Next Draft - Ideas and Discussions

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Beckenbauer 170
Baresi 150
Figueroa 130
Nesta 115
Scirea 115
Moore 110
Kohler 100
Passarella 90
Ferdinand 80
Cannavaro 80
Forster 75
Nasazzi 75
McGrath 75
Santamaria 70
Stam 70

If you compare Santamaria with the other CBs I don't think he's that mispriced.

@Enigma_87

Pretty much most non fanboi sites have him rated highly. I'd have to side with Enigma here, though I'd still move Passarella to Tier 1. He should be rated ahead of McGrath, Rio and Cannavaro definitely. Too bad there is not more material on him.

Tier 1:
Passarella, Figueroa, Baresi, Scirea, Beckenbauer, Moore

Tier 2:
Krol, Nesta, Santamaria, Kohler, Sammer.

Rest in Tier 3

 

[Enigma_87]

Beckenbauer 170
Baresi 150
Figueroa 130
Nesta 115
Scirea 115
Moore 110
Kohler 100
Passarella 90
Ferdinand 80
Cannavaro 80
Forster 75
Nasazzi 75
McGrath 75
Santamaria 70
Stam 70

If you compare Santamaria with the other CBs I don't think he's that mispriced.

@Enigma_87

I'd probably make slight changes mate if we rate them in perspective.

For example Baresi is indeed the best pure CB/sweeper in the game so 150 seems fair. However the gap between him and Moore/Scirea is way too big. Both Moore and Scirea should be closer to Figueroa, who should be closer with 5 or 10m to Baresi IMO.

Kohler also should move to 115 alongside Nesta and Passarella should also move 10m or so. Santamaria should be above 100m closer to the Nesta/Kohler tier.

Nasazzi IMO is overrated as it is if he's above Santamaria. I don't believe there is much between Kohler/Nesta/Santamaria level - yes he should be below both but 45m is way too much IMO.

 

[Enigma_87]

Pretty much most non fanboi sites have him rated highly. I'd have to side with Enigma here, though I'd still move Passarella to Tier 1. He should be rated ahead of McGrath, Rio and Cannavaro definitely. Too bad there is not more material on him.

Tier 1:
Passarella, Figueroa, Baresi, Scirea, Beckenbauer, Moore

Tier 2:
Krol, Nesta, Santamaria, Kohler, Sammer.

Rest in Tier 3

Aye that's pretty much spot on. I'd rate Passarella at Tier 2 because of players like Sammer, Nesta and Kohler there whose club careers eclipsed what he did at River and Inter, IMO. He was closer to their tier, than to Scirea, Beckenbauer, Baresi and Figueroa who received many individual plaudits on top of in Baresi and Scirea's case winning everything under the sun whilst being one of the top dogs in their teams.

You can debate on Moore, but his pure ability has to shoot him in tier 1.

 

[Pythagoras]

Pretty much most non fanboi sites have him rated highly. I'd have to side with Enigma here, though I'd still move Passarella to Tier 1. He should be rated ahead of McGrath, Rio and Cannavaro definitely. Too bad there is not more material on him.

Tier 1:
Passarella, Figueroa, Baresi, Scirea, Beckenbauer, Moore

Tier 2:
Krol, Nesta, Santamaria, Kohler, Sammer.

Rest in Tier 3

I don't think Passarella is defensively in the same tier as (Figueroa, Baresi, Scirea, Beckenbauer, Moore).

I like Nesta and Kohler in tier two. The two best DEFENDERS in that tier. I would actually put Thuram and Giuseppe Bergomi in there too. They did play at right back at various stages in their career, but they are all-time defenders in the end.

You can debate on Moore, but his pure ability has to shoot him in tier 1.

Yes, his reading of game and passing are top tier all-time.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Nesta is easily tier 1....

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Aye that's pretty much spot on. I'd rate Passarella at Tier 2 because of players like Sammer, Nesta and Kohler there whose club careers eclipsed what he did at River and Inter, IMO. He was closer to their tier, than to Scirea, Beckenbauer, Baresi and Figueroa who received many individual plaudits on top of in Baresi and Scirea's case winning everything under the sun whilst being one of the top dogs in their teams.

You can debate on Moore, but his pure ability has to shoot him in tier 1.

