Perhaps it's not true, but it should be. Being world class should mean being the best player in your position and role, but I don't want to derail the thread.
N'Golo Kante | Off to Chelsea
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Matuidi isn't a defensive midfielder. He's a box to box player as we just saw with France and I saw multiple times as a Chelsea fan when we played PSG in the CL.
To be honest, none of the top European clubs play with a DM. They don't need to, really.
So there are only 11 world class players? Ridiculous.
Dani Alves, Marcelo, and Sergio Ramos are regularly in that bogus XI. They certainly aren't the best in their positions in the world.
Why isn't anyone else going for him? He was the best player in the league last season.
No one needs him? Tottenham have Dier and Wanyama. Arsenal have Xhaka in his position. City have the Fernandos'. We have Schneiderlin. Chelsea have Matic. Maybe they want a replacement for Matic. Barca have Busquets. He isnt big enough for Real yet. Bayern are stocked as well. PSG might take him if he is still available next summer. Also teams would like to see if he can repeat his performances and be consistent this season.
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Box to box literally means being able to do what Kante does and not be a waste at the other end of the pitch.
There should only be 11 world class players yes. Only the best in their positions should be seen as the best in the world, not everyone can be the best.
I didn't even mention this XI I'm not sure which you're even talking about. All I was saying is that only the absolute indisputable best should be called world class.
But there aren't any indesputable best. Dani Alves was voted into the World XI. Is he the best in his position in the world? No. Same with Marcelo. David Luiz was in it last year.
By your logic is Suarez not world class? Aguero? Pogba is considered by many to be world class and isn't the best in his position in the world. Is David De Gea not world class because Neur is better? Of course he is.
Don't agree. Neymar and Ronaldo both occupy the same position and are both world class.
We need creativity in midfield more than we need Kante. No way would I want him instead of Pogba.
Mourinho will probably try to fix Schneiderlin for the defensive role
I think you're being optimistic here. Schweinsteiger was an amazing footballer and a joy to watch, and he' still definitely capable of moments of quality. I don't think we'll ever seem him get near to his best in a United shirt though, despite his relatively young age of 32 at the start of the season, I think his injuries have done him in.
As for this thread, there's definitely some underrating of Kante going on, I think he'd walk into any premiership side based on his form last season. There are question marks over his passing, but I think he's not as technically limited as some are making out on here, he's very good at carrying the ball forward and combined with his brilliant ball recovering skills he can create counters all by himself while the other team are in transition.
Very logical. As much as I rate him, maybe he has more ability than value to top clubs at the moment. I can he but think he'd be a very good signing at £20m or even £30.
He can carry the ball well and he is a decent passer too. Same lazy stereotypes being banded about as always. Because he is such a workhorse he must be limited on the ball. Because he's a great tackler, he must be a shite passer. Etc.
Not signing him for this price seems stupid for me regardless of who we have when we basically have nobody like him.
I totally agree with this, I don't understand why both Manchester teams, Arsenal, 'pool aren't trying to get him.
In my opinion he's better than Schneiderlin, Fernando, Coquelin, Henderson and would be a useful asset to all these sides.
Kante-Mensah with Pogba ahead would be awesome. Well balanced with one tall, one small, one in between. One defensive, one attacking and one in between. Perfect balance, lots of strength, contested ball winning and drive.
Saying we don't need Kante because we have Messrs. Carrick & Schweinsteiger is absurd. We can't rely on those guys to provide anything any more.
Saying we don't need Kante because we have Messrs. Carrick & Schweinsteiger is absurd. We can't rely on those guys to provide anything any more.
I agree though I think, maybe, the desire to give Schneiderlin one more chance is behind our decision to ignore this signing. Schneiderlin, prior to signing for us, has been one of the most dominant defensive minded midfield players in the league so Mourinjo might believe he has it in him to play such a role for us.
Regarding your second paragraph. I think it's more about rating Kante right. There are way too many world class, best midfielder in the league calls in this thread and other threads than actual fair assessment.
Kante was best midfield "performer" last season. Key word here is performer. Hazard has terrible season, while Willian has his best season/ best Chelsea winger. Is Willian's best season better than Hazard's? I don't think so. Similar to how Kante vs the other quality midfielder in the league.
