According to the 538 Raptor index, he’s the worst player in the league in this adjusted plus minus stat.
NBA 2021-2022
- Thread starter elmo
- Start date
Yeah his net rating is not good at -15.3. Though it's fair to point out that all of Houston starters are at the bottom of the league.
There is something that I really don't understand. In this MVP conversation the two recurring arguments used in favor of Embiid are his dominance and his ablity to score when he wants. Am I missing something or Jokic isn't the player that contributes to the largest amount of points(shooting and passing), rebounds the most and he is also more efficient? The only argument that I see in terms of dominance for Embiid is that he draws more fouls but that's largely reflected in his points average.
I will die on this hill: There is absolutely no argument in favor of Embiid over Jokic. None. This MVP race is only narrative driven.
If there is an argument it could be with Giannis not Embiid.
Agreed, but the Bucks team without Giannis is still vastly better than the injury plagued Nuggets without Jokic. And I think the "Valuable" in MVP should actually mean something.
They are usually narrative driven, voters really, really hate to vote for the same person twice in a row.
The problem is Jokic isn't a traditional big. When we think about traditional bigs we think about dominance in the paint, being physical and bullying smaller opponents, that's not Jokic's game and certainly Embiid is better at that.
Jokic's playmaking abilities won't be rated as highly as they should because he is a center and that won't be the focus when people are trying to rate him. He certainly influences more on the court compared to Embiid, but being 7 foot everyone, especially ex-players, expects him to play in the paint and bully opponents, as supposed to staying out and playmaking like he does.
Embiid would've won last season as well had he not gotten injured, it would be very difficult for Jokic to win the MVP with everyone fit and healthy because he will never have the narrative in his favour. He can get as many rebounds and assists as he can, if he scores less than Embiid, the vote will go to Embiid.
I agree with your view of the situation but I can't understand the logic that they are applying, to me it's painfully dumb. Jokic is the better player in every aspect of the game outside of athleticism and as a rim protector but he is pretty good on the perimeter, the same has been true for KAT. Also to me Jokic is better as a scorer, he averages 4 less point per game but with 6 fewer FT per game, Embiid isn't a better shooter and without FTs he is a worse scorer.
And then there is the small issue that Embiid isn't a traditional big either, the traditional bigs that are Gobert and Steven Adams aren't in the conversation largely because they are traditional bigs and their comparative limitations are obvious. Nonetheless Gobert is a better rim protector while Steven Adams is way more dominant in the paint if we use the description that you shared, in fact Valanciunas is also more dominant.
So to me even if we were to limit the debate to traditional bigs, it would make no sense since neither are traditional.
Jokic's dominance is more reliant on his teammates making shots, and he himself just isn't as good or as willing a scorer as Embiid
Plus, Embiid is genuinely an absolute terror on defence in a way Jokic will never be
Plus, Embiid is genuinely an absolute terror on defence in a way Jokic will never be
Giannis is the most complete out the three.
So you are saying that the player that makes more shots and is more efficient isn't as good or as willing a scorer?
Per 36 Jokic takes 18.8 FG per game and makes .572 of them. Embiid take 19.3 FG per game and makes .485 of them.
How do you make the case that one is reliant on his teammates to shoot when they attempt a pretty close amount of field goals per game and how do you make the point that the one with the significantly worse efficiency is the better scorer?
Eh, i guess i don't
That logic just says the MVP should always be the top scorer of the league, and devalues players who are floor generals and help their teammates get better, which is what Jokic does.
Just saw a stat about Steph and Draymond. In the 15 minutes Steph and Dray played together Steph scored 41. In the 20 minutes he played without him Steph scored 6.
Let’s look at all the gold standard advanced stats rankings for this season
Darko
Giannis, Embiid, Lebron, Jokic, Steph
EPM (Estimated +/-)
Jokic, Embiid, Giannis, Steph, Lebron
LEBRON
Jokic, Embiid, Giannis, Gobert, Steph
Raptor
Jokic, Tatum, Steph, Giannis, Embiid
BPM (Box +/-)
Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Doncic, Lebron
If we went with a survey of all of these metrics, your top 5 will be
Jokic
Embiid / Giannis
Steph
Lebron
Darko
Giannis, Embiid, Lebron, Jokic, Steph
EPM (Estimated +/-)
Jokic, Embiid, Giannis, Steph, Lebron
LEBRON
Jokic, Embiid, Giannis, Gobert, Steph
Raptor
Jokic, Tatum, Steph, Giannis, Embiid
BPM (Box +/-)
Jokic, Giannis, Embiid, Doncic, Lebron
If we went with a survey of all of these metrics, your top 5 will be
Jokic
Embiid / Giannis
Steph
Lebron
Another 60 point game tonight tonight, this time by Kyrie, following Towns' 60 point effort last night. Quite a few 50+ point games this season.
