My take too.
NFL 2021
- Thread starter Raoul
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You can’t judge MVP on some mathematical probability statistic like expected wins added or WAR or Xwhatever. Frickin’ nerds.
If you watched that season and think AD didn’t deserve it, then you’re a potato.
If you watched that season and think AD didn’t deserve it, then you’re a potato.
Imagine thinking a receiver should win MVP
I’m not arguing that the league hasn’t changed. I’m arguing that the award being called the ‘MVP’ doesn’t mean that quarterbacks should always win it. Because it’s always been called the ‘MVP’ and it wasn’t always QBs winning every year. And QBs have always been the player that touches the ball on every offensive snap, whatever decade you are talking about.
Is Barry Sanders more or less valuable than Brett Favre? In 97, Favre went to the SB and the Lions lost in the Wild Card round. Yet Sanders won all the MVPs that year apart from the AP, where they shared it (I know it’s a regular season award but I’m demonstrating the eventual difference in influence).
By conception, it’s a best (or most high profile) offensive player award (apologies LT) not a most ‘valuable’ player award. If It truly was about value, it wouldn’t so often be given to players on stacked teams. The reason that QBs win it all the time now is cos the league has made a concerted effort over the last 20 years (through marketing, rule changes etc.) to make the QBs the unchallenged stars of the show. Not because QBs are inherently more valuable, because that has always been the case.
Especially when it should clearly be Brady
I know Brady wants it. Regular season MVP is one of the few areas of his resume where he’s not battering everyone else.
Yeah, basically agree.
Yeah. I mean if a player in another (high profile) position has an incredible record breaking year then they should be permitted to win unless there is also an exceptional QB.
yes, that’s what I was saying.
Don't really agree with the bolded part. If you go 2-15 and without you your team would've gone 0-17, the added value of your presence there isn't much. I am convinced the Packers would be a 9-8 team or something average like that without Rodgers, so his added value is much greater than a QB on a lowly team.
I don't think we disagree that much to be honest, I just think it's quite ridiculous that especially this year people are talking about giving it to a WR or RB, while what they've done is not particularly more impressive than what has occurred in the past, and there are two clear QB frontrunners with Brady and Rodgers who would also deserve it. I'd also probably have Burrow and Allen after them before I started thinking about a non-QB.
What if Brady was throwing to Cupp? Who then?
I think we are aligned except your QB skew is stronger than mine. I personally think in context of situation what Taylor especially, and to an extent Kupp, have done, is pretty incredible. I also disagree on where Packers would be without Rodgers. I assume you’re largely basing your 9-8 on the close games Packers have won. But my challenge to you would be, I think some of Rodgers’ play is partly why they end up close. I take the Browns game as an example again, but I’m sorry - that game can’t be used as a positive for Rodgers (being they lose that game without him) because it wasn’t like he dragged his team to a win in any way - they were like +4 in turnovers so if anything it’s an indication of how unexceptional he was.
Fair enough yeah, I just take the Jordan Love game as an example to be honest. Wouldn't be much different with someone like Daniel Jones, Baker Mayfield, ...
Of course he'd be interchangeable with someone like Mahomes, but so would Taylor be with someone like Henry or Kamara imo.
Agreed and that’s why interchangeability isn’t really something I like to put too much emphasis on.
On a different note, and not just cos of my Brady and anti-Rodgers bias, but I’m still a bit surprised that Rodgers is seen as a nail on. Brady has 5 more TDs and 1,000 more yards. Yeah I know that’s cos Rodgers missed some games but can’t start factoring in yards and TDs not gained due to absence in picking an MVP. The INTs is obviously a big skew in Rodgers’ favour but TD:INT ratio can’t be the be all and end all.
Also still catching up on games so apologies again for my usual ad hoc comments. But kudos to Herbert, who has the chargers single season TD record. That’s impressive in my books given how good Rivers was there for a long time.
The o-line argument is ridiculous. It’s football. A literal team sport. They are all supposed to function as a unit. Not just the o-line. You’re just trying to disqualify o-linemen from the discussion because their play is not that spectacular and therefore not as noticeable.
RB‘s and wr‘s are also usually much less on the field than qb‘s or linemen, for that matter. So if that disqualifies kicking personal from the discussion, so it should with rb‘s. They usually spent only half as much time on the field compared with the qb.
The difference between Tucker and Kupp is not about performance, but solely lies with positional value. And Tucker has less of such value because for one reason he‘s on the field much less. But that’s also true when comparing Peterson to any qb. The reason Justin Tucker should not become mvp is the same for Kupp, Peterson and so on. Their positional value makes it impossible to be the most valuable player.
And if positional value shouldn’t matter, than guys like Nelson, Tucker and many more have as good a claim as Kupp or Peterson.
Comparing kickers to RBs…I can’t tell if you’re serious. Are you memeing?
There are some rather weird arguments being made here.
I'm not trying to disqualify offensive linemen - that would be against my position that non-QBs should be able to win the award. My point was more that the job of the O-line is to protect the QB and create openings for the runners, which no offensive lineman does single-handedly. A good pass rusher can just move sides if he is up against a great left tackle, for example. It is extremely hard for them to stand out.
Regarding the kicker vs. running back argument, you must be joking? Adrian Peterson carried the ball 348 times in his MVP season, caught 40 passes and was obviously on the field for more plays as well. That's enough to win the MVP, even if the QBs spend more time on the. For comparison, the most active kickers in the same season had about 40 attempts, and kicked some extra points.
