NBA 2018-2019

[charlton66]

The only game Golden State won was he one where mighty Steph was shite, errrr sorry he was ill. No evidence that they would have lost if they had Kawhi instead of him that game, it’s actually very unlikely.

Your hatred towards Golden State really blinds you to what is going on sometimes. Steph was not shite in game 2, it was the box and one game where for the only time in this series his team mates actually stepped up. He scored 23 points through 3 quarters and then the Raptors went to the box and one in the fourth after Klay got hurt leaving his team mates a chance to contribute and for the only time in the series they actually did.

As to Kawhi, you say there is no evidence to say the Dubs would have lost if the roles had been switched but since this is the game where the box and one was employed Steph's presence obviously had a huge impact. Either way we'll never know but that is what a discussion forum is for.

@Ayush_reddevil posted a nice little video of Steph's actual impact on the game.

Steph curry game 2

You are obviously biased and I am obviously biased while discussing this. It appears we are both now wasting our time.

 

[Fridge chutney]

As to Kawhi, his team mates have been great. Every one of them who play major minutes has pitched in it at some point. Yes he has had a great series but he's had a ton of help. I'll say this, if Steph and Kawhi switched teams this series would already be over and the Raptors would be World Champions. Curry is better offensively than Kawhi and the Dubs are already having trouble scoring. Switch them around and this one is done.

Curry is fantastic, one of the best ever, but this is not only factually questionable but completely disingenuous to Kawhi and the impact he's had on the Raptors. You take him out and they are a completely different team.

One thing is true, defensively the Raptors have done superbly well and that's allowed Kawhi to focus more on offensive output than his normal defensively imperious contributions.

 

[MJJ]

Your hatred towards Golden State really blinds you to what is going on sometimes. Steph was not shite in game 2, it was the box and one game where for the only time in this series his team mates actually stepped up. He scored 23 points through 3 quarters and then the Raptors went to the box and one in the fourth after Klay got hurt leaving his team mates a chance to contribute and for the only time in the series they actually did.

As to Kawhi, you say there is no evidence to say the Dubs would have lost if the roles had been switched but since this is the game where the box and one was employed Steph's presence obviously had a huge impact. Either way we'll never know but that is what a discussion forum is for.

@Ayush_reddevil posted a nice little video of Steph's actual impact on the game.


You are obviously biased and I am obviously biased while discussing this. It appears we are both now wasting our time.

Silent domination

 

[Eboue]

durant cleared to practice

 

[Sarni]

Your hatred towards Golden State really blinds you to what is going on sometimes. Steph was not shite in game 2, it was the box and one game where for the only time in this series his team mates actually stepped up. He scored 23 points through 3 quarters and then the Raptors went to the box and one in the fourth after Klay got hurt leaving his team mates a chance to contribute and for the only time in the series they actually did.

As to Kawhi, you say there is no evidence to say the Dubs would have lost if the roles had been switched but since this is the game where the box and one was employed Steph's presence obviously had a huge impact. Either way we'll never know but that is what a discussion forum is for.

@Ayush_reddevil posted a nice little video of Steph's actual impact on the game.


You are obviously biased and I am obviously biased while discussing this. It appears we are both now wasting our time.

It has nothing to do with my hatred. The only game Golden State won was the one on which Curry shot badly and scored only 23. And you come telling us that if Kawhi was in his place that game, GS would have lost. Toronto are 3-1 up and you come telling people that if you replaced their best player with Curry they would do better. That’s ridiculous fanboyism.

 

[charlton66]

It has nothing to do with my hatred. The only game Golden State won was the one on which Curry shot badly and scored only 23. And you come telling us that if Kawhi was in his place that game, GS would have lost. That’s ridiculous fanboyism.

I'm presuming you didn't watch the video.

 

[Sarni]

I'm presuming you didn't watch the video.

Besides make up your mind. Either he was terribly ill and couldn’t play well, or he played magnificent and if you replaced him with Kawhi Warriors would have been defeated.

