months and Powell can learn a lot more from having him around and seeing him train/play than from playing regularly in a different position for Peterborough.
 
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