NBA 2022-2023

WI_Red said:
Agree to strongly, strongly, disagree. No judging, but did you see MJ play in real time? I was in my teens during his threepeat/baseball/threepeat years and there has never been, and will likely never be, an athlete that dominant over that period of time. He would have like won 8 straight titles if not for the break. He was an all time scorer and defender. He never lost a finals series. Ever.

Brady is an all time great QB, maybe the best ever, but he is not in my mind the greatest ever. Honestly, it’s LT or Brown for me. LT was the greatest defender I have ever seen and could single handedly shut down opposing offenses. Brown would likely own every NFL rushing record had he not retired at the peak of his career (29 and had won the MVP).
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I was a kid in Chicago at the time! I met the guy!

I can understand your perspective since you seem to focus a lot more on peak versus longevity - but I think you can't universally apply the same criteria across both sports. In the NBA, where success is driven by your best player by a much greater extent than the NFL, I'd lean towards peak over longevity and that's why I fully agree that MJ is the GOAT over Lebron. But especially given how physically demanding the NFL is, for me longevity has to be taken into greater consideration. LT is up there with the best defenders ever (I don't think you can say he was indisputably the best but he's got an argument), and Brown was obviously amazing but projecting his career out hypothetically is unconvincing.

I think if you polled sports fans who follow both the NBA and NFL it'd be pretty indisputable that the gap between Brady and whoever 2nd is (Rice or Montana probably) is significantly larger than that between MJ and Lebron.
 
This has been on my mind for a while but I don't know if it's accurate. Finch is to the Wolves what Jason Kidd was to the Bucks, a decent coach and a big upgrade from previous coaches but his shortcomings are too many, he has no control of games and it feels like the team is constantly in sink or swim mode. There is a lack of set plays, of plays that the team master and can allow them to regroup when the opposition is hot.

Edit: I would love Nick Nurse.
 
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JPRouve said:
This has been on my mind for a while but I don't know if it's accurate. Finch is to the Wolves what Jason Kidd was to the Bucks, a decent coach and a big upgrade from previous coaches but his shortcomings are too many, he has no control of games and it feels like the team is constantly in sink or swim mode. There is a lack of set plays, of plays that the team master and can allow them to regroup when the opposition is hot.

Edit: I would love Nick Nurse.
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Calling Kidd a decent coach is being extremely generous IMO.

But I don't rate Finch either and would upgrade with Nurse if that option is on the table.
 
ZDwyr said:
Calling Kidd a decent coach is being extremely generous IMO.

But I don't rate Finch either and would upgrade with Nurse if that option is on the table.
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He is decent when you consider that he can manage a team to roughly .500. We have seen many NBA coaches that aren't close to that.
 
JPRouve said:
He is decent when you consider that he can manage a team to roughly .500. We have seen many NBA coaches that aren't close to that.
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I'd say most coaches would be able to manage Bucks and Mavs to .500.
 
Sarni said:
I'd say most coaches would be able to manage Bucks and Mavs to .500.
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The good and decent would, the actually bad ones wouldn't and don't. Is that most current coaches? Maybe.

The point I'm making is that if you roughly divide coaches in three categories, they are in the middle third which as far as I understand the term qualifies as decent. And if you want to do anything in the playoffs you either need to rely on bonafide superstars or a combination of top coaching and maybe less stars in your rotation.
 
Kidd is absolutely horrendous.

It's the guy who said this, as HEAD COACH OF AN NBA TEAM, after blowing a 27-point to the Lakers this season:
"I'm not the savior here. I'm not playing. I'm watching, just like you guys," he told reporters. "As a team, we've got to mature. ... We've got to grow up."
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If I'm the owner I'm firing him the next day. It's your fecking job to not watch but rather coach these guys and do something about it you clown. Just another NBA great who got given a HC job without any previous accomplishments in coaching. It's just not for everyone.
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
I was a kid in Chicago at the time! I met the guy!

I can understand your perspective since you seem to focus a lot more on peak versus longevity - but I think you can't universally apply the same criteria across both sports. In the NBA, where success is driven by your best player by a much greater extent than the NFL, I'd lean towards peak over longevity and that's why I fully agree that MJ is the GOAT over Lebron. But especially given how physically demanding the NFL is, for me longevity has to be taken into greater consideration. LT is up there with the best defenders ever (I don't think you can say he was indisputably the best but he's got an argument), and Brown was obviously amazing but projecting his career out hypothetically is unconvincing.