Agreed, if you bother to look even an inch deeper it's clearly the Joker.
Wrong. Jokic could quite easily be a better scorer. He's better around the rim, and a better shot in general with a higher efficiency.
If he was less selfless then he'd average 30ppg quite easily - and that's not a backhanded dig at Embiid being selfish. Joker just controls the whole team and is responsible for playmaking. Embiid simply can't do that.
Also he doesn't get carried to the FT line like Embiid does though, despite being the other premier scorer in the paint.
It was a point made out of complete ignorance. A real Nick Wright special.
The only thing Embiid is better than Jokic in offense is his ability to sell contact to draw fouls.
That's enough for me. Embiid should be MVP
Dunno how in general points per game can be mentioned without %s of those shots, thats just weird.
When it comes to dominance in attack, without memeing on Embiid and his FTs, they both dominate just in different way.
When it comes to dominance in attack, without memeing on Embiid and his FTs, they both dominate just in different way.
Giannis
Jokic
Embiid
for me Giannis contribution on defence shouldn’t and can’t be ignored.
Jokic
Embiid
for me Giannis contribution on defence shouldn’t and can’t be ignored.
Kyrie is such a diva, he couldn't accept the fact that people weren't talking about him. Now Kat needs to go to 70.
Emblid hasn't been half bad (double neg I know) on defense. Given team record and individual contributions, I think any of these names would be worthy MVP recipients so I'd give the nod to Emblid, cause feck Simmons
And yet the Nuggets has the same defensive rating as the Bucks despite the Bucks roster having superior defenders on their roster.
Team defense > individual defense.
The debate is settled KAT is the true MVP.
Agree but we’re talking about individual players Giannis is in the running for Dpoy while being great in attack, he’s the least natural basketball player out the three but the most complete and arguably impactful
when you look at the scope of his talents.
Jokic ranks among the top few C's for PnR defending.
League leader in tipped passes for C's, and is currently the clear league leader for steals amongst C's.
The Dubs are cursed this year. Steph, Klay and Draymond back for one game together and now Curry goes down.
Borderline dirty play from Marcus Smart. If not intentional it was definitely reckless.
Borderline dirty play from Marcus Smart. If not intentional it was definitely reckless.
I love what is happening at the moment. Other fanbases are trying to hit back at the Wolves fans by telling them that the Wolves have been historically trash, seemingly not realizing that Wolves fans are perfectly aware of that and have accepted it a long time ago which makes things even sweeter, anything that isn't objectively bad is a bonus and worthy of a celebration.
I love what is happening at the moment. Other fanbases are trying to hit back at the Wolves fans by telling them that the Wolves have been historically trash, seemingly not realizing that Wolves fans are perfectly aware of that and have accepted it a long time ago which makes things even sweeter, anything that isn't objectively bad is a bonus and worthy of a celebration.
So what, there is nothing to deslike about Wolves, might be wrong due having not a big knowledge about it but think they built their roster in proper way, saw a picture of them all around KAT after he dropped 60pts in a locker room. Its gives you that culture vibe, which might not lead to winning a chip but at least in general it shows mentality where you know there are weaknesss around but you ready to push yourself to very max to overcome them.
Personally, i find KAT being a bit weird when it comes some stuff but he is really good player when it comes to basketball.
I saw a short clip, is it when he went for a ball and was falling on SC ankle, didnt see whole thing, just that snip.
I'm a Wolves fan. I was talking about almost every other fanbase hitting back when their team loses to the Wolves with a resume of the franchise history as if Wolves fans weren't aware.
Dinwiddie can't put a foot wrong, what a great trade this has turned out to be so far. He's hit game winning threes two games in a row now, this time a buzzer beater against the Nets.
I never would've thought that Dinwiddie could rejuvinate himself like that.
I never would've thought that Dinwiddie could rejuvinate himself like that.
I love how KAT and company get to be the gloaters for once, the Wolves really deserve it and him especially. KAT checking for a sudden wind gust after Westbrook whiffed that three was poetry.
I am sorry, so what tone wasnt aimed at you
Wolves do employ Pat Bev though, so they deserve all the misery