They started doing box and one on him later in that game from what I remember, and at that point they actually almost caught up with Warriors. Didn’t Nick Nurse say it was Lowry who made that suggestion?

You are being ridiculous telling people that a team who are 3-1 up would have been better off replacing their best player with Curry. That’s just mental.

 

[charlton66]

Curry is fantastic, one of the best ever, but this is not only factually questionable but completely disingenuous to Kawhi and the impact he's had on the Raptors. You take him out and they are a completely different team.

One thing is true, defensively the Raptors have done superbly well and that's allowed Kawhi to focus more on offensive output than his normal defensively imperious contributions.

I don't mean to put down Kawhi. I really do think he has been the best player in these playoffs. All I'm saying is that because his team mates have performed really well that has put him in a position to be great. To illustrate this there have been 10 occasions during these playoffs that a Kawhi team mate has scored 15 points or more. For the Dubs Klay has done it 3 times and Draymond twice. Because the Raptors have been dominant defensively IMLTHO I don't think they would have missed Kawhi's defense that much. However the one game that the Dubs won was by only 4 points and I believe that the extra offense that Curry would provide over Kawhi would have been enough to turn that score around.

 

[Sarni]

Curry is fantastic, one of the best ever, but this is not only factually questionable but completely disingenuous to Kawhi and the impact he's had on the Raptors. You take him out and they are a completely different team.

One thing is true, defensively the Raptors have done superbly well and that's allowed Kawhi to focus more on offensive output than his normal defensively imperious contributions.

Exactly. That is not just Curry fanboyism but disrespectful to Kawhi who was been amazing in the Finals aside from Game 1 where Siakam was the one who won it for them.

 

[Sarni]

I don't mean to put down Kawhi. I really do think he has been the best player in these playoffs. All I'm saying is that because his team mates have performed really well that has put him in a position to be great. To illustrate this there have been 10 occasions during these playoffs that a Kawhi team mate has scored 15 points or more. For the Dubs Klay has done it 3 times and Draymond twice. Because the Raptors have been dominant defensively IMLTHO I don't think they would have missed Kawhi's defense that much. However the one game that the Dubs won was by only 4 points and I believe that the extra offense that Curry would provide over Kawhi would have been enough to turn that score around.

Kawhi scored 34 in that game. Curry scored 23.

 

[Sarni]

durant cleared to practice

I don’t expect him to be at 100% in game 5 but if they can win that one, this could go to 7 and he could be totally healthy by that time... this isn’t done yet.

 

[charlton66]

Besides make up your mind. Either he was terribly ill and couldn’t play well, or he played magnificent and if you replaced him with Kawhi Warriors would have been defeated.

They started doing box and one on him later in that game from what I remember, and at that point they actually almost caught up with Warriors. Didn’t Nick Nurse say it was Lowry who made that suggestion?

You are being ridiculous telling people that a team who are 3-1 up would have been better off replacing their best player with Curry. That’s just mental.

I said he was ill. I didn't say he played badly. He scored 23 points through 3 quarters and then came the box and one which his team mates took advantage of. As to replacing the Raptors best player with Curry (who also happens to be the Dubs best player) and actually improving, why should that be that much of a surprise. With the make up of both these teams currently, offense is more valuable to both than defense. Since Curry is a better offensive player than Leonard I don't know what the problem is.

 

[altodevil]

If sports has shown us anything lately, it's that the worst always happens. Warriors to win by 20+ tonight.

 

[charlton66]

Kawhi scored 34 in that game. Curry scored 23.

You keep quoting me game stats one against the other, what difference do they make? If they were on different teams they are irrelevant. Curry is known as a better offensive player than Leonard and the Dubs have struggled for offense. Take him away and they go from bad to worse. The Raptors on the other hand have shown they are really great defensively so if you take Kawhi's defense away it wouldn't hurt as badly. Hence the Raptors defense goes down slightly and their offense improves dramatically. The Dubs offense on the other hand takes a huge hit and even though the defense is better one does not offset the other. In other words because of the current make up of both teams with the swap Toronto gets better the Dubs get worse.