His time at Italy was when he was just past his prime. Inter was him aged 34 or something and was still good. I don't count his lack of trophies against him.

I don't think Passarella is defensively in the same tier as (Figueroa, Baresi, Scirea, Beckenbauer, Moore).

There was nothing defensively lacking about him. Good reading, leadership, crunching tackles, great in air... He had everything. If we want to nitpick, his tendency for rash tackles can be counted against him... But it was not really out of the norm. Made it up with his goal scoring.

 

[Enigma_87]

Yes, his reading of game and passing are top tier all-time.

Aye. The original Rolls Royce defender.

His time at Italy was when he was just past his prime. Inter was him aged 34 or something and was still good. I don't count his lack of trophies against him.

Fiorentina at the time weren't worse team than Inter tho. The year before he moved they challenged Juve for the title and finished just 1 point off the top. I really don't think Passarella was better defender than Kohler or Nesta.

He didn't dominate the SA defensive charts either the same way Figueroa was receiving many individual awards and plaudits.

Great defender, but not the top tier for me. Not much separating him and Sammer IMO.

Nesta is easily tier 1....

His injuries didn't help his case, tho. I'm not sure when you'd have his greatest performances and actual peak. He doesn't have the height of the performance you'd associate the likes of Figueroa against Muller, Moore's WC, Baresi against Romario and van Basten, etc.

He was consistently the best CB in the league after the turn of the century but not Baresi level for me...

 

[Šjor Bepo]

His injuries didn't help his case, tho. I'm not sure when you'd have his greatest performances and actual peak. He doesn't have the height of the performance you'd associate the likes of Figueroa against Muller, Moore's WC, Baresi against Romario and van Basten, etc.

He was consistently the best CB in the league after the turn of the century but not Baresi level for me...

Tbf nobody is probably on Baresi level when it comes to actual defending but he is up there with anyone else, not best CB in the league but through most of his career he was the best CB in the world and that was in period when you had a lot of great defenders and not no when at best you have Godin +1...
About the performances, yeah there isnt some that stand out so much but i reckon thats because we watched him much more then the guys before, you didnt have a chance to watch Figueroa as much so you remembered the great performances while with Nesta you just take them for granted.
Without to much thinking i think he has some great games against Messi when he was almost post peak, similar to Baresi vs Romario in that aspect and i remember him schoolin Adriano on regular basis when he was at his peak and was regarded as unstoppable force.
But Nesta was that type of defender that he didnt even had to take the ball nor touch the ball to destroy opponents attacks, his positioning and reading of the game was second to none so majority of time he would stop potential passes going towards his area by just being positinioned correctly so even that style explains lack of individual battles as he didnt have as many as for example Kohler or Stam.

 

[harms]

For me it's
T0 Beckenbauer (not the best defender, actually, but at the same time the best non-attacking player of all-time)
T0,5 Baresi
T1 Figueroa, Moore, Scirea
T2 Nesta, Kohler, Cannavaro, Passarella etc., with Nesta being the closest one to T1

 

[harms]

His injuries didn't help his case, tho. I'm not sure when you'd have his greatest performances and actual peak. He doesn't have the height of the performance you'd associate the likes of Figueroa against Muller, Moore's WC, Baresi against Romario and van Basten, etc.

He was consistently the best CB in the league after the turn of the century but not Baresi level for me...

Such a shame that he missed that '06 World Cup, although it's hard to imagine that Italian defence being even better. I'm quite sure that Cannavaro wouldn't have been as impressive individually with Nesta around here though (but they'd probably be better as a unit).

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

T2 Nesta, Kohler, Cannavaro, Passarella etc., with Nesta being the closest one to T1

Would you put Godin in tier 2? Rio?

 

[harms]

Would you put Godin in tier 2? Rio?

Probably should've went with those half tiers until the end,
T1,5 Nesta, Kohler, Cannavaro, Passarella, Maldini, Thuram, Sammer (arguably a few others)
T2 Bergomi, Rio, Förster, Godin, Desailly, Chumpitaz, Vidić, Stam... (not all are equally good, but roughly in the same tier)

 

[Enigma_87]

Probably should've went with those half tiers until the end,
T1,5 Nesta, Kohler, Cannavaro, Passarella, Maldini, Thuram, Sammer (arguably a few others)
T2 Bergomi, Rio, Förster, Godin, Desailly, Chumpitaz, Vidić, Stam... (not all are equally good, but roughly in the same tier)

Yeah, that's pretty much spot on, I agree with all that with minor changes.

