Next permanent manager | Poll updated

[Gazautd18]

No, I meant; How would the structure need to be changed to accommodate Ten Hag? What specific parts of it would need to be changed.

For me it's DoF
If he can come in with the staff and players that he needs it could work.
I mean, we've got Ronaldo and Sancho and when was the last time we had a decent midfield?!

 

[Laurencio]

Absolutely this. Just looking at his mentality and his coaching ability and all signs point that he's the next top prospect when it comes to managers.

While I agree he seems terrific, isn't it a bit strange to call a 51 year old a top prospect? I mean he is in the same generation as Klopp, Guardiola and Conte. Not Nagelsmann and Amorim. Not that I don't think he'll do well, but is he a prospect when he's over 50?

For me it's DoF
If he can come in with the staff and players that he needs it could work.
I mean, we've got Ronaldo and Sancho and when was the last time we had a decent midfield?!

Well Murthough was appointed DoF just a few months ago, and whomever the new manager is will be the first to work with the new DoF structure, so we might actually have the structure in place.

 

[JPB]

Honestly, it's mind-boggling people don't see this. In addition, Poch now give us a shout to challenge for the league next season.

And if we are indeed building something football-wise at the club, Poch for 2-3 years gives us enough time to prep for Ten Hag.

Ten Hag will be at City by then. We don't have time to be fecking around. If they get him they'll win the league again for the next 10 years.

 

[Bwuk]

Ten Hag seems like he could easily peak whilst at United.

I like Poch but I’d be worried that since Spurs lost the CL final he’s been far from impressive. Has he peaked?

 

[Caesar2290]

While I agree he seems terrific, isn't it a bit strange to call a 51 year old a top prospect? I mean he is in the same generation as Klopp, Guardiola and Conte. Not Nagelsmann and Amorim. Not that I don't think he'll do well, but is he a prospect when he's over 50?

It's not like he has to run on the field does he. Despite him being 51, his first real managerial job started in 2015(2013 if you want to count his Bayern Reserve stint). So basically he has been managing for 6 years which is literally a novice or up and comming in the managerial world.

As comparison, Mourinho got the Chelsea job after being an assistant coach for 13 years and being in the management for another 4. Sir Alex got the United job after 12 years of management.

If we look at modern managers, Guardiola has been a manager since 2008(13 years) and Klopp since 2001(20 years ), even Poch has been in the business since 2012(9 years).

If we look at seniority, then Ten Hag is definitely an up and coming manager.

 

[Tom Cato]

Playing style
All three of Pochettino’s former teams, Espanyol, Southampton and Spurs, were recognised as attack-minded during his time as their manager, and also for blending quick offensive transitions with positional play – attacking spaces (below) to generate movements and passing opportunities – without losing their defensive balance. Each could switch formations depending on the circumstances unfolding or the demands of a specific opponent – both while with and without possession.

As individual matches evolved and over the course of a season, Pochettino alternated between 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 formations while attacking, and a 4-4-2 and 4-1-4-1 when out of possession. His choice was guided by the aim of subduing the strengths of his teams’ opponents and of taking advantage of any potential weaknesses.


Pochettino favours building possession from the back. From the first pass – perhaps a goal-kick – his teams seek to gain numerical advantages to work the ball forwards and to reach the attacking half in an organised set-up (below). At Spurs, Hugo Lloris, Jan Vertonghen and Toby Alderweireld coordinated, and the two Belgians were consistently ready to receive passes. Dier – whose versatility made him particularly valuable – or Harry Winks withdrew from midfield to form a triangle alongside them in an attempt to create a three-on-two overload against an opponent’s press; either would be replaced in a potential double pivot by a further midfielder, and those further forwards would work to support the lone striker and increase numbers in the final third.

His teams’ attacks are heavily influenced by their full-backs. At Southampton, Luke Shaw and Nathaniel Clyne were as important as Danny Rose and Kyle Walker were at Spurs, before Kieran Tripper and Rose or Ben Davies increasingly operated as wing-backs in front of a back three. The width they provided helped them to bypass opponents applying a high press and to benefit from the quality of those players’ deliveries, and encouraged penetrations inside opposing full-backs, another tactic of which Pochettino is fond.


Through their full-backs operating in that way, secondary forwards were encouraged to move nearer to the lone striker. Before managing PSG, Kane was the best striker Pochettino had managed and, under the Argentinian, he became increasingly versatile. His improving passing numbers and willingness to withdraw into deeper positions and link play invited quicker runners to advance beyond him, ensuring Spurs continued to offer a transitional threat, and proved effective on the occasions they had more possession or made regains in midfield. Rickie Lambert performed similarly at Southampton, where he was supported by Adam Lallana and Jay Rodriguez.

Spurs and Southampton also attacked asymmetrically (below), even if they offered identical patterns and rotations towards both the left and right. Through Son Heung-min drifting infield to combine with Alli, perhaps to operate as a secondary number 10, they had an additional runner penetrating forwards and forcing opposing defences back. Their second 10, remaining deeper, was then able to combine with other teammates; at Southampton, Lallana drifted infield to encourage Shaw or Clyne to overlap, and Rodriguez advanced to support Lambert.