 

[Eboue]

If sports has shown us anything lately, it's that the worst always happens. Warriors to win by 20+ tonight.

i guarantee you the warriors wont win at all, let alone by 20, tonight

 

[Sarni]

I said he was ill. I didn't say he played badly. He scored 23 points through 3 quarters and then came the box and one which his team mates took advantage of. As to replacing the Raptors best player with Curry (who also happens to be the Dubs best player) and actually improving, why should that be that much of a surprise. Many people have Curry rated higher than Leonard as a player so I don't know what the problem is.

The problem is you are a Curry fanboy who can’t even see it when he has a below par game.

 

[Sarni]

You keep quoting me game stats one against the other, what difference do they make? If they were on different teams they are irrelevant. Curry is known as a better offensive player than Leonard and the Dubs have struggled for offense. Take him away and they go from bad to worse. The Raptors on the other hand have shown they are really great defensively so if you take Kawhi's defense away it wouldn't hurt as badly. Hence the Raptors defense goes down slightly and their offense improves dramatically. The Dubs offense on the other hand takes a huge hit and even though the defense is better one does not offset the other. In other words because of the current make up of both teams with the swap Toronto gets better the Dubs get worse.

So stats only count when they are in Curry’s favor for you. If they aren’t, stats don’t matter. It’s fine quoting his average for the series which is inflated by one game but wrong to quote a game in which he was apparently so great that if you replaced a 34-point Kawhi who played very well with him Raptors would have won.

 

[MJJ]

Kawhi Leonard leads all players in points, rebounds and steals. It’s the first time in playoff history since Larry Bird in 1984. He also leads the playoff in Offensive WinShares (3.1) and Defensive WinShares (1.6).

But replace kawhi with curry and he would have done a much better job.

 

[charlton66]

The problem is you are a Curry fanboy who can’t even see it when he has a below par game.

For arguments sake lets say he had a bad game. That still doesn't affect anything I said about switching teams and the Raptors sweeping. As I keep pointing out you keep quoting me in game figures. If they are on different teams they don't matter - they are irrelevant. The point is (once again) that because of the current make up both teams offense is more valuable than defense. With Curry the Raps offense gets better, the defense only takes a small hit because of all the other great defensive players Toronto has. The Dubs offense on the other hand takes a significant hit (you don't need to go box on 1 on Kawhi) and even though the defense improves one does not offset the other. So in other words because of the swap Toronto gets better the Dubs get worse. Please God say you now understand even if you don't agree.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

i guarantee you the warriors wont win at all, let alone by 20, tonight

 

[charlton66]

Kawhi Leonard leads all players in points, rebounds and steals. It’s the first time in playoff history since Larry Bird in 1984. He also leads the playoff in Offensive WinShares (3.1) and Defensive WinShares (1.6).

But replace kawhi with curry and he would have done a much better job.

In these finals Curry is averaging 32.8/5.0/5.5 and Kawhi is averaging 30.8/10.3/4.0.

However if they swap teams all you can do is generalize and stats don't matter (as I keep saying). Curry is better offensively than Kawhi, Kawhi is better defensively. As we've seen in these finals offense seems to be more valuable than defense especially to the Dubs who have struggled to score all the series. Take the best offensive weapon on the floor in Curry and have him swap teams is surely going to help the Raptors and hurt the Warriors.

 

[Sarni]

For arguments sake lets say he had a bad game. That still doesn't affect anything I said about switching teams and the Raptors sweeping. As I keep pointing out you keep quoting me in game figures. If they are on different teams they don't matter - they are irrelevant. The point is (once again) that because of the current make up both teams offense is more valuable than defense. With Curry the Raps offense gets better, the defense only takes a small hit because of all the other great defensive players Toronto has. The Dubs offense on the other hand takes a significant hit (you don't need to go box on 1 on Kawhi) and even though the defense improves one does not offset the other. So in other words because of the swap Toronto gets better the Dubs get worse. Please God say you now understand even if you don't agree.

