Neymar and Pogba "luxury players"? What the hell?
If Neymar isn't in your top 100 then your list is absolutely awful
Neymar vs Ronaldinho: Who was the better player?
- Thread starter Fortitude
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If Neymar isn't in your top 100 then your list is absolutely awful
Well obviously. The poll can't show how close they are in talent, it can only show the proportion of people who think Ronaldinho is better.
That's not at all controversial
Dinho, arguably the most brilliant player between the Maradona and CR7/Messi eras.
There isn't much difference between them as players ability-wise. I was a bit too old to be enthralled or that surprised by Ronaldinho's showboating freestyle stuff that a lot of teenagers loved and convinced themselves was unique to him ( a lot of it was just copying his earlier heroes and influences from Brazilian football like Djalminha and Rivellino), besides, intentionally telegraphed no look passes are just cheesy no matter who does them, but I still loved watching him play.
I prefer his playmaking characteristics to Neymar's...vision, through-balls/long passes from deeper and wider areas. Dribbling and holding the ball in the tight spaces is much the same, athleticism, workrate/involvement...don't see a big difference in any of these when looking at both during their peaks. Neymar has better forward/wide forward characteristics...he's a better, more consistent finisher, better movement and positioning around the box. Both could have adapted to the other's era quite easily, well, until Ronaldinho decided he'd had enough of the hard work. Maybe a weaker NT generation would have kept him hungrier for longer.
One thing I do disagree with and saw mentioned in the other thread about Brazil is Ronaldinho somehow being responsible for reviving a sleeping giant and setting them on their course thereafter. That's way, way too far; bordering on delusional fanboy stuff. Cruyff and the late 80s-mid90s teams had already revived the club's status, and while Barca might not have been sweeping everyone before them over the next ten years, that was because talent had not yet become so concentrated in the big clubs. throughout those years they were still near the top of European football, especially as a destination for players, including getting to two CL semi-finals in the five years before Dinho joined, and were generally very well positioned to fully exploit the globalisation of the '00s. He was a key figure in them taking that next step again and winning the CL, alongside a strong supporting cast that could be tweaked every year - by the mid-'00s, the big Spanish duo never had truly weak/average squads on paper anymore, like could sometimes happen during the time of harsh foreign player restrictions. They're always just a good managerial appointment/few astute signings away from putting it all together again. With general way football was going regarding consolidation of talent, plus the emergence of Pep, Messi, and the next great Barca generation, they were then able to have a golden era. Ronaldinho has next to no involvement in any of that, in fact, his declining dedication to the sport threatened to delay it, which is why he was sold.
I prefer his playmaking characteristics to Neymar's...vision, through-balls/long passes from deeper and wider areas. Dribbling and holding the ball in the tight spaces is much the same, athleticism, workrate/involvement...don't see a big difference in any of these when looking at both during their peaks. Neymar has better forward/wide forward characteristics...he's a better, more consistent finisher, better movement and positioning around the box. Both could have adapted to the other's era quite easily, well, until Ronaldinho decided he'd had enough of the hard work. Maybe a weaker NT generation would have kept him hungrier for longer.
One thing I do disagree with and saw mentioned in the other thread about Brazil is Ronaldinho somehow being responsible for reviving a sleeping giant and setting them on their course thereafter. That's way, way too far; bordering on delusional fanboy stuff. Cruyff and the late 80s-mid90s teams had already revived the club's status, and while Barca might not have been sweeping everyone before them over the next ten years, that was because talent had not yet become so concentrated in the big clubs. throughout those years they were still near the top of European football, especially as a destination for players, including getting to two CL semi-finals in the five years before Dinho joined, and were generally very well positioned to fully exploit the globalisation of the '00s. He was a key figure in them taking that next step again and winning the CL, alongside a strong supporting cast that could be tweaked every year - by the mid-'00s, the big Spanish duo never had truly weak/average squads on paper anymore, like could sometimes happen during the time of harsh foreign player restrictions. They're always just a good managerial appointment/few astute signings away from putting it all together again. With general way football was going regarding consolidation of talent, plus the emergence of Pep, Messi, and the next great Barca generation, they were then able to have a golden era. Ronaldinho has next to no involvement in any of that, in fact, his declining dedication to the sport threatened to delay it, which is why he was sold.
I'd really like to know what your definition of a luxury player is. It's the phrase itself that seems really dumb to me.
A luxury is something you don't need but spend a lot of money on anyway. Think Mason Mount.
So one of the best players of all time, Neymar, and one of the most naturally gifted and best midfielders of the last 30 years, Pogba, are luxury players?
This is another discussion being hindered by those in their thirties, who are being swayed by nostalgia and associative thoughts based around the time of their sexual awakening.
Take them out of the equation and I think we would have a much closer vote.