I'd have
T0 Beckenbauer (he's not the best pure defender - but as an overall effect on the game and on the pitch)
T0,5 Baresi
T1 Figueroa, Moore, Scirea
T1,5 Nesta, Kohler, Passarella, Maldini, Thuram, Sammer, Santamaria, Krol
T2 Bergomi, Rio, Forster, Godin, Desailly, Chumpitaz, Cannavaro, Tresor, Shesternyov
T2.5 Vidic, Stam, Campbell, Ruggeri, McGrath, Blanc, Lucio, Vierchowod, Nasazzi, Vasovic, Gentile, Ferrara, Carvalho
T3 Adams, Perfumo, Koeman, Hierro, Schulz, Picchi, Puyol, Olsen, Wright..

and the likes.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

T2 Bergomi, Rio, Forster, Godin, Desailly, Chumpitaz, Cannavaro, Tresor, Shesternyov
T2.5 Vidic, Stam, Campbell, Ruggeri, McGrath, Blanc, Lucio, Vierchowod, Nasazzi, Vasovic, Gentile, Ferrara, Carvalho
T3 Adams, Perfumo, Koeman, Hierro, Schulz, Picchi, Puyol, Olsen, Wright..

I reckon McGrath & Carvalho are good in T2. Injuries aside, McGrath will be rated higher than Rio as a ball playing CB. Versatile to play as DM too. Carvalho is another player very underrated in drafts. Possibly because of his partner, But he was stellar defender. Maybe physically not as intimidating as most PL defenders in that era, but absolutely I rated him ahead of Terry in that partnership.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

look what you started @Edgar Allan Pillow

 

[idmanager]

Has anyone watched/lived the 1993-94 Serie A season?
Trying to find a Milan or the league season review.
The top of the table looks fun and quite depressing at the same time.

Pos Team Pld W D L GF GA GD Pts
1 Milan (C) 34 19 12 3 36 15 +21 50
2 Juventus 34 17 13 4 58 25 +33 47
3 Sampdoria 34 18 8 8 64 39 +25 44
4 Lazio 34 17 10 7 55 40 +15 44
5 Parma 34 17 7 10 50 35 +15 41
6 Napoli 34 12 12 10 41 35 +6 36

 

[harms]

Has anyone watched/lived the 1993-94 Serie A season?
Trying to find a Milan or the league season review.
The top of the table looks fun and quite depressing at the same time.

I'll try to download a season review — I've had it but deleted it since.

 

[idmanager]

I'll try to download a season review — I've had it but deleted it since.

Thanks mate. Look forward to it if you find it.

 

[P-Nut]

Has anyone watched/lived the 1993-94 Serie A season?
Trying to find a Milan or the league season review.
The top of the table looks fun and quite depressing at the same time.

Pos Team Pld W D L GF GA GD Pts
1 Milan (C) 34 19 12 3 36 15 +21 50
2 Juventus 34 17 13 4 58 25 +33 47
3 Sampdoria 34 18 8 8 64 39 +25 44
4 Lazio 34 17 10 7 55 40 +15 44
5 Parma 34 17 7 10 50 35 +15 41
6 Napoli 34 12 12 10 41 35 +6 36

Yeah that looks unreal, I'd give that a watch if you manage to find it @harms

 

[harms]

Thanks mate. Look forward to it if you find it.

Yeah that looks unreal, I'd give that a watch if you manage to find it @harms

I don't need to find it, I need to wait for a seeder to come back
Serie A review will have to wait, but here's a part of the series about AC Milan, this one is from 1992 to 1994; 1993/94 starts from 18 minute

Spoiler

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7dkp8ytht...ilan. DVD8 - Invincibili E Immortali.avi?dl=0

 

[Gio]

BTW, why was Santamaria rated so low in the last draft at 70m? He is always one of the ourstanding stoppers/sweepers in the game and along with Figueroa, Passarella and now Godin one of the best SA center backs of all time.