I think if you polled sports fans who follow both the NBA and NFL it'd be pretty indisputable that the gap between Brady and whoever 2nd is (Rice or Montana probably) is significantly larger than that between MJ and Lebron.
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I don't think this is true at all, especially if you poll people who saw both LeBron and MJ play.

I value both peak and longevity but put more emphasis on the peak performance of a player. Here's a quick quiz. Pick which of these players you would put in the Baseball hall of fame:

1. 196 Wins, 2670 K's
David Cone
2. 165 Wins, 2,400 K's
Sandy Koufax
2. 200 Wins, 2,490 K's
Jon Lester

Once you know the names and can place the context around their careers it is a pretty obvious answer. Longevity does mean something, but only one of those dudes up there is in the conversation of greatest pitchers ever. What matters is how dominant a player was in their sport over their career, in addition to the length of that dominance.

So sticking with MJ for a moment, he was in the top 3 of MVP voting in 9 (won 5) of 15 years, and in one of those other 6 he only played 17 games and in 2 of the others he was an old man on the Wiz. How about all NBA teams? 11, including 10 first teams.

Now let's look at Brady and go step further and compare him to his main rival in his career in Peyton. Brady has been in the MVP top 3 for 9 times (same as Manning), but Peyton has 5 MVP's vs. Brady's 3. 1st Team awards? 3 for Brady and 7 for Manning. Is Manning in the same tier as Brady in terms of all time greats? Hell no.

This is the reason for my comparison to Russell. Both of them are the phenomenal winners and leaders, both of them were elitely talented athletes in their respective sports, but they both were never the single dominant force in their sport like MJ and Gretzky were in theirs over multiple years.

I despise Brady on a personal level because of his off the field grifting bullshit (FTX/NFT's/TB12 etc.), but as a player he is undoubtedly a top 5 great. Where he ranks is up to how one judges "greatest", and I am possibly dropping him based on his extra-football shit, but I don't think so. Actually, looking over his stats for this post has made me more confident he is both in the top 5 and that he is not at 1. I actually a more comfortable with my LT opinion. JFC, the guy won the MVPas a defender (one of only 3 and the last to do it 37 years ago!!)


edit: Actually supporting my first point, last month The Athletic surveyed 100 current NBA players on the GOAT and this was the result:



However, in the same poll 4 years earlier it was 73% to 12%. The generation that grew up and saw MJ play is long aged out of the league, but now the generation that grew up on the stories from their parents/grandparents is aging out while the LeBron era kids keep coming. I would bet in 10 years it's 50/50 or tilted to LeBron.
 
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WI_Red said:
I don't think this is true at all, especially if you poll people who saw both LeBron and MJ play.

I value both peak and longevity but put more emphasis on the peak performance of a player. Here's a quick quiz. Pick which of these players you would put in the Baseball hall of fame:

1. 196 Wins, 2670 K's
David Cone
2. 165 Wins, 2,400 K's
Sandy Koufax
2. 200 Wins, 2,490 K's
Jon Lester

Once you know the names and can place the context around their careers it is a pretty obvious answer. Longevity does mean something, but only one of those dudes up there is in the conversation of greatest pitchers ever. What matters is how dominant a player was in their sport over their career, in addition to the length of that dominance.

So sticking with MJ for a moment, he was in the top 3 of MVP voting in 9 (won 5) of 15 years, and in one of those other 6 he only played 17 games and in 2 of the others he was an old man on the Wiz. How about all NBA teams? 11, including 10 first teams.

Now let's look at Brady and go step further and compare him to his main rival in his career in Peyton. Brady has been in the MVP top 3 for 9 times (same as Manning), but Peyton has 5 MVP's vs. Brady's 3. 1st Team awards? 3 for Brady and 7 for Manning. Is Manning in the same tier as Brady in terms of all time greats? Hell no.

This is the reason for my comparison to Russell. Both of them are the phenomenal winners and leaders, both of them were elitely talented athletes in their respective sports, but they both were never the single dominant force in their sport like MJ and Gretzky were in theirs over multiple years.