So far in Paris, Pochettino has continued to favour a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 and, when required, a 4-4-2. PSG also implement his recognised attacking patterns – their width is provided by their overlapping full-backs (below), and Kylian Mbappé and Neymar attack infield. If the latter is selected on the left he moves to almost permanently occupy the inside left channel, where he seeks to receive to feet.

If Mbappé is instead positioned there, he provides more instinctive movements in behind and across the pitch, so a central midfielder advances from behind him – both Marco Verratti and Julian Draxler have relished instead moving into space in the inside left channel. The direct runs made by Mbappé also represent a particularly effective outlet during moments of transition – particularly those that follow regains in the attacking half.


If they are confronted by organised defensive blocks – a particularly common occurrence in domestic competition – his subtler movements to receive between or in behind opponents are complemented by the ball-playing abilities and vision Neymar, Draxler, Verratti and Angel di María provide. Di María consistently features from the right, where he retains his width more than do either Neymar or Mbappé; when he moves infield he does so at a later stage, and is followed by PSG’s right-back overlapping when, similarly to the asymmetrical shape seen at Spurs, they offer numerous passing options between the lines.

From deeper territory, Leandro Paredes’ passing regularly reaches, between the lines and in central territory, PSG’s attacking players. Mauro Icardi and Moise Kean have, like Neymar and Mbappé, also featured there, and provided both goals and regular movements in behind, even if the latter are performed to create increased space for those behind them.


Pressing and defending
Numerical superiorities remain a priority when Pochettino’s teams defend. The Argentinian has developed a system designed to minimise an opposing team’s time in possession – one that Spurs particularly impressed in applying. Their positional attacks, and their players’ ability to link and play in the attacking half, means that so many of them remain close to their opponents at losses of possession (above), inviting them to immediately apply their manager’s desired press and to quickly regain possession and potentially even score following a direct transition.

It is for that reason that he prefers players capable of making repeated short, intense bursts of activity, contributing to so many of those he inherited at Spurs being quickly excluded from his long-term plans. For all of his positive experiments with a back three, he continues to favour the structural stability that comes with a back four becoming narrow when they first begin to press. Should either full-back in that back four be required to advance, a defensive midfielder withdraws into the defence that shuffles across to maintain the desired back four. That flexibility is as valuable in his full-backs as it is those in defensive midfield; both are asked to cover so much ground that they require periods to recover.


If circumstances dictate that their high press is less likely to succeed, Pochettino’s teams have proved capable of defending from different territory (above) and with a mid-block. At Spurs, their striker represented the reference point for the start of a press that was assisted by their attacking midfielder, their wide forwards, and those in the double pivot at the base of midfield. Midfield boxes were also occasionally formed to provide pressure in central territory, and to discourage their opponents from playing through there.

On the occasions a high press isn’t favourable, the priority becomes closing the passing lanes and inside channels in an attempt to guide play into a wide position. When the relevant spaces are reduced with their movements, possession is instead regained through the full-back and central midfielder combining. Regardless of the height at which they are defending, when some players are instructed to focus on the ball carrier, others prioritise the opponents closest to the ball, and the remainder defend the appropriate spaces against potential passes – typically for Pochettino’s teams, working as an entire unit. Even if his teams remain more effective when aggressively pressing, their ability to adopt different structures gives them valuable variety.


In domestic competition, PSG have so far mostly favoured a high pressing approach (above). Their striker and, most commonly, number 10 take their opposing central defenders, and their wide midfielders aggressively provide support in the wide areas and work to force the ball wide, complementing the advanced positioning of their number 10 and striker. One of their two defensive midfielders also advances – to cover against access back infield and to deter opponents from playing through the centre of the pitch or from switching play – and the other supports closer to the defenders behind him by covering at the second phase of direct play. By doing so, PSG’s central defenders have the freedom, when required, to defend wider, and therefore to encourage their full-backs to advance and support their wide midfielders’ press.

There are also periods when the deeper positioned of their two central midfielders withdraws into PSG’s defensive line, or covers the full-back on his side of the pitch. The difficulty involved in him attempting to cover the other full-back heightens the importance of his midfield partner’s positioning, and with it that midfielder’s ability to defend switches of play to the areas of the pitch where they offer reduced cover. The same principle often existed at Spurs.


It is against their strongest opponents – ordinarily those they encounter in Europe – that Pochettino has preferred his team to defend with a mid-block (above). When they do so, their two wide midfielders withdraw to alongside their two defensive midfielders to form a second line of four, their number 10 will cover against access to the opposition’s deepest-lying midfielder, and Mbappé remains braced – away from his opposing central defenders and mostly free of the responsibility to press – to sprint in behind after regains are made. When those central defenders split to contribute to attempts to build around PSG’s block, Mbappé remains positioned to counter, and is often targeted by direct passes.

