NBA 2019-2020

[Skåre Willoch]

Luka is a serious contender for MVP next season. Best 21 year old since LeBron? Some really great young europeans in the league right now. Doncic, Giannis, Porzingis, Jokic.

I look forward to when these young (soon-to-be-)superstars star moving around. Luka to the Celtics with JB and JT

 

[RobinLFC]

Luka is a serious contender for MVP next season. Best 21 year old since LeBron? Some really great young europeans in the league right now. Doncic, Giannis, Porzingis, Jokic.

I look forward to when these young (soon-to-be-)superstars star moving around. Luka to the Celtics with JB and JT

I was gonna say D-Rose but not sure he was already at this level in 09/10. If Luka should win MVP next season (doubt that since the Mavs' record won't be good enough imo), he'll beat Rose as youngest MVP ever by a few months.

 

[R.E.D.]

I was gonna say D-Rose but not sure he was already at this level in 09/10. If Luka should win MVP next season (doubt that since the Mavs' record won't be good enough imo), he'll beat Rose as youngest MVP ever by a few months.

Depends on when the season will be started though.

 

[Squeaky Bumtime]

Luka is a beast, when you think you've seen it all he does that. Unreal stuff.

Clippers could easily go out at this rate. They have an immense depth, PG and Kawhi, had 21 point lead, Porzingis out, everything and they flopped. I think they were messing around with the team too much during regular season although they had some injuries. They should have worked on chemistry more, acted like they've already won the thing or like their current champions. Its as if they believe their own hype which could be their undoing.

PG froze again, 9 points, unacceptable. Doc will insist with more minutes for Harrell than for Zubac even if it costs him the series.

 

[Squeaky Bumtime]

Btw as for Europeans how do you guys rate Kukoč?

 

[Skåre Willoch]

I was gonna say D-Rose but not sure he was already at this level in 09/10. If Luka should win MVP next season (doubt that since the Mavs' record won't be good enough imo), he'll beat Rose as youngest MVP ever by a few months.

This is not to slate D-rose in any way, but was he ever as complete as Luka is right now? He was spectacular and that season was literally insane, but Luka is on another level surely?

 

[Zen]

It's hard to compare Rose and Luka.... this is a massive stat loving era. Juiced stats everywhere. Rose likely could of been closer to 30ppg with lower minutes if you just transform him to today, he wouldn't push triple double numbers like Luka or his high a scorer of Harden.

But the statsfest era is allowing players to flourish it seems. Theres a big wealth of absurd talent at the moment and Currys out, the man who started the absurdity.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Well yes I should have said:

*Unless he gets a major injury ala Rose then ya

The kid is just unreal and a generational talent.

He is only 21 years old and in his second year nearly averaging a triple double the assumption here is that he can only get better especially once he enters his prime and we all see how good he is now.

I think baring any major setbacks he has everything to be the greatest maverick of all time. Dirk as you said is arguably a top 20 guy but Luka has that potential and ability to usurp him.

Like I said 15 more years of this and 1 or 2 championships and it’s his IMO.

Should be aiming higher than Dirk to be honest.

This is not to slate D-rose in any way, but was he ever as complete as Luka is right now? He was spectacular and that season was literally insane, but Luka is on another level surely?

He is. He's playing like an all time great. Derrick was great and all but it never felt like he was the best player in the game or close to it. Even after winning his mvp. Ll

 

[UweBein]

Btw as for Europeans how do you guys rate Kukoč?

He would be much better in today's era.
Different era, different times for Kukoc. The NBA was a different beast then. Kukoc had already won more in Europe by then. Difficult to compare.

Kukoc would be great today playing for GSW, for example.

Personally, I loved him, but he just did not excell in the NBA.

 

[RobinLFC]

Should be aiming higher than Dirk to be honest.

Dirk is arguably the greatest European player to ever play in the NBA. If Doncic surpasses that he'll have done well for himself (and he'll be a top 20 player of all-time, probably).

 

[Squeaky Bumtime]

He would be much better in today's era.
Different era, different times for Kukoc. The NBA was a different beast then. Kukoc had already won more in Europe by then. Difficult to compare.

Kukoc would be great today playing for GSW, for example.

Personally, I loved him, but he just did not excell in the NBA.

He was good in the NBA but was in a star studded team so his qualities didnt show as much and was basically a 6th man. His efforts in the NBA get overlooked too much imo.
But as you say he did his part in Europe already prior to coming and yeah he'd be great in today's game.