I despise Brady on a personal level because of his off the field grifting bullshit (FTX/NFT's/TB12 etc.), but as a player he is undoubtedly a top 5 great. Where he ranks is up to how one judges "greatest", and I am possibly dropping him based on his extra-football shit, but I don't think so. Actually, looking over his stats for this post has made me more confident he is both in the top 5 and that he is not at 1. I actually a more comfortable with my LT opinion. JFC, the guy won the MVPas a defender (one of only 3 and the last to do it 37 years ago!!)
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It's weird to say Brady wasn't a dominant force in his sport when you think about how he has more Super Bowl victories than any - ANY! - other NFL franchise. He went to 10 Super Bowls in 21 healthy seasons, so he was basically in the big game every other year. He was the first ever unanimous MVP so definitely had utterly dominant stretches. Was on the last team to go 16-0 in the regular season as well. He's the oldest MVP, oldest Pro Bowl QB, oldest Super Bowl MVP, ... so certainly has the longevity. People go on about his defenses, how he was lucky sometimes, ... but the fact that not even another franchise has done what he was able to do shows that it's an accomplishment that's near impossible to be repeated. The biggest knock on him was that he was a system QB playing for the greatest HC of all-time but then he went to another conference and just won the bloody thing again in his first year in a new system with a HC who had never won a ring before.

This isn't the NFL thread so I'll leave it at that. Of course it's a perfectly valid opinion you hold (and no doubt LT was one of the greatest to ever do it), but there are more arguments against MJ being the GOAT (and certainly more than nostalgia-filled people who watched him when they were young are going to want to hear about) than there are against Brady being the GOAT. And I don't even like Brady by the way, just go get that out of the way as well. Just can't really stand the "MJ is the GOAT whatever what" crowd who are refusing to hear other arguments. I also have him as the GOAT but no one saying or arguing LeBron should be ridiculed for that either by now imo.
 
WI_Red said:
I don't think this is true at all, especially if you poll people who saw both LeBron and MJ play.

I value both peak and longevity but put more emphasis on the peak performance of a player. Here's a quick quiz. Pick which of these players you would put in the Baseball hall of fame:

1. 196 Wins, 2670 K's
David Cone
2. 165 Wins, 2,400 K's
Sandy Koufax
2. 200 Wins, 2,490 K's
Jon Lester

Once you know the names and can place the context around their careers it is a pretty obvious answer. Longevity does mean something, but only one of those dudes up there is in the conversation of greatest pitchers ever. What matters is how dominant a player was in their sport over their career, in addition to the length of that dominance.

So sticking with MJ for a moment, he was in the top 3 of MVP voting in 9 (won 5) of 15 years, and in one of those other 6 he only played 17 games and in 2 of the others he was an old man on the Wiz. How about all NBA teams? 11, including 10 first teams.

Now let's look at Brady and go step further and compare him to his main rival in his career in Peyton. Brady has been in the MVP top 3 for 9 times (same as Manning), but Peyton has 5 MVP's vs. Brady's 3. 1st Team awards? 3 for Brady and 7 for Manning. Is Manning in the same tier as Brady in terms of all time greats? Hell no.

This is the reason for my comparison to Russell. Both of them are the phenomenal winners and leaders, both of them were elitely talented athletes in their respective sports, but they both were never the single dominant force in their sport like MJ and Gretzky were in theirs over multiple years.

I despise Brady on a personal level because of his off the field grifting bullshit (FTX/NFT's/TB12 etc.), but as a player he is undoubtedly a top 5 great. Where he ranks is up to how one judges "greatest", and I am possibly dropping him based on his extra-football shit, but I don't think so. Actually, looking over his stats for this post has made me more confident he is both in the top 5 and that he is not at 1. I actually a more comfortable with my LT opinion. JFC, the guy won the MVPas a defender (one of only 3 and the last to do it 37 years ago!!)


edit: Actually supporting my first point, last month The Athletic surveyed 100 current NBA players on the GOAT and this was the result:



However, in the same poll 4 years earlier it was 73% to 12%. The generation that grew up and saw MJ play is long aged out of the league, but now the generation that grew up on the stories from their parents/grandparents is aging out while the LeBron era kids keep coming. I would bet in 10 years it's 50/50 or tilted to LeBron.
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I take your point about baseball, but you are introducing the additional wrinkle of comparing across eras, which makes it a far thornier issue.

I just don't think MVP results are necessarily reflective of value to the same extent, especially considering how narrative-driven the process is. Belichick has only 3 coach of the years, which is ludicrous. Until this past year, Brady had not gone consecutive years in his career without appearing in either the AFC or NFC championship game. He has by far and away the most dominant NFL career ever - and I'd put a lot more import on team success over individual awards when gauging that.
 
Yeah, and he got robbed of a few additional MVPs because of voter fatigue as well. Although MJ might've had a claim for Barkley's MVP and a few others as well, unsure of that.
 