If an out-of-possession 4-4-2 is favoured against opponents who leave numbers behind the ball to negate PSG’s significant transitional threat, against their strongest opponents Pochettino favours defending with a 4-3-3 that can also become a 4-1-4-1 mid-block that offers increased security in front of his central defenders without sacrificing his sought-after aggressive pressure in wide territory. The player positioned between defence and midfield can cover behind a full-back or withdraw into defence on either side of the pitch, ensuring that their two central midfielders remain positioned to screen against passes in the centre, and to contribute to attempts to force possession wide. Given opponents often respond by committing more numbers forwards, Mbappé is presented with increased space to attack into.

The source for this entire post: https://www.coachesvoice.com/cv/mauricio-pochettino-tottenham-paris-saint-germain/

 

[InspiRED]

Hope I never have to hear G Nev turning ten hag into a noun. That would be the end. ‘They’ve tried a ten hag….’ There’d be no one left who didn’t go in a category… ‘a mourinho, a moyes, a Louis van gaal, a ten hag’.

 

[Gazautd18]

Well Murthough was appointed DoF just a few months ago, and whomever the new manager is will be the first to work with the new DoF structure, so we might actually have the structure in place.

Sounds promising.
What we have seen though, an this was my initial thought, is how much of a house of sand this club has been resting on.
Fergie propped us up for years and while we should have been planning for his departure we didn't.
Also we are now in the age of the super managers.
Poch/Ten Hag, whoever comes in, will have to implement his style as well as competing with these guys.
Is Ten Hag better than Poch?
He may well be?
Could he do what Poch did at Southampton and Spurs?
I don't know.
Just think the decision makers may see Poch as a better fit for us.

 

[Jim Beam]

Hope I never have to hear G Nev turning ten hag into a noun. That would be the end. ‘They’ve tried a ten hag….’ There’d be no one left who didn’t go in a category… ‘a mourinho, a moyes, a Louis van gaal, a ten hag’.

A Pochettino!!

 

[InspiRED]

A Pochettino!!

True

 

[Laurencio]

It's not like he has to run on the field does he. Despite him being 51, his first real managerial job started in 2015(2013 if you want to count his Bayern Reserve stint). So basically he has been managing for 6 years which is literally a novice or up and comming in the managerial world.

As comparison, Mourinho got the Chelsea job after being an assistant coach for 13 years and being in the management for another 4. Sir Alex got the United job after 12 years of management.

If we look at modern managers, Guardiola has been a manager since 2008(13 years) and Klopp since 2001(20 years ), even Poch has been in the business since 2012(9 years).

If we look at seniority, then Ten Hag is definitely an up and coming manager.

Good points well argued. I see how he could classify as a top prospect. Isn't it extremely rare for mangers that start out late to become great?

 

[Cloud7]

Hope I never have to hear G Nev turning ten hag into a noun. That would be the end. ‘They’ve tried a ten hag….’ There’d be no one left who didn’t go in a category… ‘a mourinho, a moyes, a Louis van gaal, a ten hag’.

You could probably have stopped there

 

[Adnan]

.

How much input do you think the data science guys have had in our signings? I think clubs like Liverpool / City are light years ahead of our data department. I've read papers released by both clubs that deal with game state, expected possession value, expected threat etc etc and they went way beyond player signings already. My impression of the United "data science" is a football manager like database where you have a list of players you can filter by attribute and watch some clips of them (e.g., find fullbacks whose xA per 90 > 0.8 and show some highlights). A lot of it is still very manual, relying on human decision making.

Likewise we made changes to the scouting network but it remains to be seen how well it worked. We did get Bruno (no top clubs interested in him when we signed him) and tried very hard to sign Haaland and Bellingham (again Dortmund were the only ones in the running there and weren't very well known when we tried to sign them), so maybe things improved.



Likewise. My assumptions before the season started were that Woody and co were kind of incompetent when they first started out but learnt a lot of lessons from the school of hard knocks and throwing all that out and getting new people in will be futile.

But given the whole Ole fiasco (new contract in the summer, not sacking him after the 5-0, not having contingency plans at all, missing out on Conte, pretending to show a backbone by not bowing to pressure and still bucking and sacking Ole in the end, not using the international break to find a caretaker manager etc. etc.)

I think they are fundamentally incompetent and I'd be more than happy if we go get outside expertise.

We have fallen behind the likes of Liverpool, City etc because mistakes were made during David Gill and Fergie's time at the club where they either ignored modernisation or were oblivious to the impact it was gonna have. Liverpool started the process of modernising the club when Gerard Houllier arrived at the club according to their correspondents in the media. And the French Manager arrived in 1998 and is credited with putting in place mechanisms which would later help Michael Edwards in the modern game. The foundations were already there at the club more than a decade earlier before Edwards arrival.