Yeah. We were trying to get some sort of alignment across the common perception of the best South American defenders of all time. Universally Figueroa is regarded the highest - he ticks all the boxes really in terms of quality of performance - then Passarella/Nasazzi/Chumpitaz/Santamaria/Da Guia/Godin. I think each of Nasazzi, Santamaria and Da Guia suffer from playing in a different era when they were more exposed and probably lack the footage to back up their quality in the way that the post-70s boys do. Assuming all eras are equal then they should each be £100m+ in the valuation, but in valuing based on vote worthiness, they take a small hit. To me those 7 CBs are clearly the best and there's a gap to the next tier. And delighted to see you've put Godin in there. We've got a modern tendency not to put any of the more recent defenders into these types of discussions, but Godin's CV over the last decade is sensational.

 

[Enigma_87]

I reckon McGrath & Carvalho are good in T2. Injuries aside, McGrath will be rated higher than Rio as a ball playing CB. Versatile to play as DM too. Carvalho is another player very underrated in drafts. Possibly because of his partner, But he was stellar defender. Maybe physically not as intimidating as most PL defenders in that era, but absolutely I rated him ahead of Terry in that partnership.

I didn't want to overrate Carvalho but generally I agree with you. IMO Carvalho's credentials should be really high. Proven himself at Porto, Portugal and Chelsea at his peak. Very complete defender who formed alongside the cnut one - one of the best modern day defensive units. Even when Jose took him to Real he was a good addition for the first year as he was calm and composed at the back and great influence to others beside him, which helped Jose build a solid unit at the back.

As for McGrath I obviously rate him high, but his injuries prevented him IMO to reach the T2, with some awesome individual performances but lacks the consistency of Bergomi, Godin, Shesternyov, Tresor, etc..

Yeah. We were trying to get some sort of alignment across the common perception of the best South American defenders of all time. Universally Figueroa is regarded the highest - he ticks all the boxes really in terms of quality of performance - then Passarella/Nasazzi/Chumpitaz/Santamaria/Da Guia/Godin. I think each of Nasazzi, Santamaria and Da Guia suffer from playing in a different era when they were more exposed and probably lack the footage to back up their quality in the way that the post-70s boys do. Assuming all eras are equal then they should each be £100m+ in the valuation, but in valuing based on vote worthiness, they take a small hit. To me those 7 CBs are clearly the best and there's a gap to the next tier. And delighted to see you've put Godin in there. We've got a modern tendency not to put any of the more recent defenders into these types of discussions, but Godin's CV over the last decade is sensational.

Yup, agree with all that only bar Da Guia. To me he's vastly overrated and not just going by that WC performance. Most of his credentials are only anecdotes and at the time Uruguayan, Argie league and football in general were better than Brazil's. The Brazilian league was fragmented at the time and the best SA players didn't play there(unlike the 50's and 60's). His All Star Team accolade in 38' was bit of a joke having watched highlights of the games and he really didn't deserve that award IMO. Brazil's defensive line generally was all over the place and they relied on their attack to bail them out most of the games. He conceded 2 important penalties and most of the goals could've been prevented that came centrally if he had a better positioning.

Santamaria is different case - there is a lot of video evidence during that time - most of Real's CL games are up and he dominated in SA as well, being part of Nacional team that won the title 5 times in 8 years during 50-57. A good testimony for his quality and that he was missed was that they didn't win the title in the next 5-6 years after he left.

His peak IMO was 55-62 when he was 25/26 up until 32/33 and the latter 2-3 seasons at Real he began to slow down which was natural when you consider the formation Real played at the time and football in general which was only trying to transition to 4 man backline at the time, employed initially by Brazil.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

As for McGrath I obviously rate him high, but his injuries prevented him IMO to reach the T2, with some awesome individual performances but lacks the consistency of Bergomi, Godin, Shesternyov, Tresor, etc..

Would be nice to get a clip of this...