JPRouve said:
The good and decent would, the actually bad ones wouldn't and don't. Is that most current coaches? Maybe.

The point I'm making is that if you roughly divide coaches in three categories, they are in the middle third which as far as I understand the term qualifies as decent. And if you want to do anything in the playoffs you either need to rely on bonafide superstars or a combination of top coaching and maybe less stars in your rotation.
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Kidd’s biggest coaching achievement will be how he tried to win a timeout by asking his player to knock into him to spill water on the court.

That’s it. He’s shit.
 
RobinLFC said:
Kidd is absolutely horrendous.

It's the guy who said this, as HEAD COACH OF AN NBA TEAM, after blowing a 27-point to the Lakers this season:


If I'm the owner I'm firing him the next day. It's your fecking job to not watch but rather coach these guys and do something about it you clown. Just another NBA great who got given a HC job without any previous accomplishments in coaching. It's just not for everyone.
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He’s a clown. But considering that he’s working for the Mavs, it’s a good fit. Clowns belong in the circus, after all.
 
You guys do realize that the point wasn't about Kidd being good or how he will achieve anything more than .500 records, it wasn't a praise?

The point is that the likes of Finch or Kidd are around average which they are. While the likes of Musselman, Sidney Lowe or Ryan Saunders are/were actually shit. The likes of Finch or Kidd are upgrades on actually bad head coaches but it's not good enough if you want to be a serious contender.
 
JPRouve said:
You guys do realize that the point wasn't about Kidd being good or how he will achieve anything more than .500 records, it wasn't a praise?

The point is that the likes of Finch or Kidd are around average which they are. While the likes of Musselman, Sidney Lowe or Ryan Saunders are/were actually shit. The likes of Finch or Kidd are upgrades on actually bad head coaches but it's not good enough if you want to be a serious contender.
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But our main point is that he’s not average and he’s just shit.
 
elmo said:
But our main point is that he’s not average and he’s just shit.
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Fair enough. In that case it cement my idea even more Finch is shit and should be replaced asap.
 
RobinLFC said:
It's weird to say Brady wasn't a dominant force in his sport when you think about how he has more Super Bowl victories than any - ANY! - other NFL franchise. He went to 10 Super Bowls in 21 healthy seasons, so he was basically in the big game every other year. He was the first ever unanimous MVP so definitely had utterly dominant stretches. Was on the last team to go 16-0 in the regular season as well. He's the oldest MVP, oldest Pro Bowl QB, oldest Super Bowl MVP, ... so certainly has the longevity. People go on about his defenses, how he was lucky sometimes, ... but the fact that not even another franchise has done what he was able to do shows that it's an accomplishment that's near impossible to be repeated. The biggest knock on him was that he was a system QB playing for the greatest HC of all-time but then he went to another conference and just won the bloody thing again in his first year in a new system with a HC who had never won a ring before.

This isn't the NFL thread so I'll leave it at that. Of course it's a perfectly valid opinion you hold (and no doubt LT was one of the greatest to ever do it), but there are more arguments against MJ being the GOAT (and certainly more than nostalgia-filled people who watched him when they were young are going to want to hear about) than there are against Brady being the GOAT. And I don't even like Brady by the way, just go get that out of the way as well. Just can't really stand the "MJ is the GOAT whatever what" crowd who are refusing to hear other arguments. I also have him as the GOAT but no one saying or arguing LeBron should be ridiculed for that either by now imo.
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TheMagicFoolBus said:
I take your point about baseball, but you are introducing the additional wrinkle of comparing across eras, which makes it a far thornier issue.

I just don't think MVP results are necessarily reflective of value to the same extent, especially considering how narrative-driven the process is. Belichick has only 3 coach of the years, which is ludicrous. Until this past year, Brady had not gone consecutive years in his career without appearing in either the AFC or NFC championship game. He has by far and away the most dominant NFL career ever - and I'd put a lot more import on team success over individual awards when gauging that.
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Thanks for the discussion on Brady guys, really interesting to get others perspectives! We'll agree to disagree for now and I will stop here so as not to derail the NBA thread further with NFL talk.
 
I never liked him when playing but Jordan is the GOAT in my view though I find it a very fair debate as James has his credits to consider as well. The one thing that I do find interesting is that some only compare Finals records, which in itself is truly a subset of the overall season ending for every player. Jordan was unbelievable in all six Finals he participated, James had a couple series where his actions/performances could be debated as costing his team which wouldn't have been there without him obviously. But the rest of those Finals he was easily the best player out there, even in an eventual loss.