United's structure when it comes to recruitment was heavily reliant on one man and that was the manager Fergie. And from reports in the public domain, when he and his brother left, we only had one fulltime scout who had all the scouting information stored in his head because we didn't have data bases to even store such information such was the archaic way Gill and Fergie were running the club. Mick Court was at the club as a analyst but from what I've read he was severely under resourced and the guys at the training ground guru said via a podcast that Court was sent into a gun fight with a water pistol, such was how far we had fallen behind other clubs. It wasn't until Moyes saw this as a issue, that we then started to take steps to improve things both from a scouting pov and to create a data science department and revamp the youth structure at the club which was badly neglected. Murtough undertook the operation in 2014 and has brought us a long way from the almost non existent structure Fergie and Gill left to the one we have now. The link you posted from TGG the other day from 2017 gives one a indication of how far we had fallen and it's no surprise to me that Woodward walked into a disaster which was waiting to happen along with a manager (Moyes) who was selected by the previous regime.

I think our input via data analysis is still in its infancy when compared to other clubs due to those clubs being decades ahead of us in implementing foundations. But I feel it's coming along and it's a evolving process with Mick Court leading a 5 man team in the recruitment process and Dominic Jordan who will presumably create a seperate division to help the coaches when it comes to tactics in real time.

But all that is fruitless unless the head coach buys into it, and it's now important for the likes of Murtough and the recruitment team to find the correct coach who will help them align the whole process. Aligning the whole process is the most important thing and we have a diverse bunch from home and abroad who work in our recruitment department with vast knowledge of the game to implement it IMO, so I'm not worried about bringing in someone from the outside when that's already been done with the likes of Bout and de Regt.


The only thing Ajax have in their recruitment structure which is superior to ours, isn't Overmars or Vds, but rather their data science department which is led by the excellent Vosse de Boode, who is in charge of their Sports Science/data science departments, which is soon gonna grow to a 150 people from what I've read. She's done a fantastic job and again it's because they had modernised the club decades earlier. Below is a video of her explaining how things work in that regard and it's a informative video for anyone to learn from.



The contracts etc are a issue but with Ole now gone, I'm expecting Murtough to be in charge, because he didn't have the utmost authority with Solskjaer being the manager. The football department should be led by him now and player turn over, stability of squad etc is something that we expect from him at the very least.

 

[TheReligion]

The source for this entire post: https://www.coachesvoice.com/cv/mauricio-pochettino-tottenham-paris-saint-germain/

I wasn't trying to pass it off as my own

 

[Laurencio]

.
We have fallen behind the likes of Liverpool, City etc because mistakes were made during David Gill and Fergie's time at the club where they either ignored modernisation or were oblivious to the impact it was gonna have. Liverpool started the process of modernising the club when Gerard Houllier arrived at the club according to their correspondents in the media. And the French Manager arrived in 1998 and is credited with putting in place mechanisms which would later help Michael Edwards in the modern game. The foundations were already there at the club more than a decade earlier before Edwards arrival.

United's structure when it comes to recruitment was heavily reliant on one man and that was the manager Fergie. And from reports in the public domain, when he and his brother left, we only had one fulltime scout who had all the scouting information stored in his head because we didn't have data bases to even store such information such was the archaic way Gill and Fergie were running the club. Mick Court was at the club as a analyst but from what I've read he was severely under resourced and the guys at the training ground guru said via a podcast that Court was sent into a gun fight with a water pistol, such was how far we had fallen behind other clubs. It wasn't until Moyes saw this as a issue, that we then started to take steps to improve things both from a scouting pov and to create a data science department and revamp the youth structure at the club which was badly neglected. Murtough undertook the operation in 2014 and has brought us a long way from the almost non existent structure Fergie and Gill left to the one we have now. The link you posted from TGG the other day from 2017 gives one a indication of how far we had fallen and it's no surprise to me that Woodward walked into a disaster which was waiting to happen along with a manager (Moyes) who was selected by the previous regime.

I think our input via data analysis is still in its infancy when compared to other clubs due to those clubs being decades ahead of us in implementing foundations. But I feel it's coming along and it's a evolving process with Mick Court leading a 5 man team in the recruitment process and Dominic Jordan who will presumably create a seperate division to help the coaches when it comes to tactics in real time.

But all that is fruitless unless the head coach buys into it, and it's now important for the likes of Murtough and the recruitment team to find the correct coach who will help them align the whole process. Aligning the whole process is the most important thing and we have a diverse bunch from home and abroad who work in our recruitment department with vast knowledge of the game to implement it IMO, so I'm not worried about bringing in someone from the outside when that's already been done with the likes of Bout and de Regt.


The only thing Ajax have in their recruitment structure which is superior to ours, isn't Overmars or Vds, but rather their data science department which is led by the excellent Vosse de Boode, who is in charge of their Sports Science/data science departments, which is soon gonna grow to a 150 people from what I've read. She's done a fantastic job and again it's because they had modernised the club decades earlier. Below is a video of her explaining how things work in that regard and it's a informative video for anyone to learn from.