P.s. Dražen Petrović, if not for his tragic death would have a fantastic NBA career, already had a pretty good one up until that point.

 

[giorno]

He is. He's playing like an all time great. Derrick was great and all but it never felt like he was the best player in the game or close to it. Even after winning his mvp. Ll

Recency bias? Rose was every bit as absurd

Also Luka doesn't feel like the best player in the game when you have guys like Giannis, Harden and Dame playing like they're playing. Mitchell too, he's been the best player in these playoffs so far imho

 

[RobinLFC]

Recency bias? Rose was every bit as absurd

Also Luka doesn't feel like the best player in the game when you have guys like Giannis, Harden and Dame playing like they're playing. Mitchell too, he's been the best player in these playoffs so far imho

He does feel like a top player in the league to me, not in Giannis' category, and he's not as good offensively as Harden or Lillard obviously, but Doncic is exceptional. Led the league in triple doubles too by the way.

 

[giorno]

He does feel like a top player in the league to me, not in Giannis' category, and he's not as good offensively as Harden or Lillard obviously, but Doncic is exceptional. Led the league in triple doubles too by the way.

He is all of that

So was Rose

 

[Zen]

Are you now disagreeing with yourself?

I'm not sure Rose was that good, was the talent there? Sure. But he wasn't massively convincing to all as a true MVP, yes he won quite handily, but a lot fell in his favour. If you go back to that time, you'd still find a stronger slide towards Paul if people were picking a PG to start with... Paul has probably had at least 2 seasons with better MVP credentials than Rose 2011, but didn't because things didn't fall in his favour..

In fact it was a high time for the PG of many talents, CP, Deron, Rondo, Rose, Russ - Wall was the rookie, Curry only coming through, Parker and Nash still rolling, Kidd about to finally win a ring.

 

[Jim Beam]

Also Luka doesn't feel like the best player in the game when you have guys like Giannis, Harden and Dame playing like they're playing. Mitchell too, he's been the best player in these playoffs so far imho

Only if you judge them purely by scoring. But overall, his passing ability, court vision, the variety of ways he can hurt you offensively, or quite simply his basketball IQ is on another level to pretty much everyone already... Not to mention that he is way ahead of every single one of them at their age. It is like multiple brilliant players rolled into one looking at him at this point and his potential development.

 

[giorno]

Are you now disagreeing with yourself?

I'm not sure Rose was that good, was the talent there? Sure. But he wasn't massively convincing to all as a true MVP, yes he won quite handily, but a lot fell in his favour. If you go back to that time, you'd still find a stronger slide towards Paul if people were picking a PG to start with... Paul has probably had at least 2 seasons with better MVP credentials than Rose 2011, but didn't because things didn't fall in his favour..

In fact it was a high time for the PG of many talents, CP, Deron, Rondo, Rose, Russ - Wall was the rookie, Curry only coming through, Parker and Nash still rolling, Kidd about to finally win a ring.

Doncic isn't winning MVP anyways so not sure why bringing that into it. Everything you've said about Rose is also true about Luka. Unless you'd take him over LeBron, Giannis or Harden? Which honestly, i'd call bs and bias. He's not as good as those guys yet

Rose was every bit as incredible as Doncic

Only if you judge them purely by scoring. But overall, his passing ability, court vision, the variety of ways he can hurt you offensively, or quite simply his basketball IQ is on another level to pretty much everyone already... Not to mention that he is way ahead of every single one of them at their age. It is like multiple brilliant players rolled into one looking at him at this point and his potential development.

Talking about performance here. He's not playing better than Mitchell right now, or Harden or Giannis or Dame. He's not been as good as Giannis, Harden or LeBron for the season either. He's incredible, but he's not currently the best player in the league

He might become that. Rose was also well on his way before the injuries, too

 

[RobinLFC]

Only if you judge them purely by scoring. But overall, his passing ability, court vision, the variety of ways he can hurt you offensively, or quite simply his basketball IQ is on another level to pretty much everyone already... Not to mention that he is way ahead of every single one of them at their age. It is like multiple brilliant players rolled into one looking at him at this point and his potential development.

James averaged 31-7-7 during the regular season, won All-Star Game MVP and was first team All-NBA when he was 21.

Then took his (very average) team to the Finals aged 22, so let's see how Doncic gets on next season (or how far he gets Dallas this year, would be awesome if they eliminated the Clippers).