Giants Stadium, East Rutherford, NJ, June 18, 1994: Against all known logic, Ireland are leading World Cup favourites Italy through an early Ray Houghton goal. With minutes remaining, the Italians are mounting the latest in a never ceasing wave of attacks when Juventus striker Roberto Baggio, the reigning world and European Footballer of the Year, lines up a shot on the edge of the penalty area. As Baggio draws back his right foot, Paul McGrath materialises as if from nowhere to flick the ball off his toe with a perfectly timed sliding tackle. The ball breaks to Roberto Donadoni, who whips in a wicked cross towards Baggio, who is foiled a second time as McGrath soars above him to head clear the danger, landing on his hands and knees. Giuseppe Signori latches on to the loose ball and unleashes a powerful shot which McGrath, still on all fours, manages to block with the only available part of his body — his face. "Paul McGrath is one of the all-time greats," Republic of Ireland manager Jack Charlton is moved to say afterwards. "Someone to compare with Bobby Moore..."

It'd be hard to apply same standards to likes who you named above as McGrath both at club and country were switched constantly between CB and DM. It just shows how good he was to be considered prime at both. The only reason he is not a tier 1.5 was due to his injuries. Imo, he fits in perfectly at Tier 2.

Imagine Mcgrath and Maradona in same team! ...

Yes, I would have gone abroad. I got an enquiry from Napoli when Maradona played for them and they were Italy’s best team in the late ’80s. I was holidaying near Naples on the coast in Sorrento when a delegation of Napoli officials came to see me at my hotel. I was amazed that they knew I was there. We had a big chat, but nothing came of it. Imagine if that had come off... I was very tempted, but maybe with my situation it was best I didn’t go. There wasn’t really a drinking culture in Italian football, so maybe I would have started one.

Perhaps @Pat_Mustard or @Gio can opine.

 

[harms]

Would be nice to get a clip of this...



It'd be hard to apply same standards to likes who you named above as McGrath both at club and country were switched constantly between CB and DM. It just shows how good he was to be considered prime at both. The only reason he is not a tier 1.5 was due to his injuries. Imo, he fits in perfectly at Tier 2.

Imagine Mcgrath and Maradona in same team! ...


Perhaps @Pat_Mustard or @Gio can opine.

 

[harms]

Thanks mate. Look forward to it if you find it.

Yeah that looks unreal, I'd give that a watch if you manage to find it @harms

And the season review

Spoiler

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v5n1skn0z12z6l6/Seria A 1993-94.avi?dl=0

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Thanks. Awesome. 1:50 for the incident in article.

 

[idmanager]

And the season review

Spoiler

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v5n1skn0z12z6l6/Seria A 1993-94.avi?dl=0

Thanks mate. Capello looks dope

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Yup, agree with all that only bar Da Guia. To me he's vastly overrated and not just going by that WC performance. Most of his credentials are only anecdotes and at the time Uruguayan, Argie league and football in general were better than Brazil's.

The Brazilian league was fragmented at the time and the best SA players didn't play there(unlike the 50's and 60's). His All Star Team accolade in 38' was bit of a joke having watched highlights of the games and he really didn't deserve that award IMO. Brazil's defensive line generally was all over the place and they relied on their attack to bail them out most of the games. He conceded 2 important penalties and most of the goals could've been prevented that came centrally if he had a better positioning.

This is why Da Guia was considered a legend at the time. Because he went to Uruguay and won a championship with Nacional in the Uruguay league. Then went to Boca and won an Argentine championship with Boca Juniors. He was considered a legend in not just Brazil but all of South America. He was praised by fans of both Nacional and Boca for a long time. Even Central Americans I know remember his name. It still seems you are relying too much on just 1938 which I don't think you can do as we don't have complete matches. Additionally it wasn't perceived by the Brazilians the way the World Cup is now. In 1938 it was seen as more a fun exhibition tournament in a foreign country rather than a serious footballing trophy that must be competed for at all costs. So I'm not sure it should be taken as seriously as the post-WWII to present era Brazilian NT. Domingos was also the Player of the Tournament in the South American championship in 1945 seven years later so I think his accolades across his career are better than you are really acknowledging. He was pretty much the first prototype of a ball playing defender and I think all ball playing defenders sometimes get criticism for defending at times.