The contracts etc are a issue but with Ole now gone, I'm expecting Murtough to be in charge, because he didn't have the utmost authority with Solskjaer being the manager. The football department should be led by him now and player turn over, stability of squad etc is something that we expect from him at the very least.

Brilliant post, and spot on what our issues are. I've seen Man City hiring astrophysicist lately to help with geospatial analysis, they had a posting out for Data scientists with experience within AI not too long ago. The things they and Liverpool have done, and continue to do - especially City- is lightyears ahead of us. I really hope we start catching up soon, because I see a real possibility of City simply leapfrogging us by the time we get to where they are.

I've been impressed by Murthough, but there's so much catching up to do... it's scary once you dig deep enough and realise just how huge the gap between us and City really is.

 

[tenpoless]

It gives me comfort knowing that our next manager will be Poch, Ten Hag or Zidane. Much more comfort than the past 2 seasons.. because let's be honest. We were wrong and the sooner we move on from this silly United DNA and hiring dinosaurs, the better. We need a 'young' manager that has more or less proven their worth in another club. The good thing about these younger managers is that they most likely haven't hit their peak and much more willing in changing/adapting their ways and improve, without having to bind themselves to the 'United way' which nowadays is no more than a mumbo jumbo jargon being spouted by ex legends to support their views as pundits. Sometimes it feels like United is still using a dial-up connection when the other clubs have moved on to a way better, way more effective technologies.

I love United. But these pundits, when they start talking about "United should be like this, like that". There's no prove of those things being true whatsoever. The fact that they all failed in football management is the cherry on top. Don't listen to them. If it's up to them United board will consist of Co 92 and the manager+coaches will be full of ex-players. Can't be more United than that but surely we will get relegated that way. Trusting the process all the way to League 1.

 

[Teja]

We have fallen behind the likes of Liverpool, City etc because mistakes were made during David Gill and Fergie's time at the club where they either ignored modernisation or were oblivious to the impact it was gonna have. Liverpool started the process of modernising the club when Gerard Houllier arrived at the club according to their correspondents in the media. And the French Manager arrived in 1998 and is credited with putting in place mechanisms which would later help Michael Edwards in the modern game. The foundations were already there at the club more than a decade earlier before Edwards arrival.

United's structure when it comes to recruitment was heavily reliant on one man and that was the manager Fergie. And from reports in the public domain, when he and his brother left, we only had one fulltime scout who had all the scouting information stored in his head because we didn't have data bases to even store such information such was the archaic way Gill and Fergie were running the club. Mick Court was at the club as a analyst but from what I've read he was severely under resourced and the guys at the training ground guru said via a podcast that Court was sent into a gun fight with a water pistol, such was how far we had fallen behind other clubs. It wasn't until Moyes saw this as a issue, that we then started to take steps to improve things both from a scouting pov and to create a data science department and revamp the youth structure at the club which was badly neglected. Murtough undertook the operation in 2014 and has brought us a long way from the almost non existent structure Fergie and Gill left to the one we have now. The link you posted from TGG the other day from 2017 gives one a indication of how far we had fallen and it's no surprise to me that Woodward walked into a disaster which was waiting to happen along with a manager (Moyes) who was selected by the previous regime.

I think our input via data analysis is still in its infancy when compared to other clubs due to those clubs being decades ahead of us in implementing foundations. But I feel it's coming along and it's a evolving process with Mick Court leading a 5 man team in the recruitment process and Dominic Jordan who will presumably create a seperate division to help the coaches when it comes to tactics in real time.

I feel like you're overselling this a bit. Modern data science / stats in football is a very recent phenomenon. We had datasets that weren't very rich collected in an extremely manual way (think OPTA etc) before. The algorithms weren't very advanced - xG barely existed, let alone things like EPV, xT etc. The real data revolution happened after the machine learning boom really took off making it very easy to do video analysis, player tracking in real time. I'd say 2015-2016 -> now.

Computer databases are probably an intermediate step along the way. I'd buy that a 100 year old business has had trouble adopting those but don't think it's a big deal. It's not that much different than scouts going to games, writing up reports and faxing them over and filing them in a cabinet somewhere.

But all that is fruitless unless the head coach buys into it, and it's now important for the likes of Murtough and the recruitment team to find the correct coach who will help them align the whole process. Aligning the whole process is the most important thing and we have a diverse bunch from home and abroad who work in our recruitment department with vast knowledge of the game to implement it IMO, so I'm not worried about bringing in someone from the outside when that's already been done with the likes of Bout and de Regt.

I hope you're right, but who we sign as an interim will show how much sway let's say the progressives have over the traditionalists. I would be amazed if we had a clear pathway where we sign an interim coach that emphasizes positional play, pressing etc. and follow that up with a permanent appointment who applies the same principles. I fear we might just hear more "United way" BS.