The way Kante carries/runs with the ball is not brilliant. To describe it, let take example of Yaya Toure or Dembele. When these 2 run with the ball through midfield, the way they run means to penetrate the opponent team throughout. What I meant is when they attack, they won't shine away from beating the defensive line and go all the way if the chance exists. So the defenders when facing this type of player, their heads would be busy defending these possibilities: will the attacker pass, will the attack shoot, will the attacker tries to run past me, will the attacker just try to draw me out of position, will he just buying time until support arrive,
In Kante case, his run if you pay close attention, Kante doesn't commit to attack the defensive line. Most of the time, he tries to run win the ball until he can find a pass. Kante is benefited by Leicester set up, that he is allowed to go hunting for the ball and there is few opponents player back to defend. Seeing France games in Euro where France set up differently from Leicester, Kante play deeper role and opponents stay compact and deep, the way Kante runs with the ball mostly is pointless.
Kante is not shit at passing, but definitely not into very good bracket. I saw people moaning about Matuidi's passing. I don't see Kante's passing is any better. Kante will do well if being used correctly, but not one you can rely as your reliable play maker, or attacking outlet.
There is no calm head in that trio you suggest unless you want another Pogba as #6. All seems to athletic and get physical type (Pogba is lesser than the other 2, but still). Who would take the holding role between Kante and TFM? One who is inexperience and young while the other is proven as all action mid while also inexperienced in sole holding role. And what if we need to control the game through ball possession?
The likes of Carrick and Bastian if being managed correctly can dominate game with their passing in possession based game, which in some circumstances are more comfortable than defending deep and getting physical with the like of Weat Brom, Sunderland.
Seems Kante's now nothing more than a great workhorse according to most caf posters... Could have sworn I've seen thousands of "wow Kante!", "we must buy Kante, did you see that wtf", "what.a.beast.", "kante is simply amazeballs!", "my player of the year", comments fly by in football forum match threads last season...
That's not true at all. Sure they tried to sign big names, which big club doesn't?
Shaw, Herrera, Blind, Rojo, Schneiderlin, Depay, Bailly are not big names and I have missed few more.
I really did enjoy watching Kante this season, and I would be all for buying him if Mou wanted him.
However, unless Blind is found surplus to requirements, wouldn't it be a possibility to push him back into the MF in this position (isn't that what we signed him for)? He's clearly proven that he knows how to tackle, doing a decent job at CB this season, he has a football brain and can pass. Perhaps his physicality would be an issue, but I'm just putting it out there. I trust I'll get some pushback from certain people over this, but I'm merely pointing out that we might have a reasonable version of a Kante already playing for us?
However, unless Blind is found surplus to requirements, wouldn't it be a possibility to push him back into the MF in this position (isn't that what we signed him for)? He's clearly proven that he knows how to tackle, doing a decent job at CB this season, he has a football brain and can pass. Perhaps his physicality would be an issue, but I'm just putting it out there. I trust I'll get some pushback from certain people over this, but I'm merely pointing out that we might have a reasonable version of a Kante already playing for us?
Not sure how you can take consensus of most CAF posters saying Kante is workhorse. If anything it's the opposite. Most are impressed by Kante always get tuck in, all action performance. Very few actually distinguish his role in France vs Leicester set up and assess his performance according to these different role. There are more Makelele ( some call Kante a better/ more technical version!) likening posts than those try to fairly assess and compare both.
If knee jerking reaction is what it's counted as fair assessment then Otamendi was like the best CB in the world last summer while Blind should play CB for Championship team. Or as Smalling should have left us after the City game in LVG first season.
I really don't understand how some people see him as a limited player.
That would be my idea, to have a young, energetic midfield so that Carrick and Schweinsteiger can be rendered more effective, and so that they can be managed effectively.
I can't see how signing old guys like Diara and Matuidi would be doing Carrick et al. any favors.
We need players who can carry the ball forward, make the opposition mids work hard up and down the pitch as much as anything.
Carrick and Schweinsteiger dominate the game? This is not 2010. We need to find the impetus to move forward. The stagnant, holding, passing game of Van Gaal vintage needs to be replaced with something more dynamic. We need young energetic players that can win the ball and burst forward hard in numbers. Kante and Mensah can pass the ball well enough. They have the advantage that they can advance in possession through traffic. We need to break up the opposition defence. I'm sick of controlling the game with dominant passing, lazy football and possession that gets us nowhere.