 

[Jim Beam]

He's not playing better than Mitchell right now, or Harden or Giannis or Dame. He's not been as good as Giannis, Harden or LeBron for the season either.

Overall, I would just put Giannis and Lebron ahead of him this season.

 

[Jim Beam]

James averaged 31-7-7 during the regular season, won All-Star Game MVP and was first team All-NBA when he was 21.

Then took his (very average) team to the Finals aged 22, so let's see how Doncic gets on next season (or how far he gets Dallas this year, would be awesome if they eliminated the Clippers).

There was no mention of Lebron in the post to which I replied.

 

[RobinLFC]

There was no mention of Lebron in the post to which I replied.

Ah I see, apologies! Thought you meant other current superstars in general. He's definitely a lot more polished than the likes of Giannis, Harden and Dame were at 21 yes, no doubt about that.

 

[Stacks]

Luka is the best player in the NBA.

Giannis says hi. Not sure if Luka is even the best guard in the NBA.

 

[Zen]

Doncic isn't winning MVP anyways so not sure why bringing that into it. Everything you've said about Rose is also true about Luka. Unless you'd take him over LeBron, Giannis or Harden? Which honestly, i'd call bs and bias. He's not as good as those guys yet

Rose was every bit as incredible as Doncic

Talking about performance here. He's not playing better than Mitchell right now, or Harden or Giannis or Dame. He's not been as good as Giannis, Harden or LeBron for the season either. He's incredible, but he's not currently the best player in the league

He might become that. Rose was also well on his way before the injuries, too

I don't really understand where you are coming from really - you seem to be arguing for both sides of the debate at once. Bit odd. No one seems to be suggesting he's the best right now. (EDIT - Sorry missed the now quoted above quote! )

I'd 100% take Doncic over Lillard and Mitchell. It's barely even a debate. He's probably top 5 in the league right now, and very few would suggest otherwise. Probably looking at Giannis, LeBron, Kawhi and Harden over him.... I bet a fair few would take him over Harden too, the big pro to Harden is the durability... because give that Doncic and he's averaging well over 30 too.

 

[RooneyLegend]

Doncic isn't winning MVP anyways so not sure why bringing that into it. Everything you've said about Rose is also true about Luka. Unless you'd take him over LeBron, Giannis or Harden? Which honestly, i'd call bs and bias. He's not as good as those guys yet

Rose was every bit as incredible as Doncic

Talking about performance here. He's not playing better than Mitchell right now, or Harden or Giannis or Dame. He's not been as good as Giannis, Harden or LeBron for the season either. He's incredible, but he's not currently the best player in the league

He might become that. Rose was also well on his way before the injuries, too

Why isn't he as good as those guys? He's had a 29, 9, 9 season. He runs what's possibly the best offense in the league. He's putting on a clinic against the clippers, coincidentally the team LeBron can't seem to do much against. What more do you want to see?

 

[RooneyLegend]

Giannis says hi. Not sure if Luka is even the best guard in the NBA.

I'd have him over Harden and Dame. He handles the ball better than Dame and gets to the rim easier and Harden has had issues in the clutch. He also passes much better than either of them.

 

[altodevil]

Doncic is not better than James at this stage in their respective careers jesus

 

[Zen]

Should be noted, based on the players they were - he's not actually top 5 with KD and Curry around. But they have been injured so, for me, 19-20 players, he just about is. Unfair on AD, Jokic? Maybe... eh, who cares really.

 

[WI_Red]

Why isn't he as good as those guys? He's had a 29, 9, 9 season. He runs what's possibly the best offense in the league. He's putting on a clinic against the clippers, coincidentally the team LeBron can't seem to do much against. What more do you want to see?

I get the Doncic love, I really do, but I think perspective is being lost here when there are claims being made like "he is better than LeBron at the same age" or "is the best guard in the NBA". The first claim is absurd and the second one hold's no weight as long as Curry comes back at 100%. The dude is in his second year let's wait till he finishes a few more before anointing him GOAT......

 

[Jim Beam]

Who said he is better than Lebron at the same age ffs.

 

[RobinLFC]

I get the Doncic love, I really do, but I think perspective is being lost here when there are claims being made like "he is better than LeBron at the same age" or "is the best guard in the NBA". The first claim is absurd and the second one hold's no weight as long as Curry comes back at 100%. The dude is in his second year let's wait till he finishes a few more before anointing him GOAT......