I sort of understand but you are making a very weird and lopsided argument here. Raptors need Kawhi’s defense, before he went there they were Cavs punching bag year in year out. They wouldn’t even be close to Finals if you replaced him with Curry let alone 3-1 ahead.

 

[charlton66]

I sort of understand but you are making a very weird and lopsided argument here. Raptors need Kawhi’s defense, before he went there they were Cavs punching bag year in year out. They wouldn’t even be close to Finals if you replaced him with Curry let alone 3-1 ahead.

This is where we really do disagree then. I do agree that the Raptors were cannon fodder for LeBron up until Kawhi went there. However, it is my belief that if Curry had have gone to Toronto instead of Kawhi they would be even better. They don't need Kawhi's defense as much because they are already stacked with good defenders. Steph Curry's offense on the other hand would take them to another level. People underestimate the gravity he brings to the Warriors but that assumes when he does so a team mate can hit the open shot. This has been the death knell for these Warriors though because apart from Klay nobody can. However for Toronto he would open up the floor for everyone because as they have shown already the Raps have decent scoring in almost every position. He would take them from really, really good to really, really great.

 

[altodevil]

i guarantee you the warriors wont win at all, let alone by 20, tonight

disgusting space between games.

 

[Sarni]

This is where we really do disagree then. I do agree that the Raptors were cannon fodder for LeBron up until Kawhi went there. However, it is my belief that if Curry had have gone to Toronto instead of Kawhi they would be even better. They don't need Kawhi's defense as much because they are already stacked with good defenders. Steph Curry's offense on the other hand would take them to another level. People underestimate the gravity he brings to the Warriors but that assumes when he does so a team mate can hit the open shot. This has been the death knell for these Warriors though because apart from Klay nobody can. However for Toronto he would open up the floor for everyone because as they have shown already the Raps have decent scoring in almost every position. He would take them from really, really good to really, really great.

Okay. I think ‘Curry is so much much better than Kawhi’ is a strange conclusion to come out of these playoffs with but I can kind of understand why would be the one pitching it.

I think they would have been gone against Philadelphia, or at best against Bucks if Curry went there instead of Kawhi. Definitely nowhere near Finals.

 

[charlton66]

Okay. I think ‘Curry is so much much better than Kawhi’ is a strange conclusion to come out of these playoffs with but I can kind of understand why would be the one pitching it.

I think they would have been gone against Philadelphia, or at best against Bucks if Curry went there instead of Kawhi. Definitely nowhere near Finals.

I think you are putting words in my mouth a little bit here. I don't think Curry is so much better than Kawhi especially based on these playoffs (see quote below). To be honest I think a case could be made either way if you are looking at their careers as a whole.

I don't mean to put down Kawhi. I really do think he has been the best player in these playoffs. All I'm saying is that because his team mates have performed really well that has put him in a position to be great. To illustrate this there have been 10 occasions during these playoffs that a Kawhi team mate has scored 15 points or more. For the Dubs Klay has done it 3 times and Draymond twice. Because the Raptors have been dominant defensively IMLTHO I don't think they would have missed Kawhi's defense that much. However the one game that the Dubs won was by only 4 points and I believe that the extra offense that Curry would provide over Kawhi would have been enough to turn that score around.

What I am trying to say is that I think Curry is a better fit for the Raptors than Kawhi. They already have defense, Kawhi gives them more of the same. Where they've had trouble in these playoffs is on offense and Steph I think would help them with that.

