NFL 2017/18

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ha_rooney said:
Is Brady’s hand injury serious?! Apparently didn’t practice yesterday.

Jags D is very quick & Brady struggles against pressure, an injured throwing hand isn’t going to help :nervous:
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Do we know what is actually wrong with his hand? The article I read said “jamming” but I have no idea what that means lol.
 
rpitroda said:
:lol: I’m sorry but to be blunt I just can’t take what you say seriously. There’s hating the Patriots (acceptable and understandable, fine), then there’s being able to make a post without bias and agenda.

Don’t thunk you’ve ever said anything positive about us except Brady is playing at a level no wrinkly QB has (even that couldn’t be said without a dig lol).

This Jags D is not heavily overrated (statistics and performance show that). And more importantly it’s not just about being a quality defence. It’s about matchup (which is the context of what my post was). For example, the Seahawks defence was much better than the Jags but schematically the Jags are better matched up against us due to their ability to play man and rush with not 4 and get pressure - two things that throw Brady’s game more than anything. That’s why the Ravens and Broncos Ds of the past have had much success against us.

The team with the No.1 passing QB has never beaten the leagues No.1 D passing in a playoff game. Nonetheless, if you’re at the pinnacle of your sport you need to be making history. Thus yes the one bit I do agree with is it’ll be embarrassing to say we lost to the Jags. But I do think that more than anything that’s just a nice sound bite, not actually supported by fact or stats.
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Fwiw I think the Patriots are the best run franchise in the NFL. I think Belichick is by far the greatest coach of all time too. I also still think Brady is a top 10 QB of all time. The only Patriots swipes I take are in jest and jealousy like the others on here. Sorry if you got the wrong impression :lol:

Disagree with you on the jags defense though. Have a look at their regular season schedule. They haven't exactly been a shut down unit. Brady and co will be absolutely fine.
 
altodevil86 said:
Fwiw I think the Patriots are the best run franchise in the NFL. I think Belichick is by far the greatest coach of all time too. I also still think Brady is a top 10 QB of all time. The only Patriots swipes I take are in jest and jealousy like the others on here. Sorry if you got the wrong impression :lol:

Disagree with you on the jags defense though. Have a look at their regular season schedule. They haven't exactly been a shut down unit. Brady and co will be absolutely fine.
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Fair enough.

Re: Jags, I still think they have been a shut down unit. You have to remember, of all the recent defences which have been elite, this Jags D is the only one which has had to copy with a truly incompetent offence for at least half of the season.

The Ravens had highly performing Flacco.
The Broncos had Osweiler/Manning who although was past his best, was still part of a functioning offence.
The Seahawks had Wilson

It's like the Texans - who had a formidable defence last year. Not recognised though, because they had a piss poor offence.

I'm not by any means saying that this Jags defence is "elite" in the sense to be grouped with those afformentioned defences. But they are on their way if they continue to improve (let's not forget how young this defence is), and they are nonetheless still a very very good unit. You can't be anything but a very very good unit when you're balancing a poor offence for half a season too, and still being no.1 in the vast majority of the important stats in the league.
 
While people are still (!) busy arguing whether or not Tom Brady is in the top echelon of QBs, and @altodevil86 "still think Brady is a top 10 QB of all time", Brady himself is busy trying to get to his 8th super bowl and winning his sixth ring, further cementing his status as THE best QB of all time. I don't really understand how people can still argue this, he's the GOAT by quite a solid margin now. Even the most avid Peyton Manning fans are starting to realize this.. Sure, there are more spectacular and talented (which does not mean better) QBs out there, but you can't really argue with 5 rings, 7 super bowls, a boatload of regular season records, "all" of the post season records etc.
 
Also, this Jags D is very much elite, and one of the very best in the past decade.

From an article on theringer.com:

"The Jaguars led the league in opposing passer rating, passing yards allowed, percentage of opposing drives that ended in a score, interception percentage, and Football Outsiders’ defensive DVOA. They were second in yards per play allowed, points allowed, turnovers, and sacks. They gave up just 3.7 adjusted net yards per passing attempt, a statistic that takes into account passing yardage, sacks, and interceptions. The gap between the Jaguars and the second-place Vikings is as big as the gap between Minnesota and 12th-place Washington. No other team has allowed under 4 adjusted net yards per attempt since the 2013 Seahawks."
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rpitroda said:
Fair enough.

Re: Jags, I still think they have been a shut down unit. You have to remember, of all the recent defences which have been elite, this Jags D is the only one which has had to copy with a truly incompetent offence for at least half of the season.