Take them out of the equation and I think we would have a much closer vote.
He broke his fecking back, you’re just proving why I’m laughing at you.
That's not true.Ronaldinho
Now imagine, if he didn't party until 4am and played the next morning..
The things he could do with the ball..Naymar couldn't..
In terms of raw talent, I don't think that there's much of a difference. Neymar is extremely gifted and one of the best dribblers of all time.
Ronaldinho just used his skills in an organic, natural way. He knew when to not overdo it and release the ball, which partly explains why he wasn't taken out as much as Neymar (that and the fact that he wasn't built like a twig).
Neymar weights 20 kilos wet, insists on showing off until a defender gets pissed and scythes him down.
It is obvious that you can't read. I said Neymar was a part of the team which fumbled the world cup. He played 5 games leading to that and yes he got injured but none of that matters. Ronaldinho won it, he didn't but squeal in your irrelevant mini victories.
This is why this thread on the cafe doesn't work. The hate Neymar gets on here is unrivaled.
There's absolutely no chance whatsoever Neymar's not in the top 100 players.
I don't even think this is true either. Ronaldinho overdid it a fair bit too.
The difference between the 2 is Ronaldinho had greater upper body strength, so he could fend off challenges a bit better than Neymar.
But it's mythologizing to say that Ronaldinho didn't have a habit of holding on to the ball too much.
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Neymar is clearly a top 100 player of all time 
I haven't sat down and started on a list (nor do I want to), but I'm pretty sure he makes the top 50 too (depending on how lenient you are with adding goalkeepers and defenders). He might also make the top 30, although I'm not sure about that.
But Ronaldinho has an actual top 10 argument and is without question top 20.
I haven't sat down and started on a list (nor do I want to), but I'm pretty sure he makes the top 50 too (depending on how lenient you are with adding goalkeepers and defenders). He might also make the top 30, although I'm not sure about that.But Ronaldinho has an actual top 10 argument and is without question top 20.
I think this is much closer than people realize.
All the things Ronaldinho did to get revered for, Neymar does similar and he gets criticized. @Fortitude had a great point with that.
I remember the rainbow flick he did over Bilbao players in the CDR final in 2015. Pretty sure he got lambasted on here for that, but if Dinho did it, they'd call him a genius for attempting that.
There's not much between the 2 in ability at all. They're close in pretty much every facet of the game.
All the things Ronaldinho did to get revered for, Neymar does similar and he gets criticized. @Fortitude had a great point with that.
I remember the rainbow flick he did over Bilbao players in the CDR final in 2015. Pretty sure he got lambasted on here for that, but if Dinho did it, they'd call him a genius for attempting that.
There's not much between the 2 in ability at all. They're close in pretty much every facet of the game.
Does he though? I don't think he has any argument whatsoever. Top 20 is debatable.Neymar is clearly a top 100 player of all time
But Ronaldinho has an actual top 10 argument and is without question top 20.
Pele, Messi, Maradona, CR7, Di Stefano, Puskas, Beckenbauer, R9, Muller, Garrincha, Best, Platini, etc.
That's 13 players there. Which of those does Ronaldinho supplant for top 10?
Neymar eclipses Ronaldinho in damn near everything, played with similar magic and did it for longer.
Ronaldinho has the nostalgia and likability thing going for him. Football fans, generally speaking, also tend to look fondly on/lean favourably towards the past. I mean I love Ronaldinho and all, but Neymar >
People in this thread saying Ronaldinho and Ronaldo at United were the last entertainers. Clueless
Ronaldinho has the nostalgia and likability thing going for him. Football fans, generally speaking, also tend to look fondly on/lean favourably towards the past. I mean I love Ronaldinho and all, but Neymar >
People in this thread saying Ronaldinho and Ronaldo at United were the last entertainers. Clueless
A luxury player is someone not very reliable but unusually capable of moments of magic. You can only really get away with them if you are already a very good team but then they can give you that extra edge. Pogba's one of the most pure examples I've seen.
I think a luxury player is one who is extremely gifted but has to have the team somewhat built around them to function because they are lacking in certain attributes. I think people also use the term for top players who come into an already settled functional team and create a need to shuffle a large part of the rest of the team to effectively accommodate them. Could look fantastic in the right set up, or quite trash in the wrong one. Pogba was a luxury player for us as he was clearly very talented but was hard to get the team to function with him in it whilst playing our other best players because he seemed to need to play in a midfield three. Veron was perhaps another example for us. Neymar I'm less sure fits the criteria.
I feel like ronaldinho has now become overrated. People watch the same 6 YouTube highlights and forget what he was like for 90 minutes.
Pogba was not a luxury player ffs. Watch him outside of united and watch France with and without him. We were fecking shit so he couldn’t be at his best like all our players.
"Luxury player" "not even top 100"
Par for the course on here regarding Neymar.