 

[P-Nut]

And the season review

Spoiler

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v5n1skn0z12z6l6/Seria A 1993-94.avi?dl=0

Cheers mate

 

[Šjor Bepo]

only a matter of time for a thread about All-Time Team Around Paulo Wanchope

 

[Physiocrat]

only a matter of time for a thread about All-Time Team Around Paulo Wanchope

Do it

 

[P-Nut]

Just dropping this here for Himannv

Just a heads up that I might not be very available over the next few weeks or so. My first child looks like he might be born a few weeks ahead of schedule so that throws most plans I have out the window. Just keeping you guys in the loop as well. I'll try to check in as much as I can.

Might want to recruit an AM? Would be a shame for your drafting to go to waste.

I'd be happy for someone to play that role if anyone is up for it.

 

[Moby]

What's next?

 

[Šjor Bepo]

to make the use of this All Time Team topics around xy we could take those 4(Platini, Cruyff, Di Stefano, Pirlo) players and give them to 4 different managers, they have to build around them but every player from the thread is blocked. Three of them are near the same quality so for Pirlo we would need to give one or two picks from the thread or we block them all but we also block every teammate for the other three.

Only downside is that there would be a game of Pirlo vs Pirlo but feck it, if we can imagine Messi playing against Tigana we can do the same with duplicates

 

[idmanager]

How about a jersey chain draft.

You can start with any Jersey number you want to start your chain.

The player must have played at least 3 continuous seasons with that jersey number at club level.

After that, you can move any direction to take your chain.

After 11 chain moves to 1 and vice versa

Example:

10. Maradona 11. Giggs 1. De Gea

Or

10. Pele 9. Lukaku 8. Mata

Reinforcements, if you want a number 6, you drop your current number 6

 

[2mufc0]

We're doing the modern draft next.

 

[harms]

Only downside is that there would be a game of Pirlo vs Pirlo but feck it, if we can imagine Messi playing against Tigana we can do the same with duplicates

Looking forward to the arguments like "my Pirlo is much better than yours".

 

[harms]

You can start with any Jersey number you want to start your chain.

The player must have played at least 3 continuous seasons with that jersey number at club level.

After that, you can move any direction to take your chain.

After 11 chain moves to 1 and vice versa

This means that numbers higher than 11 won't participate?

 

[idmanager]

This means that numbers higher than 11 won't participate?

Think most players would have had 1 to 11 at some point in their career.
Take Roy Keane, was 6 at Forest and 16 for us.

The list of players blocked by it shouldn't be too big IMO

 

[Moby]

Here's a draft I ran on another forum.

The Road Trip Draft

Draft Format : Snake
No. of Rounds : 12
Time Deadline for picking : 8 hours

Draft Theme : A variation on the Chain Draft format where geography plays a big role. Your first pick is free to pick from every player that has ever played the sport professionally. Following that, every pick must belong to a nation (see below) that shares a CURRENT political border with the nation of his previous pick.

Definition of nationality : If a player has represented only one nation professionally which still exists in the same form as it did when he represented it, that would qualify as his nationality. For all other cases:

The city of birth will be considered in cases where a player played for more than one countries or played for a country that doesn't exist anymore e.g. if a player played for both Italy and Argentina but he was born in a city that lies in current day Argentine, he qualifies for Argentina and not both. Similarly if a player played for USSR and he was born in a city lying in current day Ukraine, he only qualifies for Ukraine and not every nation that was once under the name of USSR. Please do not initiate any political debates.

Definition of Political Borders : (This needs to be discussed)
1. Political Borders as of 28 August 2016 will be considered eligible.
2. Countries that belong to the same continent and are separated by a water body will be considered eligible as neighbours to the nation if you can draw a straight line between the two nations with only water and no land obstructing the line.
3. Countries that belong to different continents but share a land border will NOT be eligible neighbours. e.g. You can NOT move from a European Country to an Asian country.
Any dispute regarding this will be presented to the moderator BEFORE the pick is made and his verdict will be final.
4. In case of an overseas territory, you will still be only able to use links from the home nation as stated above.

Draft Restrictions/Allowances:
1. You can only pick a maximum of 2 players from a nation using the above definition of which nation a player represents.
2. You will be granted one 'FREE INTERCONTINENTAL TRAVEL' or a 'FIT' pass to jump from one continent to another.
2a. You do NEED to use this to jump continents via nations that share land borders.
2b. You do NOT need to use this to jump to a country not sharing a land border within the same continent.
2c. You can only use it once for the duration of the draft.