Who said he is better than Lebron at the same age ffs.

Yeah no one said that to be fair, I misread a post and thought that someone said it, but that was wrong.

 

[RobinLFC]

Good read.

 

[Stacks]

I'd have him over Harden and Dame. He handles the ball better than Dame and gets to the rim easier and Harden has had issues in the clutch. He also passes much better than either of them.

Dame - Luka does not have better handles than Dame and has more turnovers per game. He does get to the rim easier but Dame has much better shooting (40% from 3 including 35-45 feet range)
Harden - Define clutch? It means something different to everyone. Harden is the best scorer in the league and has the most weapons of all the scoring guards.

I agree regarding Luca's passing being superior.

You forgot about Steph. Since he has been injured, out of sight out of mind comes to play. Steph is a certified Hall of famer and people been sleeping on him all of a sudden. The warriors missed Steph even more than they missed KD when either of them got injured.

With Steph, Harden, Dame all fit is Luka the top guard?

 

[Skåre Willoch]

I’d take Luka over Dame.

 

[giorno]

I don't really understand where you are coming from really -

My point was about the comparison between Luka and Rose in his MVP season

Whatever else the others are arguing i'm not clear either. That Doncic is a top 10, possibly 5, player in the league right now, i guess. Which, hey, i agree with that

 

[WI_Red]

Yeah no one said that to be fair, I misread a post and thought that someone said it, but that was wrong.

oops. MY bad as well. I read your misread and my head exploded, leading to a loss of all further reading comprehension.

 

[Stacks]

I’d take Luka over Dame.

Yeah maybe. It's all fair debate. I am just throwing in other contenders who are doing/have done big things too. It all depends on what you value most. Only one of these guys has built a dynasty and been the best player in the NBA multiple times, 50–40–90 club and been a champion and that's Steph

 

[Skåre Willoch]

@Sarni
I’m not disagreeing with anyone, really. And I really like Dame, great player.

I see the arguments about all the usual suspects being better, especially when looking at the entire season. And that’s fine. Luka is 21, and I don’t think anybody seriously think he’s the best PG in the league just yet. But he’s 21, and that’s what makes him so unreal and maybe even unprecedented (he’s European, he’s a PG, not physically unique, etc.). I honestly don’t think there’s been a 21 year old performing at this level since LeBron.
I reckon he’s already _one of_ the very best players in the league, but ranking them all is a very difficult task, and probably wrong no matter what I end up with. And sure, I’ll probably rank him outside the top 5 as well.
But if Luka keeps going with this career trajectory, he’ll be pretty high up on the pyramid when all is said and done.

 

[SportingCP96]

Dirk is arguably the greatest European player to ever play in the NBA. If Doncic surpasses that he'll have done well for himself (and he'll be a top 20 player of all-time, probably).

In fairness too Luka he is the most talented player to ever come out of the Euro League.

What he was doing at 18 years of age literally dominating the euro league has never been seen before.

As I said before as long as he stays healthy he will pass Dirk.

 

[WI_Red]

@Sarni
I’m not disagreeing with anyone, really. And I really like Dame, great player.

I see the arguments about all the usual suspects being better, especially when looking at the entire season. And that’s fine. Luka is 21, and I don’t think anybody seriously think he’s the best PG in the league just yet. But he’s 21, and that’s what makes him so unreal and maybe even unprecedented (he’s European, he’s a PG, not physically unique, etc.). I honestly don’t think there’s been a 21 year old performing at this level since LeBron.
I reckon he’s already _one of_ the very best players in the league, but ranking them all is a very difficult task, and probably wrong no matter what I end up with. And sure, I’ll probably rank him outside the top 5 as well.
But if Luka keeps going with this career trajectory, he’ll be pretty high up on the pyramid when all is said and done.

Parker is really the only European PG who reached this kind of level (maybe Dragic...kinda??). I think Luka has the potential to be a transcendent player, but NBA history is littered with promising players who just didn't (Bias,Williams,Rose,Petrovic,etc.) due to injury/tragedy. Obviously I hope Luka goes on to become one of the best players ever because I love watching him play.

Also, is that a Bill Simmons Book of Basketball reference?

 

[SportingCP96]

Also a young Derrick Rose (MVP season Rose) was absurd.

Most athletically gifted PG ever. Think Russel Westbrook but much better.

We didn’t even get to see his prime either which is a true shame.