Never seen a player get hated more.
He's genuinely insanely talented, and people think he's barely top 100 and only a luxury player.
No he doesn't, not even close. Ronaldinho was absolutely magical at his peak. Brazil vs England, Barcelona vs Chelsea (Chelsea man marked him until towards the end, they gave him a sniff and it just felt inevitable he would punish them, and he did. The boy was different class.
France often played Pogba in a midfield three but not at United. That's part of why he didn't perform the same.
I cannot agree on Pogba. All he needed was to be played in a 4-3-3 and he would've been even better. And it's not like he wasn't very good for us.
By this definition, I think most footballers would be luxury players.
Masking a player's weaknesses and maximizing their strengths in order for them to be able to perform at their best is important, arguably the most important thing for any player.
Perhaps. Though maybe there are some players that take this to the extreme and have extremely good specific attributes and worse than average bad ones, and those are the luxury players. They make top teams but need extra building around than average. Or maybe it's just a nonsensical term, I'm not decided.
Pogba was a brilliant player. I'm not sure what is being discussed here but that seems to be under some contention which is silly.
Also Ronaldinho was better than Neymar but not by too much.
Also Ronaldinho was better than Neymar but not by too much.
Is that even a question?!! Ronaldinho absolutely annihilates Neymar. The kid believed his own hype and ultimately never delivered.
Ronaldinho all day long
Also, it's a silly comparison. Not even close in any way.
Neymar vs Adriano maybe..
Also, it's a silly comparison. Not even close in any way.
Neymar vs Adriano maybe..
Neymar is clearly a top 100 player of all time
But Ronaldinho has an actual top 10 argument and is without question top 20.
As regularly seen whenever these lists actually get made, Ronaldinho is typically not seen as a lock for the top 20. Sometimes he features, other times he doesn't.
For example, FourFourTwo's list from last year placed all of Messi, Pele, Maradona, C Ronaldo, Cruyff, Zidane, Beckenbauer, Di Stefano, Ronaldo, Best, Muller, Puskas, Platini, Van Basten, Zico, Eusebio, Garrincha, Charlton, Maldini and Meazza ahead of him. You would have a hard time arguing he unquestionably deserves to feature ahead of any of those players.
And their list from the previous year had him further back again, with Romario, Iniesta, Baresi, Xavi and Carlos Alberto placing ahead of him.
Edit: And that's not mentioning the players who placed behind him who others might argue for. If someone wants to make the case that someone like Lev Yashin was also better than Ronaldinho, they probably can.
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Agree. He doesn't get in ahead of them
When I see posts like this, I wonder if people on this thread actually watched Neymar play football.
I would narrowly favour Ronaldinho, but to say it's 'not close' is asinine. Neymar is/was a tremendous player.
Nah. Like I said. More on Adriano's level.
Have you seen the poll? It's even worse than the ETH one.
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That would be my exact definition as well.
Thats not exactly true I think. Not every 4-3-3 worked. At Juventus, he had Pirlo next to him who took away responsibility for buildup, peak Vidal who excelled at anything and had tremendous workrate, there was Alex Sandro on his side of the pitch and he played in front of a fantastic back-3. For France, he played with Kante (another physical specimen in terms of workrate) and often was accompanied by Matuidi or Rabiot who nominally didn't play a midfield position but tucked in to take load of Pogba.
Being a luxury player doesn't mean that the player has to be bad. It just means that you need a specific setup up and running for that player to really shine. When you provide that, the sky is the limit. If you don't provide it, stuff can get ugly pretty fast.
There are a few of them out there, no question about that. But I think, the more collective football ideas are coming to the center stage such players will find it harder and harder to reach such a status. I'd also say there are players who are luxury players for specific periods in their career. I think, the last one or two years of Ronaldo at Real and everything onwards was his transformation into such a player.
No question about that but skillsets are as individual as players are individual. Some skillsets are easier to integrate/mitigate/balance out than others. I think that is why Pogba is seen as such a player - he combined crazy physique with incredible technique. But his decision making off the ball was problematic which made him not ideal for an actual 6 role. For an 8 role, the workrate wasn't ideal and for a 10 role, he didn't have the explosiveness (in my eyes). Thats obviously all debatable but one of the main reasons I wanted him gone back then was to finally close the door to the "how can we get the best out of Pogba" room.
Ronaldinho and its not even close
Ronaldinho would be Ortega i guess.
It’s funny there is an overlap between the sort of people who say there is no flair in the game anymore and it’s all regimented and not individualist enough, and some of the same people hate Neymar. Neymar is the most entertaining player of the past 10-15 years on the ball in terms of dribbling and creativity and only Hazard and a Messi come close. If anything he’s the last jogo bonito player out there, the last link to old style Brazil flair, which should be celebrated.