As to the Raptors not making the finals if Kawhi was switched for Steph I obviously disagree with that or else we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 

[Sarni]

I think you are putting words in my mouth a little bit here. I don't think Curry is so much better than Kawhi especially based on these playoffs (see quote below). To be honest I think a case could be made either way if you are looking at their careers as a whole.
What I am trying to say is that I think Curry is a better fit for the Raptors than Kawhi. They already have defense, Kawhi gives them more of the same. Where they've had trouble in these playoffs is on offense and Steph I think would help them with that.

As to the Raptors not making the finals if Kawhi was switched for Steph I obviously disagree with that or else we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Again, to question Kawhi’s importance and say they would be so much better with Curry is something I very strongly disagree with too. I don’t think they have anywhere near the defense they have without Kawhi and it was super instrumental in getting them to where they are. Your assumption that they would still be the best or close to the best defensive teams in the league if they replaced Kawhi with Curry (who is a bad defender) is far fetched.

Kawhi was the reason Giannis did not destroy them in the semis. He was super important in containing Sixers when the going got tough too. He has basically stepped up every single time they needed him.

Honestly, not even slightest chance they make it past Sixers and Bucks without Kawhi. The only player from recent times you could have replaced him with and still be there was LeBron.

 

[Sarni]

Board man gets paid.

 

[Sarni]

Also I don’t like the talk about how poor Curry is for having to play with this group. This is largely the same team that won 73 and was beaten by LeBron and Cavs. He isn’t playing with Suns.

Kawhi gets his team to 3-1 up against favored Warriors and the reaction to that ‘they would have done much better with Curry instead’

 

[charlton66]

Also I don’t like the talk about how poor Curry is for having to play with this group. This is largely the same team that won 73 and was beaten by LeBron and Cavs. He isn’t playing with Suns.

Kawhi gets his team to 3-1 up against favored Warriors and the reaction to that ‘they would have done much, much better with Curry instead’

Okay, honest answer from you here. Do you think the Raptors would be leading 3-1 if Klay, Cousins, Looney and Iggy don't have injury problems? The reason why the Warriors were favored is that based on past performance even without KD the bookmakers expected them to win. If the Warriors were really playing at 100% then I think we would be seeing things differently. Yes the team is similar to the 73 win team, but it is the 73 win team on one leg. Kawhi has been brilliant but things have definitely fallen right for him and this Raptors team.

I need to add at this point IMLTHO injuries are no excuse. You play what's in front of you. If Toronto win they absolutely deserve it. Bad luck is just that - bad luck.

 

[Sarni]

Okay, honest answer from you here. Do you think the Raptors would be leading 3-1 if Klay, Cousins, Looney and Iggy don't have injury problems? The reason why the Warriors were favored is that based on past performance even without KD the bookmakers expected them to win. If the Warriors were really playing at 100% then I think we would be seeing things differently. Yes the team is similar to the 73 win team, but it is the 73 win team on one leg. Kawhi has been brilliant but things have definitely fallen right for him and this Raptors team.

I need to add at this point IMLTHO injuries are no excuse. You play what's in front of you. If Toronto win they absolutely deserve it. Bad luck is just that - bad luck.

Yes, I think Raptors are winning because they’ve been a better team and tried hard. Cousins was injured before the series, he hasn’t been right for most of the season anyway which was expected. Klay was out for 1 game, he returned for the next one and played well, Warriors still lost. I don’t think the situation is nearly as dramatic as GS fans make it out to be. Their big three has been healthy for the entire series bar one game for Klay. It’s definitely nowhere near what Cavs had to deal with in 2015. They’ve been beaten fair and square.

Kawhi isn’t fully healthy either btw.

Nice of you to say injuries are not an excuse after stating the paragraph before they are the reason Toronto are 3-1 up.

 

[Moby]

What I am trying to say is that I think Curry is a better fit for the Raptors than Kawhi. They already have defense,

You've reduced Kawhi's contribution to the Raptors to just 'added defense' which is massively off the mark.