Agree that the buy-in from coaches is needed re: recruitment, there was talk of a rift between Edwards and Rodgers at Pool and even people like Pep, Klopp etc. aren't fully sold on incorporating data into tactics for example. A huge focus within the analytics community was to move away from player recruitment to providing actionable insights to coaches on a day to day basis. One thing I've heard over and over is if a coach poses a question to the analytics team, it's no use if they have to go do 2-3 weeks worth of data analysis to answer it, at that point it almost becomes outdated.

The only thing Ajax have in their recruitment structure which is superior to ours, isn't Overmars or Vds, but rather their data science department which is led by the excellent Vosse de Boode, who is in charge of their Sports Science/data science departments, which is soon gonna grow to a 150 people from what I've read. She's done a fantastic job and again it's because they had modernised the club decades earlier. Below is a video of her explaining how things work in that regard and it's a informative video for anyone to learn from.



The contracts etc are a issue but with Ole now gone, I'm expecting Murtough to be in charge, because he didn't have the utmost authority with Solskjaer being the manager. The football department should be led by him now and player turn over, stability of squad etc is something that we expect from him at the very least.

That's super interesting, thanks. I'll check out the vid now. I didn't realize that Ajax did a lot of data science. The celeb data scientists I followed were Javi Fernandez (JaviOnData) at Barcelona (who I think just got ignored over there, so he left to start his own company) and the Liverpool / City folks.

I do hope we can poach some of their leadership to build up our data science org. I've worked in organizations where the management "gets it" and ones where the management is clueless and you have to explain extremely basic technical things where they just nod along and pretend as if they understand anything about tech and promptly ignore you. The successful companies are always ones where the management (CEO downwards) intuitively understand how to run a technical operation.

Things do flow down from the top.

 

[Adnan]

I feel like you're overselling this a bit. Modern data science / stats in football is a very recent phenomenon. We had datasets that weren't very rich collected in an extremely manual way (think OPTA etc) before. The algorithms weren't very advanced - xG barely existed, let alone things like EPV, xT etc. The real data revolution happened after the machine learning boom really took off making it very easy to do video analysis, player tracking in real time. I'd say 2015-2016 -> now.

Computer databases are probably an intermediate step along the way. I'd buy that a 100 year old business has had trouble adopting those but don't think it's a big deal. It's not that much different than scouts going to games, writing up reports and faxing them over and filing them in a cabinet somewhere.



I hope you're right, but who we sign as an interim will show how much sway let's say the progressives have over the traditionalists. I would be amazed if we had a clear pathway where we sign an interim coach that emphasizes positional play, pressing etc. and follow that up with a permanent appointment who applies the same principles. I fear we might just hear more "United way" BS.

Agree that the buy-in from coaches is needed re: recruitment, there was talk of a rift between Edwards and Rodgers at Pool and even people like Pep, Klopp etc. aren't fully sold on incorporating data into tactics for example. A huge focus within the analytics community was to move away from player recruitment to providing actionable insights to coaches on a day to day basis. One thing I've heard over and over is if a coach poses a question to the analytics team, it's no use if they have to go do 2-3 weeks worth of data analysis to answer it, at that point it almost becomes outdated.



That's super interesting, thanks. I'll check out the vid now. I didn't realize that Ajax did a lot of data science. The celeb data scientists I followed were Javi Fernandez (JaviOnData) at Barcelona (who I think just got ignored over there, so he left to start his own company) and the Liverpool / City folks.

I do hope we can poach some of their leadership to build up our data science org. I've worked in organizations where the management "gets it" and ones where the management is clueless and you have to explain extremely basic technical things where they just nod along and pretend as if they understand anything about tech and promptly ignore you. The successful companies are always ones where the management (CEO downwards) intuitively understand how to run a technical operation.

Things do flow down from the top.

I'm talking about the foundations Houllier put in place which are well documented when it comes to sports science etc. It's those foundations which every Liverpool correspondent credits Houllier with and how it's helped the likes of Edwards and Klopp in the modern game . It's a step by step process which began for Liverpool in 1998 and those foundations laid by Houllier helped the modern day Liverpool. The information in the below tweet can also be found in plenty of articles online.



I'm gonna wait and see who the interim is before drawing any conclusions tbh with you. I would even argue a club like Bayern haven't necessarily followed a linear pathway when it comes to hiring coaches, so it's not something that's as important as I once thought it was in the past. But myself personally, I hope we go for a progressive coach and I think that's who we'll get with either Poch or ten Hag, but I'd prefer it was ten Hag.

If you watch the video in my previous post. Vosse de Boode does say that the football people at Ajax do guide the analytics department when it comes to recruitment and are specific. She also says in another interview that when she was given the job at Ajax she had zero knowledge about the game but was told that the people working on the football side would break the game down for her so it would help her when it comes to applying data.

So understanding the game first and foremost is very important before attempting to apply the science. Because trying to understand the science before understanding the intricacies of the game, can lead one down the rabbit hole.

 

[Daengophile]

Pretty much. If I'm CEO at Real Madrid, Juve, PSG or City and I'm looking for a new manager, would any of those even enter the conversation? Maybe Jose has enough reputation left to be thought about for a second, but when you look at his work at us, Spurs and Roma (so far), you have to think he's finished too.

