Nani, Kagawa and Hernandez

Siorac said:
That's true.

But Ashley Young gets on everyone's tits at the moment and Kagawa must be a better option than him. If he completes one good through ball in a game - and he always does as much - he'll have already won that particular contest.
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I haven't given up on Valencia, let's not forget how good he was midweek. I think there's still room on the right, especially if we get Rafael back, and it's Nani who'll be on the left.

Young is a tremendous waste of space who should be nowhere near the team, ever.
 
What really irks me is how some are saying United will bounce back. We always do, but will we actually start playing like we give a feck?
Young might, but I feel it would never be enough, he's like a Donkey on the pitch, who pisses off everyone around him. Moyes seems to love him, and I haven't a clue why.

Valencia had an iffy game, but he's still returning to form. Nani , Kagawa and Hernandez have yet to start and Young just fecks up over and over and gets more game time? feck sake.
 
Jaybezia said:
No sorry, when saying good performances on the wing, I think its quite obvious the National Team doesn't count...

And for those of us that are sane, mind sharing the reason?
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I'm not sure what's so hard to comprehend here, we judge him based on performances for us, not his national team, where he was used in a far different matter on the left than he'd likely be used here.
 
Cina said:
I'm not sure what's so hard to comprehend here, we judge him based on performances for us, not his national team, where he was used in a far different matter on the left than he'd likely be used here.
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Your comment was that he hadn't played on the wings, I corrected that. Why would we use him in a different manner than he is used by his NT? I'm curious, I haven't seen a hell of a lot of Jap matches, but heard he really excels on the left for them... What's so different about his job on that LW to what it would be on our LW..
 
1) I think starting Kagawa would have been worse. In Bayern match he did have a couple of good passes, but his workrate and physicality were nowhere the required levels. He would have struggled against City's midfield.
2) I'd dont disagree with starting Young, but he reallys should have been subbed out for Nani.
3) Moyes might have tthough Wellbeck may have been a better option given his adaptability to wide play if needed at a later stage. It's one of the gambles that went against him this match. In hindsight Rooney operating off Hernandez might have been a better option.

In reality a team has no chance when the whole midfield goes awol but just gets worse when the defence follows them out. I'd put all 4 goals as poor defence organization and man marking. Letting Kolarov run free, Nasri and Aguero unmarked in the box, it was just sheer incompetency in our defence.
 
Absolute Fruit Cake said:
1) I think starting Kagawa would have been worse. In Bayern match he did have a couple of good passes, but his workrate and physicality were nowhere the required levels. He would have struggled against City's midfield.
2) I'd dont disagree with starting Young, but he reallys should have been subbed out for Nani.
3) Moyes might have tthough Wellbeck may have been a better option given his adaptability to wide play if needed at a later stage. It's one of the gambles that went against him this match. In hindsight Rooney operating off Hernandez might have been a better option.

In reality a team has no chance when the whole midfield goes awol but just gets worse when the defence follows them out. I'd put all 4 goals as poor defence organization and man marking. Letting Kolarov run free, Nasri and Aguero unmarked in the box, it was just sheer incompetency in our defence.
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Bayer.
 
Jaybezia said:
Your comment was that he hadn't played on the wings, I corrected that. Why would we use him in a different manner than he is used by his NT? I'm curious, I haven't seen a hell of a lot of Jap matches, but heard he really excels on the left for them... What's so different about his job on that LW to what it would be on our LW..
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Ummm, was it? Was it really?
 
Castia said:
I just can't understand it, I don't even know what to say. We have better players than Young yet he starts almost every game when he's fit it's bizarre.
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Yes fair enough but at least give the guy a run in the team, maybe even in his preferred position? We have seen what he can do at Dortmund but can't expect him to integrate into the team if he's played out once in a while and even then, it's out on the left. Any player will find it nearly impossible to break in to the team with those conditions...
 
Cina said:
Ummm, was it? Was it really?
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Point taken, you didn't state he hadn't, you said that 'he hasn't had any good performances from the wings' either way it's still wrong, as I pointed you to his NT and explained he has performed well there.

I'm still waiting for you to tell me why playing on the LW for his NT 'doesn't count', I'm not trying to condescend you, I'm genuinely puzzled why you think the LW role (Which he plays well for Japan) would be immensely different (In terms of responsibilities/ role in the formation) to the LW on the Manchester United line up..

Again, I haven't seen a lot of Japan, so it may be there is an answer to this question...
 
Jaybezia said:
Point taken, you didn't state he hadn't, you said that 'he hasn't had any good performances from the wings' either way it's still wrong, as I pointed you to his NT and explained he has performed well there.

I'm still waiting for you to tell me why playing on the LW for his NT 'doesn't count', I'm not trying to condescend you, I'm genuinely puzzled why you think the LW role (Which he plays well for Japan) would be immensely different (In terms of responsibilities/ role in the formation) to the LW on the Manchester United line up..

Again, I haven't seen a lot of Japan, so it may be there is an answer to this question...
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:lol: What is wrong with you? That's around the tenth time you've completely fabricated something I said. he's had no good performances on the wings for us, I never mentioned his national team.

