Yeah I agree with a lot of this. The likes of Fouts and Marino, who were the most prolific passers of their day, never threw for the types of numbers that Brees and Manning have in recent years. In fact, Manning rarely threw for under 4000 yards and Brees hasn't done so since 2004, yet despite both being Super Bowl winners, neither are common in the disussion.
NFL 2017/18
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Yeah I agree with a lot of this. The likes of Fouts and Marino, who were the most prolific passers of their day, never threw for the types of numbers that Brees and Manning have in recent years. In fact, Manning rarely threw for under 4000 yards and Brees hasn't done so since 2004, yet despite both being Super Bowl winners, neither are common in the disussion.
I had to do a double-take, I thought I missed something the first time I read the post. This is a whole other argument completely, and I'll beat around the bush for now: Matt Ryan is a wonderful QB and has great stats to back it up, but he's not close to being a top 5 QB. Taking his play, decision making and everything into consideration, he's not Brady nor Rodgers.
And I'll make a nice little prediction: now that Kyle Shanahan is gone the Falcons offense won't be what it was last year, and they may not even win the division.
Well he is the MVP.
Nearly 5000 yards and 70% completion percentage, and a whisker from winning the super bowl. There is no one better in the present.
Well he is the MVP.
Nearly 5000 yards and 70% completion percentage, and a whisker from winning the super bowl. There is no one better in the present.
Fair enough
He was excellent though, he may have had the best season but he isn't the best QB, but I get your point. Anyway, a lot of the discussion about GOAT QBs really is splitting hairs. Everyone here can talk until they're blue, some of us have already!I just got finished breaking down some Blake Bortles tape, he certainly isn't the GOAT, is that something we all can agree on?!
Even as a Patriots fan, even I know that it is incredibly difficult to unilaterally say someone is the GOAT. There are so many variables and elements which go into it that it's impossible to pick.
Each one of us puts greater emphasis on certain things and that shapes our choice. Biases, focus on certain attributes, importance of rings... we all view this jazz differently.
In reality we can pretty accurately narrow it down to a select few who always come up in the conversation who are all very good with very little between them. Narrowing it down to one, well we all just try and do that for the fun of it but it really doesn't matter. Overall, if anyone says Montana I'd say fair enough. If anyone says Brady I'd say fair enough.
One that I don't quite agree with though is Rodgers. Don't get me wrong, he does things maybe no other QB could. But for all his talent he hasn't quite yet elevated the team to win rings. And without getting into whether rings mean much or not, I do think you need to win a certain number of Super Bowls to even be considered in the debate (say 2?).
Each one of us puts greater emphasis on certain things and that shapes our choice. Biases, focus on certain attributes, importance of rings... we all view this jazz differently.
In reality we can pretty accurately narrow it down to a select few who always come up in the conversation who are all very good with very little between them. Narrowing it down to one, well we all just try and do that for the fun of it but it really doesn't matter. Overall, if anyone says Montana I'd say fair enough. If anyone says Brady I'd say fair enough.
One that I don't quite agree with though is Rodgers. Don't get me wrong, he does things maybe no other QB could. But for all his talent he hasn't quite yet elevated the team to win rings. And without getting into whether rings mean much or not, I do think you need to win a certain number of Super Bowls to even be considered in the debate (say 2?).
Raoul wants to big up Favre for having no supporting class but Rodgers won a Super Bowl basically on his own.
Nonsense. The offensive game-planning has evolved tenfold since Fouts and Marino et al. The emphasis is on a pass first, second, third, any situation whereas the running game dominated up until the late 90s/early 00s did the passing game truly explode. You're being intellectually dishonest to push your agenda.
What part of my post is nonsense ?
Marino's 1984 season was ridiculous especially at a time when the running game dominated the league (which Miami sorely lacked).
He threw for more yards, 5084, than 11 teams managed in total offense.
He threw for more touchdowns, 48, than 21 teams managed scoring on offense.
Marino would have put up routine 5000 yards/40 tds seasons in the current era.
He threw for more yards, 5084, than 11 teams managed in total offense.
He threw for more touchdowns, 48, than 21 teams managed scoring on offense.
Marino would have put up routine 5000 yards/40 tds seasons in the current era.
Referencing that neither routinely threw for 4000 yards when Fouts (79-81) did it thee times and Marino six times (84-86, 88, 92, 94), practically unheard of in those days. Fouts averaged 320.3 ypg in the '82 strike season (5125 projected for 16 games) and Marino averaged 270.4 ypg in the '87 strike season (4326 projected for 16 games), both effectively losing another 4000 yard season due to CBA/union issues.
Fouts played in a vacuum very similar to Brees. Payton took the Air Coryell system and blended it with Walsh's West Coast to create the near perfect passing vacuum. I won't be surprised to see his next starting QB routinely top 4000 yards, not that that will diminish Brees' greatness. Look at how Jeff Garcia picked up where Steve Young left off when playing in a vacuum. Of course, Payton will need a competent player obviously.
I remember it well. That season was more a "stars aligned' type season where the Marx Brothers both had phenomenal years. Unfortunately, Marino never got better than his 2nd year so there's no indication that he would've had the consistency to do what Manning and Brees have.