Jordan was 6-0 in the Finals but he/his team failed in 9 seasons. James is 4-6 meaning his team got to 10 Finals, tied with Kareem for second most, yet he/his team ultimately failed in 15 seasons with this year to be determined. Jordan still comes out on top in overall championship success rate. Hypothetically, some could state Jordan may have won a couple more if not taking a hiatus from the sport, which is a possible outcome, but one could also say had Jimmy Johnson remained in Dallas the 49ers don't win in 94 and the Boys probably take four straight and probably one or two more in the 90s. Anything is possible when using a hypothetical.

Russell and Jones are the top of the mountain in championship success rate and Horry is 7-0 in the Finals (as a role player).

*Using the Russell era is difficult in my opinion as the league and the sport has evolved so far that it makes that era look almost amateur in some aspects.
 
In 200 years, when debating the Goat of Basketbal, neither MJ nor Lebron will make the top 10.
 
WI_Red said:
Thanks for the discussion on Brady guys, really interesting to get others perspectives! We'll agree to disagree for now and I will stop here so as not to derail the NBA thread further with NFL talk.
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Genuinely a pleasure mate - always enjoy having back and forths!
 
According to ESPN De'Aaron Fox has fractured a finger on his shooting hand and is listed as "doubtful" for game 5.
 
Fox now seemingly out for Game 5 and most likely the entire series with fractured finger. There ends Kings wonderful journey but what a ride it was.
 
That's a shame another injury to a key player derails a team and playoff chances. I feel like the NBA is getting more and more like the NFL in terms of attrition and whoever has enough talent standing come playoff time, you'll be able to make a run. It's more impactful in NBA since key players are fewer than NFL and can make the differences when weather isn't an issue and 7 game series usually see quality win out rather than 1 offs.
 
WI_Red said:
Agree to strongly, strongly, disagree. No judging, but did you see MJ play in real time? I was in my teens during his threepeat/baseball/threepeat years and there has never been, and will likely never be, an athlete that dominant over that period of time. He would have like won 8 straight titles if not for the break. He was an all time scorer and defender. He never lost a finals series. Ever.

Brady is an all time great QB, maybe the best ever, but he is not in my mind the greatest ever. Honestly, it’s LT or Brown for me. LT was the greatest defender I have ever seen and could single handedly shut down opposing offenses. Brown would likely own every NFL rushing record had he not retired at the peak of his career (29 and had won the MVP).
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I love 'agree to STRONGLY STRONGLY disagree' :lol:
I will be using that in my future posts if you don't mind.....

By the way, I 'strongly agree' with everything you said here.
 
RobinLFC said:
While of course any GOAT debate is subjective and everyone has their own opinion on it, saying that LT or Brown are NFL GOATs is a far, far bolder claim than saying LeBron is the NBA GOAT. The former two aren't even in 99% of conversations for the best-ever NFL player - and while I appreciate that MJ truthers will argue that there isn't a debate on the NBA GOAT either, LeBron certainly has some arguments in favor of him (objectively speaking, from a stats, longevity, impact, marketability, ... point of view, basically any metric out there bar Finals wins).
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Everything in this post is wrong. Literally everything. Respectfully.

First of all, Jim Brown and Lawrence Taylor are absolutely GOAT candidates and have been thought so for decades.

Secondly, Michael Jordan has more titles, more MVPs, more finals MVPs, more defensive honours and way more league leading stat honours than LeBron and he played like half the seasons (not quite but it will be). So it's not just about more finals wins. Not to mention that his shoes sell more than all the current NBA players' shoes combined, some 20 years after he retired. So I'm not sure how they're even comparable in a marketing sense as you've stated.
 
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Andrade said:
Everything in this post is wrong. Literally everything. Respectfully.

First of all, Jim Brown and Lawrence Taylor are absolutely GOAT candidates and have been thought so for decades.

Secondly, Michael Jordan has more titles, more MVPs, more finals MVPs, more defensive honours and way more league leading stat honours than LeBron and he played like half the seasons (not quite but it will be). So it's not just about more finals wins. Not to mention that his shoes sell more than all the current NBA players' shoes combined, some 20 years after he retired. So I'm not sure how they're even comparable in a marketing sense as you've stated.
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No one is denying that they are candidates. The simple fact of the matter is that Tom Brady has had the best career of any player ever in the history of the NFL and it's not particularly close. You can literally divide his career in 3 and each third has a Hall of Fame level resume.