The Ravens had highly performing Flacco.
The Broncos had Osweiler/Manning who although was past his best, was still part of a functioning offence.
The Seahawks had Wilson

It's like the Texans - who had a formidable defence last year. Not recognised though, because they had a piss poor offence.

I'm not by any means saying that this Jags defence is "elite" in the sense to be grouped with those afformentioned defences. But they are on their way if they continue to improve (let's not forget how young this defence is), and they are nonetheless still a very very good unit. You can't be anything but a very very good unit when you're balancing a poor offence for half a season too, and still being no.1 in the vast majority of the important stats in the league.
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That's a fair point. It's interesting you bring up they are young, and of course inexperienced. Might result in some dumb penalties, nerves etc. I'll be cheering for a good game at least.
 
altodevil86 said:
That's a fair point. It's interesting you bring up they are young, and of course inexperienced. Might result in some dumb penalties, nerves etc. I'll be cheering for a good game at least.
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Yeah I’m hoping on that. In fact we saw that in the Steelers game. A lot of silly penalties on unnecessary roughness, taunting. That inexperience almost cost them last week.
 
rpitroda said:
Fair enough.

Re: Jags, I still think they have been a shut down unit. You have to remember, of all the recent defences which have been elite, this Jags D is the only one which has had to copy with a truly incompetent offence for at least half of the season.

The Ravens had highly performing Flacco.
The Broncos had Osweiler/Manning who although was past his best, was still part of a functioning offence.
The Seahawks had Wilson

It's like the Texans - who had a formidable defence last year. Not recognised though, because they had a piss poor offence.

I'm not by any means saying that this Jags defence is "elite" in the sense to be grouped with those afformentioned defences. But they are on their way if they continue to improve (let's not forget how young this defence is), and they are nonetheless still a very very good unit. You can't be anything but a very very good unit when you're balancing a poor offence for half a season too, and still being no.1 in the vast majority of the important stats in the league.
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Good post & I agree on the bolded part. The Texans gave us a very competitive game for the most part & forced mistakes from our offense & got plenty of pressure on Brady. Problem was their QB at the time was an embarrassment so eventually the Pats pulled away.

I think this weekend will be similar, but if Brady is injured & Bortles does what he did last week (which was very good) then an upset could actually happen. I certainly think it’ll be a close game with either side winning it something like 24-21.
 
rpitroda said:
Fair enough.

Re: Jags, I still think they have been a shut down unit. You have to remember, of all the recent defences which have been elite, this Jags D is the only one which has had to copy with a truly incompetent offence for at least half of the season.

The Ravens had highly performing Flacco.
The Broncos had Osweiler/Manning who although was past his best, was still part of a functioning offence.
The Seahawks had Wilson

It's like the Texans - who had a formidable defence last year. Not recognised though, because they had a piss poor offence.

I'm not by any means saying that this Jags defence is "elite" in the sense to be grouped with those afformentioned defences. But they are on their way if they continue to improve (let's not forget how young this defence is), and they are nonetheless still a very very good unit. You can't be anything but a very very good unit when you're balancing a poor offence for half a season too, and still being no.1 in the vast majority of the important stats in the league.
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That's the Vikings that you described.:p
 
@altodevil86

Interestingly I just did some off the hand research.

Jags are one of the top 5/10 performing in terms of DPI and DH calls (i.e. they don't give up many).

For unnecessary roughness, they're surprisingly middling the table. I'd expect them to give up a lot due to how aggressive they are, so maybe they're more disciplined than I'm giving them credit for.

In the big game though, don't know what that'll do for their mentality. You can see that the win vs the Steelers has got to their heads. But fair play to them if they can hold their temperament.
 
rpitroda said:
@altodevil86

Interestingly I just did some off the hand research.

Jags are one of the top 5/10 performing in terms of DPI and DH calls (i.e. they don't give up many).

For unnecessary roughness, they're surprisingly middling the table. I'd expect them to give up a lot due to how aggressive they are, so maybe they're more disciplined than I'm giving them credit for.

In the big game though, don't know what that'll do for their mentality. You can see that the win vs the Steelers has got to their heads. But fair play to them if they can hold their temperament.
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That's interesting, I think Marrone is a good coach. I don't know what influence Coughlin has, but it can only be positive in regards to the Patriots too. Big game and cold weaher could change things though.
 
ha_rooney said:
Good post & I agree on the bolded part. The Texans gave us a very competitive game for the most part & forced mistakes from our offense & got plenty of pressure on Brady. Problem was their QB at the time was an embarrassment so eventually the Pats pulled away.