I think a lot of it was because he came from nowhere, everbody was shocked at how consistent his performances were. He's a great ball winner but he's not going to break down a defence that's sat back deep. He suits Leicesters open counter attacking style well, but I think we need a more attacking player, somebody who can deliver the final ball rather than somebody to win it back.
Just because someone young doesn't mean they offer better than older guy. Mind that I am not talking about a Matuidi or Diarra here.
SAF signed a 29 year old RVP to added to his old guards and it's the last time we won PL. Other managers mismanaged and people turned on SAF and dread at signing players close to 30? Bayern got Vidal who was 28 years old, has question about his knee and behavior. Yet as last season went, Vidal eventually become Bayern best central midfielder. Someone like Gotze, Javi Martinez, Thiago have had different issue and didn't contribute as much compared to Vidal. Is Vidal worse signing because he's older?
Cliche, generalized term won't mean much. Antonio Valencia carry the ball forward well, does it matter account much for our attack during the last 4-5 years? Football is not like playing tag, that guys behind do all the running for the front men just pass it or finish it. Play making is also important. Not all passes is play making. See how Matuidi Pogba and Kante too busy with running and failed to proper play making and let 29 year old Payet took the stage in France few early games.
There is a certain balance that needed in all style. We're all sick of dominating possession football, but there is time possession is important. Had Bastian been fit and delivered the similar performance like vs France for us against Chelsea or whoever else, we would be in CL. What LVG failed is making the possession count and keeping the possession when it matters (see the irony). Mourinho doesn't like passing for the sake of possession. Still there is time a little possession is vital. What if we were ahead and it's better to keep possession since other team is better in aerial and long ball? Mourinho team is different than Big Sam team. His team is also capable of mild possession football if it's necessary.
Remember the Heynckes' Bayern who can play both possession and direct football? Why not try that than one route predictable football?
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29 years isn't that old and he was in the form of his life.
Tell the guy I was discussing with and many other posters who thinks 30 is guaranteed decline
You keep referring to how ineffectual Kante was in Euro. He's the best player in the league. Take him out of Leicester City and they'd have been bottom half. How many players could have that effect? You can't rightly assert that anyone else could have that effect in those circumstances.
He was excellent in the first and second game. It didn't work for half a game against Ireland and Deschamps made a reactionary move to scrap him.
If Schweinsteiger play the same as vs,. France? He will be fine for the most part, but what happens when a team like Arsenal or Spurs turns up the heat and we get trounced in 10 minutes of high combustion football. Carrick and Schweinsteiger get overrun and we all wring our hands and say boy, we better get ourselves a better defence! Just watch the first 20 minutes against Arsenal again and tell me what Bastian was doing then. Looking old and wasted. This has nothing to do with cliches, that's just the reality.
Possession football is useless when players are static and lacking energy. It only causes the whole team to end up in a rut. We need to be ambitious not just in terms of results but in producing high energy football. Then we'll be feared again.
There's no point talking about Vidal, 28. Bayern win the league by a country mile, what difference does it make. SAF mostly purchased young players. So he signed Van Persie and you're going to use that? I'd prefer to discuss in terms of our team and how it can be more dynamic.
He's a very mediocre passer, especially in terms of his range but everything else is in place. He's pretty good with the ball at his feet, its a mystery why his passing is so lackluster. Play him with a passer in midfield, he won't be harming us.
He's absolutely not the best player in the league and he's not even the best CM in the league anyone saying that is simply overrating him or hugely exaggerating. I personally think Mahrez had a much bigger impact on Leicester considering he was involved in many of the goals they scored. I would take kante but we don't need him and if he's a Pogba alternative that's abit of a nightmare for us as we are crying out for creativity.
I definitely don't see him as a Pogba alternative. He's a ball winner, tackler, interceptor. I read somewhere that Darmian was our most prolific tackler. That's pathetic. We need greater energy and workrate at the base of midfield. As you say, we need better creativity as well.
I'm not prepared to argue who is the best in the league. I don't think Leicester would have come close to winning without him though.
So United have 1 world class player. There is only 1 world class player in the Premier League? You are spending £100m on a player who isn't even world class.
World class for me means best in their respective position in the world. We can thank Big Ron for this term being used all the time, back in the 90's watching those champions league matches " I tell you what Clive, that xxx isnt half world class"
What! What!! Should I bother reading the rest of the post after the bolded part?