I do to think that we make it harder for our managers than we need to, I think that was especially the case with LVG where there seemed to be a big mismatch between what he wanted and what he got. But its impossible to say how much because the four managers we've chosen have been such bad picks.

I guess the one key thing that hasn't changed is the environment in which these managers have to work

.

They were all backed with money to bring in good players and given support to assemble their own coaching teams. The board aren't great, but the management and performance of the team aren't their fault. All those managers failed through fault of their own, for various reasons.

I think the one major thing that should have been done the minute Ferguson retired was to appoint a director of football

One obstacle that impeded all the managers since has been an imbalanced squad. Still is

And another has been buying players that don't really fit. Sanchez, Weinsteiger, Lukaku etc.

 

[Telsim]

We need our own Pep. We need our own Klopp. We need our own Tuchel. Ten Hag has all it takes. Instead we are looking at yet another hand-me-down. Just for once I want this club to make the sensible choice.

 

[Natener]

That's very similar to how SAF was. It was always on to the next game, the next season. No dwelling on what he has won.

 

[Caesar2290]

.
We have fallen behind the likes of Liverpool, City etc because mistakes were made during David Gill and Fergie's time at the club where they either ignored modernisation or were oblivious to the impact it was gonna have. Liverpool started the process of modernising the club when Gerard Houllier arrived at the club according to their correspondents in the media. And the French Manager arrived in 1998 and is credited with putting in place mechanisms which would later help Michael Edwards in the modern game. The foundations were already there at the club more than a decade earlier before Edwards arrival.

United's structure when it comes to recruitment was heavily reliant on one man and that was the manager Fergie. And from reports in the public domain, when he and his brother left, we only had one fulltime scout who had all the scouting information stored in his head because we didn't have data bases to even store such information such was the archaic way Gill and Fergie were running the club. Mick Court was at the club as a analyst but from what I've read he was severely under resourced and the guys at the training ground guru said via a podcast that Court was sent into a gun fight with a water pistol, such was how far we had fallen behind other clubs. It wasn't until Moyes saw this as a issue, that we then started to take steps to improve things both from a scouting pov and to create a data science department and revamp the youth structure at the club which was badly neglected. Murtough undertook the operation in 2014 and has brought us a long way from the almost non existent structure Fergie and Gill left to the one we have now. The link you posted from TGG the other day from 2017 gives one a indication of how far we had fallen and it's no surprise to me that Woodward walked into a disaster which was waiting to happen along with a manager (Moyes) who was selected by the previous regime.

I think our input via data analysis is still in its infancy when compared to other clubs due to those clubs being decades ahead of us in implementing foundations. But I feel it's coming along and it's a evolving process with Mick Court leading a 5 man team in the recruitment process and Dominic Jordan who will presumably create a seperate division to help the coaches when it comes to tactics in real time.

But all that is fruitless unless the head coach buys into it, and it's now important for the likes of Murtough and the recruitment team to find the correct coach who will help them align the whole process. Aligning the whole process is the most important thing and we have a diverse bunch from home and abroad who work in our recruitment department with vast knowledge of the game to implement it IMO, so I'm not worried about bringing in someone from the outside when that's already been done with the likes of Bout and de Regt.


The only thing Ajax have in their recruitment structure which is superior to ours, isn't Overmars or Vds, but rather their data science department which is led by the excellent Vosse de Boode, who is in charge of their Sports Science/data science departments, which is soon gonna grow to a 150 people from what I've read. She's done a fantastic job and again it's because they had modernised the club decades earlier. Below is a video of her explaining how things work in that regard and it's a informative video for anyone to learn from.



The contracts etc are a issue but with Ole now gone, I'm expecting Murtough to be in charge, because he didn't have the utmost authority with Solskjaer being the manager. The football department should be led by him now and player turn over, stability of squad etc is something that we expect from him at the very least.

@Adnan mate, every time I read one of your posts I learn something new. Thanks to you I finally understand what Mortough is doing and what Fletcher's role entails. Is there any way you could start a series of threads about these subjects so we can learn more about the organizational structure of our club?

 

[mark clatternburg]

Im flabbergasted by the love for Poch. Surely a serial bottler?

 

[roonster09]

Im flabbergasted by the love for Poch. Surely a serial bottler?

He will win league by Feb.

 

[NoPace]

I’m now uncompromising in my belief that until we employ a dominating style of play I’m not on board with any manager.

Seems like that's Ten Hag or Potter from the conceivable choices.

 

[Nickelodeon]

With Ajax finishing top and PSG finishing second in their respective groups, there is one way to settle this. The Manchester United manager trophy match in the CL Ro16. Let's do this guys.

 

[Cassidy]

He will win league by Feb.

Ole would probably win that league and he is a serial bottler himself

 

[giggs-beckham]

If we're guaranteed Ten Hag at the end of the season, honestly it'd be worth it to wai. Can't allow anymore half-measures.