It doesn't count because it wasn't for the club that people want him on the left wing for, surely that's obvious?
 
Cina said:
:lol: What is wrong with you? That's around the tenth time you've completely fabricated something I said. he's had no good performances on the wings for us, I never mentioned his national team.

It doesn't count because it wasn't for the club that people want him on the left wing for, surely that's obvious?
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The thing about Kagawa here is that people want him to displace our wingers, but he's not even a winger, he's a #10 who has underwhelmed so far when used in his best position and I can't remember any good performances from him on the left at all.
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If you were able to read properly, we wouldn't have this problem, I said that you stated 'he hasn't had any good performances on the wing (NOT MENTIONING ANY TEAM)' Which is true, to which I pointed out, he plays there for his NT, but ignore the NT comment completely, and you are still wrong as you may have meant to include 'for his team', but the above quote clearly shows you are wrong. So I ask, what is wrong with you?

It doesn't count as it wasn't for the right club? Really? Are you that obtuse? The LW of the pitch is the LW of the pitch. Can you please now tell me how the LW differs (In terms of roles/responsibilities or whatever makes it so unattached to a 'United Lw') From a Manchester United LW?
 
Jaybezia said:
If you were able to read properly, we wouldn't have this problem, I said that you stated 'he hasn't had any good performances on the wing (NOT MENTIONING ANY TEAM)' Which is true, to which I pointed out, he plays there for his NT, but ignore the NT comment completely, and you are still wrong as you may have meant to include 'for his team', but the above quote clearly shows you are wrong. So I ask, what is wrong with you?

It doesn't count as it wasn't for the right club? Really? Are you that obtuse? The LW of the pitch is the LW of the pitch. Can you please now tell me how the LW differs (In terms of roles/responsibilities or whatever makes it so unattached to a 'United Lw') From a Manchester United LW?
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Yes jaybezia, if I was the one able to read properly, not you, not you who somehow managed to make up that I said he's never played on the left wing. Nope.

Not only that, you say you've barely even seen him play for Japan, even more bizarre, how the feck do you know how good he was there for them then?

Mata and Silva both play on the "wings" for their clubs, do they play the same role that Young/Nani do on the left wing for us? No. Very few teams do use wingers like we use nowadays, Japan included, that's why it seems so irrelevant to the whole situation. Kagawa isn't a winger, when he plays left he basically ends up drifting in centrally for around 90% of the game anyway, that's what he's like for Japan. That's why Japan can't be used to judge whether he'd work on the wing here, especially as every time he's played on the wing here he's been pretty poor.

What is wrong with me? Are you a fecking psychiatrist?
 
Cina said:
Yes jaybezia, if I was the one able to read properly, not you, not you who somehow managed to make up that I said he's never played on the left wing. Nope.

Not only that, you say you've barely even seen him play for Japan, even more bizarre, how the feck do you know how good he was there for them then?

Mata and Silva both play on the "wings" for their clubs, do they play the same role that Young/Nani do on the left wing for us? No. Very few teams do use wingers like we use nowadays, Japan included, that's why it seems so irrelevant to the whole situation. Kagawa isn't a winger, when he plays left he basically ends up drifting in centrally for around 90% of the game anyway, that's what he's like for Japan. That's why Japan can't be used to judge whether he'd work on the wing here, especially as every time he's played on the wing here he's been pretty poor.

What is wrong with me? Are you a fecking psychiatrist?
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:lol: I misquoted you once, as I agreed I did, you have also misquoted yourself saying that you include 'at our club' when you didn't, so we both we were wrong, but I'm not arrogant or pompous enough to try and hide it.

How the feck do I possibly know he played well for Japan if I hadn't seen many games? I'm going to introduce to the concept of 'people', you see, they do this talking thing and let me know their thoughts, also player rating reports, so hopefully you can understand that.

At last! An answer after all this, that if you weren't so worried about Anti-debating (Where you tail off on an insignificant part to prove something tiny). That's a good answer and makes a lot of sense, however I don't see why we can't have the RW as the 'crossing' winger and the LW as a player who cuts inside rather than goes to the byline, can't exactly say our deadball/ crossing players are making a good reason for him not to start LW..
 
Jaybezia said:
:lol: I misquoted you once, as I agreed I did, you have also misquoted yourself saying that you include 'at our club' when you didn't, so we both we were wrong, but I'm not arrogant or pompous enough to try and hide it.

How the feck do I possibly know he played well for Japan if I hadn't seen many games? I'm going to introduce to the concept of 'people', you see, they do this talking thing and let me know their thoughts, also player rating reports, so hopefully you can understand that.

At last! An answer after all this, that if you weren't so worried about Anti-debating (Where you tail off on an insignificant part to prove something tiny). That's a good answer and makes a lot of sense, however I don't see why we can't have the RW as the 'crossing' winger and the LW as a player who cuts inside rather than goes to the byline, can't exactly say our deadball/ crossing players are making a good reason for him not to start LW..
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Where did I say that? Where? Quote it. I never mentioned the club but I never mentioned the national team either, I also didn't deny anything, I just said it doesn't count, which I don't think it does, because it wasn't for our club and he was as much a "winger" for them as Mata and Silva are. I assumed anyone who'd seen Japan (i.e. you, cause you brought it up) who also share that opinion.