 

[Moby]

Also I don’t like the talk about how poor Curry is for having to play with this group. This is largely the same team that won 73 and was beaten by LeBron and Cavs. He isn’t playing with Suns.

Kawhi gets his team to 3-1 up against favored Warriors and the reaction to that ‘they would have done much better with Curry instead’

There's always something to hide behind when Curry fails to win, despite always having multiple all stars in the starting line up. Close to being their own parody, at this point.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

durant cleared to practice

I'd still be surprised if he even plays.

Seems like a smokescreen from GS.

 

[charlton66]

Yes, I think Raptors are winning because they’ve been a better team and tried hard. Cousins was injured before the series, he hasn’t been right for most of the season anyway which was expected. Klay was out for 1 game, he returned for the next one and played well, Warriors still lost. I don’t think the situation is nearly as dramatic as GS fans make it out to be. Their big three has been healthy for the entire series bar one game for Klay. It’s definitely nowhere near what Cavs had to deal with in 2015. They’ve been beaten fair and square.

Kawhi isn’t fully healthy either btw.

Nice of you to say injuries are not an excuse after stating the paragraph before they are the reason Toronto are 3-1 up.

This is getting ridiculous now. Klay was only out for 1 game you say, but it was right after the Dubs had just won in Toronto, had regained home court advantage and had all the momentum. Toronto were feeling down after game 2. Klay's injury turned the whole series on its head.

Injuries are not an excuse. Just because the Raptors may be 3-1 up because of them is irrelevant. Like I said you play what's in front of you. Injuries are just part of the game.

 

[Sarni]

This is getting ridiculous now. Klay was only out for 1 game you say, but it was right after the Dubs had just won in Toronto, had regained home court advantage and had all the momentum. Toronto were feeling down after game 2. Klay's injury turned the whole series on its head.

1 game out of 4. Circumstances are irrelevant, they are down 2-1 in the other three games anyway. Klay being out in the other game did not affect that. He came back in the very next game which was almost a must-win and Warriors still lost, and their fans left 5 minutes before the game was done such was the extent of that defeat.

 

[charlton66]

1 game out of 4. Circumstances are irrelevant, they are down 2-1 in the other three games anyway. Klay being out in the other game did not affect that. He came back in the very next game which was almost a must-win and Warriors still lost, and their fans left 5 minutes before the game was done such was the extent of that defeat.

Do you actually believe what you write? "1 game out of 4. Circumstances are irrelevant...." That's just bull! Momentum is huge in sports. The Dubs were on a roll, then all of a sudden the rug is pulled from underneath them and the Raptors have fresh hope.

Let's just forget this. I'm getting tired of typing.

 

[Sarni]

Do you actually believe what you write? "1 game out of 4. Circumstances are irrelevant...." That's just bull! Momentum is huge in sports. The Dubs were on a roll, then all of a sudden the rug is pulled from underneath them and the Raptors have fresh hope.

Let's just forget this. I'm getting tired of typing.

Of course it’s irrelevant. He came back for the very next game, Warriors were up while Raptors were struggling at half and it still went Raptors way because Kawhi pulled them up.

I guarantee 100% if Siakam/Green/whoever was out for 1 game and Toronto lost that one you would be saying it doesn’t matter because Steph was at 93% anyway, Iggy was at 81% and if Looney was healthy it would be over in 4 anyway. Warriors always have an excuse. Had an excuse in 2016, will have an excuse now.

For what it’s worth Warriors weren’t really on ‘a roll’. They had a good quarter 3 in game 2, aside from that they’ve been outplayed by Raptors for the whole series. Klay or not.

 

[Moby]

My favourite moment from Lebron's dick-daddying of Curry that series. Proper 'what the feck do you think you are doing kid'.

 

[charlton66]

My favourite moment from Lebron's dick-daddying of Curry that series. Proper 'what the feck do you think you are doing kid'.

I suppose Steph will never get that 3-1 out of his head.

Dubs 3 titles - Cavs 1 title.