I think this weekend will be similar, but if Brady is injured & Bortles does what he did last week (which was very good) then an upset could actually happen. I certainly think it’ll be a close game with either side winning it something like 24-21.
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Agreed. I really really don't like the match-up especially in the secondary. We struggle the most first and foremost when teams can go man to man across the board, whilst getting pressure rushing 4. Jags can do those things. Ramsey could shut down Gronk. Bouye could shut down Cooks.
 
JarleA said:
Also, this Jags D is very much elite, and one of the very best in the past decade.

From an article on theringer.com:
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All those stats are nice, but I firmly believe that the only true thing that matters on defensive statistics is PPG given up. Vikings > Jaguars on that stat.

In terms of pass defence though, yeah this Jags unit is elite.
 
rpitroda said:
Vikings lead on PPG given up. That's the only statistic that really matters on defence, so indeed I could agree with you there!

Perhaps more accurate to say the best pass defence team in the league.
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The Jags are like the Vikings last season before the injuries, they are very good at turning the ball over and are therefore good at defending the pass but the Vikings have better overall defenses, iirc the Eagles have the best rush defense and the seventeenth best pass defense, the Jags have the best pass defense and the 22nd rush defense while the Vikings are second in both.
 
JarleA said:
While people are still (!) busy arguing whether or not Tom Brady is in the top echelon of QBs, and @altodevil86 "still think Brady is a top 10 QB of all time", Brady himself is busy trying to get to his 8th super bowl and winning his sixth ring, further cementing his status as THE best QB of all time. I don't really understand how people can still argue this, he's the GOAT by quite a solid margin now. Even the most avid Peyton Manning fans are starting to realize this.. Sure, there are more spectacular and talented (which does not mean better) QBs out there, but you can't really argue with 5 rings, 7 super bowls, a boatload of regular season records, "all" of the post season records etc.
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To be honest, I don't think many would argue against Brady > Manning.

Most people who don't have Brady as GOAT tend to go for the nostalgia option such as Montana.

I do think anyone who thinks Brady is not Top 5 all-time just simply doesn't appreciate or acknowledge a lot of the things Brady does, and are just wrong.

If someone says Brady is the GOAT vs someone who says Brady is Top 3, i don't really have an issue with that. The top 3 QBs ever to play the game are majestic and to be in that group is correct, where he rightly belongs. Ranking them 1 2 3 is almost irrelevent.
 
JPRouve said:
The Jags are like the Vikings last season before the injuries, they are very good at turning the ball over and are therefore good at defending the pass but the Vikings have better overall defenses, iirc the Eagles have the best rush defense and the seventeenth best pass defense, the Jags have the best pass defense and the 22nd rush defense while the Vikings are second in both.
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This is probably why we are going to get a big load of le shifty Deon Lewis this weekend, I hope :)
 
rpitroda said:
To be honest, I don't think many would argue against Brady > Manning.

Most people who don't have Brady as GOAT tend to go for the nostalgia option such as Montana.

I do think anyone who thinks Brady is not Top 5 all-time just simply doesn't appreciate or acknowledge a lot of the things Brady does, and are just wrong.

If someone says Brady is the GOAT vs someone who says Brady is Top 3, i don't really have an issue with that. The top 3 QBs ever to play the game are majestic and to be in that group is correct, where he rightly belongs. Ranking them 1 2 3 is almost irrelevent.
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I rank QB's based on who is best at playing at the position, I don't subscribe to the GOAT/Resume/Championships. Otherwise Brady is clearly number one at this stage.
 
rpitroda said:
This is probably why we are going to get a big load of le shifty Deon Lewis this weekend, I hope :)
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Yup, I also think that the TE will play a big role, the Jags LBs are quick but they aren't big, so as long as Brady stays calm and the interior linemen can redirect Campbell from time to time, the Patriots will have a good chance to win.
 
altodevil86 said:
I rank QB's based on who is best at playing at the position, I don't subscribe to the GOAT/Resume/Championships. Otherwise Brady is clearly number one at this stage.
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Surely psychological factors (bottling, failing under pressure, "never" reaching the super bowl, losing in the super bowl etc.) counts? You can be the most skilled, most talented player ever playing the position without being the best.
 
rpitroda said:
All those stats are nice, but I firmly believe that the only true thing that matters on defensive statistics is PPG given up. Vikings > Jaguars on that stat.

In terms of pass defence though, yeah this Jags unit is elite.
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rpitroda said:
To be honest, I don't think many would argue against Brady > Manning.

Most people who don't have Brady as GOAT tend to go for the nostalgia option such as Montana.

I do think anyone who thinks Brady is not Top 5 all-time just simply doesn't appreciate or acknowledge a lot of the things Brady does, and are just wrong.