No. My point is that no one in their right mind would ever argue Tucker should become mvp. No matter how good he is, a kicker should never win it. Which I agree with.
Now why is that? As we already pointed out, Kickers spent much less time on the field, therefore their impact is severely limited. Or said otherwise, they don’t have the necessary positional value, to be discussed as a potential mvp.
Now my point is, that the same can be applied to running backs. They only see the field about half the time a qb does. And while the qb gets the ball at almost every offensive snap, the rb doesn’t. So compared to a qb, the rb position doesn’t have enough positional value, to be considered. Same as with kickers, but obviously to another degree.
And if one argues that this shouldn’t matter and rb‘s should be up for discussion, I believe that the same should count for other positions, such as o-linemen, linebackers, or really anyone.
Putting rb‘s or wr‘s up for discussion under the premise that we are not seeking the most valuable, but the best player, is fair. But than we have to discuss other position groups as well, because the distinction between those positions becomes arbitrary and solely dependent on individual perception, eg. personal biases.
And if Kupp qualifies for discussion, so should a load of other players at other positions.
RB has a better mandate to be MVP than WR
This is such a poor argument, it's unreal. The center has the ball virtually every play, same as the QB. So using your logic he should be more eligible for the MVP award than a running back. Simply touching the ball doesn't make you valuable. A lot of the time the QB touches he ball he simply hands it off, which all QBs do equally well - it's not difficult or valuable.
A RB is only on the field half as much as a QB if it’s RBBC, which is not always the case. You’re assuming an initial condition that doesn’t always exist: a critical fault when trying to take this scientific approach to the award. This award is not given based on some sort of science anyway. You can’t take the human element out of it. This isn’t baseball.
This sort of rigid logic applies to fantasy football, not an award that is voted on that takes the spirit of the game into account. It’s not awarded by a computer processing some algorithm of value to a team.
Jonathan Taylor didn’t have a snap percentage above 52% the first 5 weeks and only went above 70% 1 time in the first 9 weeks.
Kamara, Mixon, Zeke, … don’t have the time to look up right now but they are regularly below 70% if I remember correctly.
That’s a fair point.
I’m also not saying, that it’s wrong to choose a different approach than mine. I just believe that if positional value, or value in itself should not be the decisive factor, as most people here seem to wish, other players or positions deserve more respect. I just find it odd that if it isn’t a qb, we’re usually only talking about guys playing receiver or running back. Because that doesn’t really fit into the „it’s not about positional value“ narrative. Especially when I’m asking about Tucker, as an extreme example, and get only reasons relating to his positional value, by the very people arguing that shouldn’t be a decisive factor when comparing a qb to a rb. I just don’t see the logic there. Because then suddenly a guard is not important enough, or can only be judged as part of a unit. That’s what mostly irritates me.
Most offenses now are RBBC to some extent. AD had a 77% snap share.
Le’Veon Bell now the only healthy RB we got.
THE Bucs are pretty average with each of Godwin, AB, and Fournette not available. Grayson, Johnson and Perriman are all fairly average, and Bell won't be able to make up for Fournette's role in the passing game (he was 2nd in receptions).
A healthy and productive AB would've been critical to their playoff run and could've gotten them deep enough to where Fournette may have been available later in the playoffs.
Bell’s pretty good catching out of the backfield, that will be critical in scraping by in the playoffs.
Any specific homer announcers anyone likes / dislikes?
Always hated the Titans’ asshole since the forward pass ‘Miracle’ horseshit.
Always liked Greg Papa from his Oakland days as I lived in the Bay Area years back.
Always hated the Titans’ asshole since the forward pass ‘Miracle’ horseshit.
Always liked Greg Papa from his Oakland days as I lived in the Bay Area years back.
Just read that, if the Colts lose to the Jags, the Chargers and Raiders could BOTH get into the playoffs if they kneel their entire SNF game out and it results in a tie 
Just seen McManus made a 61 yard field goal last night, and it wasn’t even at home so no altitude assistance!
They can't drop below #4 as a division winner, unless the rule has been changed this season (I'd be in favor of a rule change as division winners should not host if the other side has a better record).
I think the 2000 number swayed the voting as American sports journalists and whomever else votes are starstruck by standout numbers. 2000 rushing numbers is the standout mark for RBs. Per say AP finished on 1932 rushing yards he's likely not winning the award over Manning/insert other stud QB.
That said, reaching that 2000 number does not always translate to MVP win. Only four have won the award of the eight that reached the mark. Sanders likely only got the award in 1997 because he topped the mark whereas runners like Henry, Johnson, and Lewis didn't get much a sniff. The most interesting is Dickerson when he broke OJ's seemingly impossible record (in two additional games) and probably would have taken the MVP if not for a certain Marino shattering passing marks that season.
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Just read that, if the Colts lose to the Jags, the Chargers and Raiders could BOTH get into the playoffs if they kneel their entire SNF game out and it results in a tie
I like the guy who sounds like a drunken Jesse Ventura. Wish we would see him do more commentary.
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We've had our own slew of injuries to balance that out. All pro Corner and tackle out, nearly all of the O-Line are second or third stringers. Aaron Jones is used only sparsely after having niggles earlier. Cobb is out just when he was peaking.
As to opposing QBs, we'd have beat both Ravens and Vikings given their form even with starting QBs.
You’d think they’d learn from former teammates’ mistakes…
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