Doing it for 2-3 years isn't exactly routine, especially when you compare to Brees and Manning having done it 11 and 14 times respectively (several of which were 5k seasons).
Well if throwing for nearly 9000 yards and 74 tds in 85-86, the strike year in 87 halting another 4000/35 td season, then tossing 4400 and 28 in 88, and on and on, isn't getting better I'm not sure what constitutes ascending. The only blemish I see on Marino's CV is that he could never lead the Dolphins back to a SB appearance, which he shares the blame along with Shula and the supporting case. But that's not to say Marino never got better, he obviously produced a Hall of Fame elite career.
Everyone knows if Marino was playing under Walsh in SF he'd have won multiple titles whereas Montana wouldn't have won squat in Miami.
84 was his career year in terms of yards, TDs, yards per game, QB rating, and Super Bowl appearance. He was a very good QB throughout the rest of his career, but that was his peak, which sadly happened in only his 2nd year in the league.
It was an exceptional occurrence in the 80s but common on today's era hence Brees and Manning constantly doing such. They're also elite passers granted Brees is nowhere near Manning's greatness despite gaudy statistics. Even Ryan and Stafford routinely top 4000 yards and they're nowhere near the HOF level of a Marino, at least not yet.
http://www.thestatszone.com/articles/comparing-nfl-players-quarterback-passing-yards
But it's not like Marino had a Namath or Rypien year and faded away. He was a routine PB caliber QB that consistently placed in the top five in numerous passing categories annually. You're basically stating that what Marino did in 84 and never surpassed is akin to saying Mantle never achieving another triple crown after 1956 (his sixth season) was a sign he never get better, or Walter Payton rushing for 1852 yards in his third season but never reaching that mark again despite topping 1200 yards rushing in eight of the next nine seasons and routinely in the top five annually (the '82 strike season interrupting his streak).
Just because a player doesn't equal a ridiculous feat in the seasons coming doesn't equate to not getting better. Babe Ruth hit 60 homers in 1927 but must not have been as good or better in the following season, despite leading the league in homers the next four years, never recording fewer than 146 RBIs or batting lower than .323. Messi hasn't scored 50 league goals in five years.
The link you posted is a bit flawed in that it suggests that passing volume has gone up today and that QBs from older generations should have their stats adjusted accordingly. What it doesn't say is that QB ratings have all gone up since the 80s. QBs today not only throw for more yards, they are more accurate, throw for more TDs, and throw less interceptions. We know this because QB ratings of the top QBs from 2000-present are significantly better than those in the 80s. From 2000-present the league leading QBs in each year had a QB rating of over 100 nine times, whereas before that it only happened twice in the history of the NFL (1984 and 1976). So its not just a matter of QBs being more pass happy today. They are literally better in all major categories as evidenced by the QB ratings.
Not really the best comparisons since both players were well into their respective primes when they had their career years.
Fact remains that like Marino both Messi and Ruth continued to play at elite levels but have not/never surpassed a ridiculous one-off season. But these three set the records for others to break.
I was hoping to see some updates on the coming season with so many new posts.
Decent discussion but can surely be moved to a new thread?
Down with mega threads etc etc.
Decent discussion but can surely be moved to a new thread?
Down with mega threads etc etc.
What updates were you hoping for given that the season doesn't start for a few more weeks ?
This is a bit of a niche thread on the Caf and has always operated as a general hub of discussion. Same in the MLB and NBA threads. We are family, fam.
I've lost track of what the actual debate here even is, if I'm honest
Looks like Siemian has nailed down the QB slot at Denver.
Consensus seems to be that Lynch looks mint in training but goes to pieces in a game. Must be a pretty bad confidence/mental issue. Wondering whether it might be his undoing.
Consensus seems to be that Lynch looks mint in training but goes to pieces in a game. Must be a pretty bad confidence/mental issue. Wondering whether it might be his undoing.
I watched the Broncos-49ers game the other night and was actually impressed with Kyle Sloter. He came into the game and went 7 for 7.
Thought Lynch and Siemian did ok. Expect Siemian to retain the job.
He WAS the best last season. New season. Clean slate.
Rodgers was hampered by his first 4 games, but what he did over last 8 games plus playoff run is better than what Ryan did full season. Ryan deserves MVP last year, but no way he's an elite QB.
Yes, as in he was the best player during the last period of time we have available to evaluate players.
Siemian is gonna be the best QB in the league this year. Obvs.
Still going to get beaten by the G-Men. Obvs
You can't put Ryan in the elite conversation after 1 elite season, being average up until then. That's daft. Rodgers is peerless at this point.
No one has. He is however the best QB in the game at the moment. You don't become the MVP and take your team to the Super Bowl without being in that conversation.
I wonder if the Chris Harris Jr jersey I've ordered will come compete with an OBJ pocket stitched in...
Not to mention the fact that the Broncos now have two players named Chris Harris....both CBs.
We're preparing for when we sell one to City.
VJ makes it official, Siemian is the starting QB.
Makes sense. He's a bit more seasoned than the other guy.
Heard Goff finally looked like a competent QB the other night. Meanwhile, the Jags continue to give Bortles chance after chance to show he's absolute dogshit.
Any updates on OBJ's injury yet?
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