If someone says Brady is the GOAT vs someone who says Brady is Top 3, i don't really have an issue with that. The top 3 QBs ever to play the game are majestic and to be in that group is correct, where he rightly belongs. Ranking them 1 2 3 is almost irrelevent.
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I agree with both these posts. Ranking the best 1 2 3 is as difficult in football as in any other team sport (except from ice hockey).
 
JarleA said:
Surely psychological factors (bottling, failing under pressure, "never" reaching the super bowl, losing in the super bowl etc.) counts? You can be the most skilled, most talented player ever playing the position without being the best.
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I'd agree completely, that's partly why Brady is such a good quarterback.
 
rpitroda said:
All those stats are nice, but I firmly believe that the only true thing that matters on defensive statistics is PPG given up. Vikings > Jaguars on that stat.

In terms of pass defence though, yeah this Jags unit is elite.
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i read pats defence was about 15ppg since week 3 or something.

Seems crazy to think that on an average game all Brady needs is two TDs and a FG to win.
 
EdWeatherall said:
i read pats defence was about 15ppg since week 3 or something.

Seems crazy to think that on an average game all Brady needs is two TDs and a FG to win.
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Yup, they completely turned their defense after a month with 15.46PPG, though on the same period the Vikings have a record of 14.6PPG against better offenses.
 
altodevil86 said:
I'd agree completely, that's partly why Brady is such a good quarterback.
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Ah, alright, I guess i misunderstood you then. Sorry!

Yeah, I would actually say that's his best attribute. The intangible, almost undefinable skillset he has of always excelling against almost any opposition.
 
JarleA said:
Ah, alright, I guess i misunderstood you then. Sorry!

Yeah, I would actually say that's his best attribute. The intangible, almost undefinable skillset he has of always excelling against almost any opposition.
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For me it’s the WRs he has. He seems to elevate the average ones to a different level

And then when he had a truly elite WR in Randy Moss the numbers were prolific - almost 1500 yards and 23TDs
 
EdWeatherall said:
i read pats defence was about 15ppg since week 3 or something.

Seems crazy to think that on an average game all Brady needs is two TDs and a FG to win.
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Yeah but that ignores the fact that usually it’s because we have significant time of possession.

In our case our long drives stops our rather poor defence seeing the field.

On the other hand, in the case of say the Jags, they have to counter the terrible offence to give up low PPG.
 
JarleA said:
Ah, alright, I guess i misunderstood you then. Sorry!

Yeah, I would actually say that's his best attribute. The intangible, almost undefinable skillset he has of always excelling against almost any opposition.
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It’s like the old Messi vs Ronaldo debate.

Messi is clearly way more talented but Ronaldos drive and work ethic and determination allows him to be comparable in terms of performance. If Ronaldo had the work ethic of, say, Anderson, he’d probably be a nobody.

In the same way Brady isn’t the most talented but his work and intellectual ability allows him to be one of the very best at the position.

One day we will see a supremely talented QB who also has the mental attributes too. They will then be the ultimate GOAT lol.
 
rpitroda said:
Yeah but that ignores the fact that usually it’s because we have significant time of possession.

In our case our long drives stops our rather poor defence seeing the field.

On the other hand, in the case of say the Jags, they have to counter the terrible offence to give up low PPG.
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30:45 (9th) vs 31:19 (6) vs 32:29 (2) vs 32:39. (1)

Pats v Jags v Vikings v Eagles
 
rpitroda said:
It’s like the old Messi vs Ronaldo debate.

Messi is clearly way more talented but Ronaldos drive and work ethic and determination allows him to be comparable in terms of performance. If Ronaldo had the work ethic of, say, Anderson, he’d probably be a nobody.

In the same way Brady isn’t the most talented but his work and intellectual ability allows him to be one of the very best at the position.

One day we will see a supremely talented QB who also has the mental attributes too. They will then be the ultimate GOAT lol.
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For me that's Aaron Rodgers. Green smileys incoming.
 
rpitroda said:
It’s like the old Messi vs Ronaldo debate.

Messi is clearly way more talented but Ronaldos drive and work ethic and determination allows him to be comparable in terms of performance. If Ronaldo had the work ethic of, say, Anderson, he’d probably be a nobody.

In the same way Brady isn’t the most talented but his work and intellectual ability allows him to be one of the very best at the position.

One day we will see a supremely talented QB who also has the mental attributes too. They will then be the ultimate GOAT lol.
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Rodgers surely is a good shout - but if you're going on the number of rings he's way off I guess.
 
rpitroda said:
Yeah I phrased my point wrongly. It’s about what’s driving the TOP. But very interesting to see that comparison though.
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Yeh. I only wanted to check the difference and was surprised by the result so posted.

I should really have booked Monday off work to watch both games. Maybe just suck it up and see how long I last of second game
 
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