Yea agreed

 

[Cassidy]

Seems like that's Ten Hag or Potter from the conceivable choices.

Potter….

 

[roonster09]

Ole would probably win that league and he is a serial bottler himself

Maybe he should send his cv to Leonardo.

 

[Bestietom]

I would be happy with Interim manager until the summer as long as we get the right manager then.

 

[Keyser]

Amazes me that people are judging Poch on last night but lauding Tuchel who had similar issues, it's the club not the man

Now their game is over I reckon this'll either happen by the end of the week or we're getting an interim

 

[Bestietom]

Amazes me that people are judging Poch on last night but lauding Tuchel who had similar issues, it's the club not the man

Now their game is over I reckon this'll either happen by the end of the week or we're getting an interim

Really hope your right. If we don't get Poch this week, please have an interim ready.

 

[Ixion]

This is the right attitude. Some acted like that unbeaten away run was something to shout about but it's irrelevant if you don't win anything.

 

[Ralph1386]

This is the right attitude. Some acted like that unbeaten away run was something to shout about but it's irrelevant if you don't win anything.

Exactly, we’ve got nothing to show for this away run.

 

[Greck]

Ole would probably win that league and he is a serial bottler himself

Ole'll win nothing. Guy has Ronaldo, Sancho, Pogba and multiple best players and prospects of several international teams and is getting embarrassed by Watford. He'd have PSG on a midtable dive. We're closer in star power to PSG than many clubs in the PL are to us.

 

[AndyMUFC86]

He turned a PL flop into the top scorer in the CL, crazy what quality coaching can do innit

Or haller wasn’t good enough for the prem and he’s now doing it against poorer opponents.

 

[InspiRED]

.
We have fallen behind the likes of Liverpool, City etc because mistakes were made during David Gill and Fergie's time at the club where they either ignored modernisation or were oblivious to the impact it was gonna have. Liverpool started the process of modernising the club when Gerard Houllier arrived at the club according to their correspondents in the media. And the French Manager arrived in 1998 and is credited with putting in place mechanisms which would later help Michael Edwards in the modern game. The foundations were already there at the club more than a decade earlier before Edwards arrival.

United's structure when it comes to recruitment was heavily reliant on one man and that was the manager Fergie. And from reports in the public domain, when he and his brother left, we only had one fulltime scout who had all the scouting information stored in his head because we didn't have data bases to even store such information such was the archaic way Gill and Fergie were running the club. Mick Court was at the club as a analyst but from what I've read he was severely under resourced and the guys at the training ground guru said via a podcast that Court was sent into a gun fight with a water pistol, such was how far we had fallen behind other clubs. It wasn't until Moyes saw this as a issue, that we then started to take steps to improve things both from a scouting pov and to create a data science department and revamp the youth structure at the club which was badly neglected. Murtough undertook the operation in 2014 and has brought us a long way from the almost non existent structure Fergie and Gill left to the one we have now. The link you posted from TGG the other day from 2017 gives one a indication of how far we had fallen and it's no surprise to me that Woodward walked into a disaster which was waiting to happen along with a manager (Moyes) who was selected by the previous regime.

I think our input via data analysis is still in its infancy when compared to other clubs due to those clubs being decades ahead of us in implementing foundations. But I feel it's coming along and it's a evolving process with Mick Court leading a 5 man team in the recruitment process and Dominic Jordan who will presumably create a seperate division to help the coaches when it comes to tactics in real time.

But all that is fruitless unless the head coach buys into it, and it's now important for the likes of Murtough and the recruitment team to find the correct coach who will help them align the whole process. Aligning the whole process is the most important thing and we have a diverse bunch from home and abroad who work in our recruitment department with vast knowledge of the game to implement it IMO, so I'm not worried about bringing in someone from the outside when that's already been done with the likes of Bout and de Regt.


The only thing Ajax have in their recruitment structure which is superior to ours, isn't Overmars or Vds, but rather their data science department which is led by the excellent Vosse de Boode, who is in charge of their Sports Science/data science departments, which is soon gonna grow to a 150 people from what I've read. She's done a fantastic job and again it's because they had modernised the club decades earlier. Below is a video of her explaining how things work in that regard and it's a informative video for anyone to learn from.



The contracts etc are a issue but with Ole now gone, I'm expecting Murtough to be in charge, because he didn't have the utmost authority with Solskjaer being the manager. The football department should be led by him now and player turn over, stability of squad etc is something that we expect from him at the very least.

Informative post, thanks.

 

[Jacob]

The fact that 52% voted for Ten Hag says a lot. It's the obvious choice and I hope the Board sees it the same way.

 

[Rolaholic]

Or haller wasn’t good enough for the prem and he’s now doing it against poorer opponents.

Spin it however you want it but scoring 9 goals through 5 matches in the Champions League is impressive no matter what and getting that out of a player is quality coaching.

He also had Tadic absolutely bossing it against the elite when they reached the semis 2/3 seasons ago