Kante was not excellent in the first few games. He did his job and the opponent was not threatening enough in his area. This's why I need to bring up the Euro games. I was in the few who was not impressed by Kante in France first few games. You can check in that. As the tournament went, it proved my point about Kante didn't do as well as somebody for some reasons hype him up.
I already stated Kante is the best midfield performer in the PL last season, and did explain how Leicester set up was different than a team who play on front foot. I used France as Kante was part of the France squad for the ease of demonstrating my point. I also explained how Kante is different from Makelele as well as their roles. One player who did an excellent job in a specific role and being young, does not mean he can do the same for another team in a different role and doesn't mean he can always improve on his current level. Kante had huge influence in Leicester team, but he is not the heart of the team. Leicester team strength lies with the team spirit combined with the correct tactic. Vardy Mahrez had similar influence, but hardly heard these 2 be called world class. I can use the same argument that remove Vardy and Mahrez from that team and they can't replicate their goals, assist, tactical role and Leicester wouldn't have won the league.
Your argument is getting weird. Please check the tactic, starting line up vs Arsenal if you want to discuss this game, and stop cherry picking. LVG had a mare of tactic that game. Everyone knows we should play with high intensity and counter attack football. LVG put Blind at CB while having to accommodate Young at LB. Play Darmian knowing Sanchez would play that wing while accommodating Memphis Rooney Mata Carrick Bastian! Bastian was the only one who showed some intensity and pressing during the period when Arsenal turned up the heat. If you want to use this specific game to point finger at a single person, then it's LVG, and he's gone.
Hiddink's Chelsea had a master class vs Pep's Barcelona in that semi final second leg. Please tell me that Barcelona team is static and lacking energy. This same Barcelona later battered us playing like energy bunny. Football is not playing tag. Possession can combine with high intensity, energy. Similar with Counter attacking team can use possession in certain period to relieve pressure and see out the game.
Bad management can feck up team dynamic with wrong tactic, wrong training, lack of motivation... LVG left Bayern in poor condition. With pretty much the same core with few changes, that team went on turn thing around and being considered one of the strongest team in history. Heynckes set his team to play possession football vs certain teams. Any tactic if being used correctly would be useful. That's the point.
Nice try, dodging the discussion. You're here arguing how this younger Kante is better than older Matuidi, Diarra, and why we should sign Kante and now don't want to talk about transfer. Let me remind you, there is no reliable source claiming Mourinho has shown any interest. By reliable source I meant the like of Di Marzio. Why discuss our team dynamic with other clubs' target?
I already explain a lot of thing in the discussion, so I don't feel the need of repeat my assessment on Kante. And I hear not any clear explanation rather than cliches.
I would pretty much agree with all that. Pogba isn't the best in the world in his position but he may well be in a few years. I don't think he's with 100 mil though.
We do only have one world class player though.
Kante was the highest rated player for France in the group stages after Payet. He was playing really well, it took a suspension and a good performance vs Iceland by the team for Deschamps to decide he didn't wanna tear that formation.
I really love this type of players, they are totally fundamental to the success of any team. You need players like Kante in order to win things and I really feel that we lack in that department. I know it is very unlikely now but I really want him here...
That's my point isn't it. I was with few other people who at the time saw that Kante did his job while being flashy. For this type of role, the Makelele role, the flashier you're, the more problem your midfield is. That's why I am said I was with a few who ain't impressed by the common hype around him from his fewer games. Kante was stepping all over Matuidi and Pogba territory and these 2 couldn't find the space to play their games. So in a sense Kante was asked to play Makelele role, but ended up playing in Petit role, while not being as good going forward, and render the team tactic useless.
Kante was all over the place vs Ireland, especially after being booked. Deschamps hooked him off and midfield became better functional. The over reliance on Payet was part of tactic error caused by Kante. Since the other players couldn't get in the game, Payet become their only outlet. With double pivot of Matuidi and Pogba, despite Pogba's sacrifice his game, the team tactic is on a higher level with Griezmann was given the right role, more space in the midfield for Matuidi and Pogba. Cissokho offer the energy on the right flank ( than stepping into other players' territory) despite little end product.
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His ability on the ball is being underrated here. He was more box to box then defensive midfielder last season. His reading of the game was very good and his technical ability, whilst unspectacular, is also very good.
He isnt a Makelele type player though. He is a Marchisio type player and that is why Conte wants him.
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