Andrade said:
I've edited my post to explain exactly why you're wrong but the most egregious part is what you've said about Jim Brown and LT. That is objectively wrong
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Jim Brown and LT are a lot further from Brady than Lebron is from MJ. And this is from a staunch MJ as GOAT zealot who is not a fan of Lebron and what he's done to the NBA.
 
What deal with the devil did the Warriors make to get all this luck?
 
Andrade said:
I've edited my post to explain exactly why you're wrong but the most egregious part is what you've said about Jim Brown and LT. That is objectively wrong
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No you didn't prove how I was "wrong" at all, all you've done is sum up some arguments why Jordan > LeBron, which I even stated in my original post that I also have it that way. Laughable reply and I don't have time for people who simply think they know better than someone else in a debate about opinions. Have a good night!
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
No one is denying that they are candidates. The simple fact of the matter is that Tom Brady has had the best career of any player ever in the history of the NFL and it's not particularly close. You can literally divide his career in 3 and each third has a Hall of Fame level resume.



Jim Brown and LT are a lot further from Brady than Lebron is from MJ. And this is from a staunch MJ as GOAT zealot who is not a fan of Lebron and what he's done to the NBA.
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They are not. They all play different positions and the position Brady plays has a greater impact on the fortunes of the team as has always been the case with QBs. But he is not better at quarterbacking than Jim Brown was at playing running back and LT was as a defender. He just isn't. Because of his success and longevity he would likely be number one in an all time list now but this is a recent development with the extra success he had in his 40s, in a pattycake, touch football league when no one was allowed to breathe on him. For a long time, the greatest football players of all time were thought to be Brown, LT and Rice.

Comparing Lebron and MJ only seems like a closer debate because they basically do the same things, which is the nature of basketball v football
 
Andrade said:
They are not. They all play different positions and the position Brady plays has a greater impact on the fortunes of the team as has always been the case with QBs. But he is not better at quarterbacking than Jim Brown was at playing running back and LT was as a defender. He just isn't. Because of his success and longevity he would likely be number one in an all time list now but this is a recent development with the extra success he had in his 40s, in a pattycake, touch football league when no one was allowed to breathe on him. For a long time, the greatest football players of all time were thought to be Brown, LT and Rice.

Comparing Lebron and MJ only seems like a closer debate because they basically do the same things, which is the nature of basketball v football
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This whole post is just completely wrong.

Respectfully.
 
RobinLFC said:
No you didn't prove how I was "wrong" at all, all you've done is sum up some arguments why Jordan > LeBron, which I even stated in my original post that I also have it that way. Laughable reply and I don't have time for people who simply think they know better than someone else in a debate about opinions. Have a good night!
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Glad you admit that you were wrong about LT and Brown. You have a good night too bud
 
Andrade said:
They are not. They all play different positions and the position Brady plays has a greater impact on the fortunes of the team as has always been the case with QBs. But he is not better at quarterbacking than Jim Brown was at playing running back and LT was as a defender. He just isn't. Because of his success and longevity he would likely be number one in an all time list now but this is a recent development with the extra success he had in his 40s, in a pattycake, touch football league when no one was allowed to breathe on him. For a long time, the greatest football players of all time were thought to be Brown, LT and Rice.

Comparing Lebron and MJ only seems like a closer debate because they basically do the same things, which is the nature of basketball v football
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Of course he's better at it than they were. He has twice as many SB appearances as the next QB on the list. Do you think that Jim Brown or LT were more than twice as valuable as the next best player at their position, since you seem to be implying that Brady and other QBs should be measured via team success? This might help you get started on that: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/av_career.htm

It's amusing that you are trying to argue that "well for a long time, this is how people thought" as if that's somehow relevant to someone better coming along and blowing them out of the water.
 
RobinLFC said:
This whole post is just completely wrong.

Respectfully.
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Nope, but then you probably weren't aware that in 2010, halfway through Brady's career that lasted as long as it did only because the game is 10 times softer now, the NFL did a top 100 players of all time and Brown and LT were in the top 3. Brady was 21st. If you do it today then Brady would likely be number 1 but it's just wrong to say they are not comparable to him. They are the most dominant players in the history of the sport.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
I wonder if any team will give Kawhi and PG a max contract from now on. Utterly unreliable in terms of health, even after resting both of them so many games.

Westbrook has played his heart out but has gotten no superstar support, must feel like he's been at OKC in those years after KD and before PG.
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Kawhi big yes imho… George will happily fool a fool from a small market!
 
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