What are you even arguing? You keep telling me I'm wrong about things I never actually said or tried to claim I was right on, and apparently you're judging my mental health too.
 
Cina said:
Yes jaybezia, if I was the one able to read properly, not you, not you who somehow managed to make up that I said he's never played on the left wing. Nope.

Not only that, you say you've barely even seen him play for Japan, even more bizarre, how the feck do you know how good he was there for them then?

Mata and Silva both play on the "wings" for their clubs, do they play the same role that Young/Nani do on the left wing for us? No. Very few teams do use wingers like we use nowadays, Japan included, that's why it seems so irrelevant to the whole situation. Kagawa isn't a winger, when he plays left he basically ends up drifting in centrally for around 90% of the game anyway, that's what he's like for Japan. That's why Japan can't be used to judge whether he'd work on the wing here, especially as every time he's played on the wing here he's been pretty poor.

What is wrong with me? Are you a fecking psychiatrist?
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But is it set in stone that we MUST play with traditional wingers?

We play Welbeck wide as well and he drifts inside all the time. Kagawa has all the tools to do the same job as a Mata or a Silva can do starting from the left.
 
Siorac said:
But is it set in stone that we MUST play with traditional wingers?

We play Welbeck wide as well and he drifts inside all the time. Kagawa has all the tools to do the same job as a Mata or a Silva can do starting from the left.
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Not at all, my original point was that Kagawa hasn't done anything to justify the idea of being an automatic first choice on the left for us, I think that's a fair point. He still has it all to prove there.
 
Cina said:
Not at all, my original point was that Kagawa hasn't done anything to justify the idea of being an automatic first choice on the left for us, I think that's a fair point. He still has it all to prove there.
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Yes. I think I've already agreed with that at one point in this thread? He deserves a chance to prove himself though, it's not like his rivals for the position are tearing teams apart.
 
Siorac said:
Yes. I think I've already agreed with that at one point in this thread? He deserves a chance to prove himself though, it's not like his rivals for the position are tearing teams apart.
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Yeah, Young and Valencia have had far more time this season and last season to make their claim and neither have done enough and personally I don't even think the defensive argument for them works anymore. Kagawa hasn't shone from the left yet but should be given a run as well as Nani to see if he can do better than Young/Giggs there and Valencia on the other side.

Plus he had the option of going 433 yest with either kagawa/clev in the middle but he made the choice to go with those two despite knowing their form was shaky and he was bringing in Welbeck who also doesn't offer a huge amount individually in attack. It's not all his fault as they did perform well below expectations and you can somewhat argue he's still not been able to see Nani/Kagawa much but that card is running out as he's had plenty of time to get to know them even if its not from direct competitive games he's seen.

Either way after those performances whether its bringing in a 3rd midfielder and going for a 3, or letting the likes of Nani/Kagawa get a run Moyes has to change something. 3 tough games and 3 well below expectations from Young and Valencia albeit Valencia did do a great shift defensively against Chelsea. If he wants to see his other options than he has to play them.
 
For me, whether Kagawa and/or Nani would have done better is irrelevant - its that we havent even TRIED it. You have two wingers who are performing consistently badly, and you have 2 (well...1.5, Kagawa isnt a natural wide player) who are essentially unknown quantities this season. Logic would dictate that you at least give the latter two a chance (see Janujaz for an example) and one of two things will happen;
1) They play well, everyone is happy.
2) They play poorly, the fans/players etc are no longer so angry about not playing them in the first place, because at least they have been given a chance.

You cannot accurately assess the likes of Nani based on 20 minutes this season and a few scattered appearances last season. Moyes sees them in training every day so he will have an idea of their respective merits but feck me, Nani must literally just be sunbathing in his deckchair at Carrington for Valencia to consistently get selected regardless of performance.

If it is fitness related then we should at least have thrown them on with 30 minutes to go, the game was already lost and we could at least gauge their form/performance/fitness. As it was, we brought on Cleverley of all people, for Ashley Young, who I have never rated but again has at least been known to get the odd goal or win a penalty (even if he is a serial diver).

Hernandez is in a slightly different boat as he isnt so much of an unknown quantity, and yet he cant get a sniff in even when Welbeck is tripping over the ball.

When we lined up yesterday with Welbeck, Valencia, Rooney and Young, the first thing I said was "there is no actually threat in that lineup". Who is going to score? Who is going to create? Other than Rooney, nobody there springs to mind, and we do not (and should not) rely on Carrick/Fellaini for the goals as their role is to anchor the midfield and ALLOW the front four more freedom in attack.

With RVP (who was injured admittedly), Hernandez and Nani, you have players capable of producing a goal, whether by scoring it themselves or creating one for another player. Why we would be leaving two of those on the bench and having Rooney as the sole goal threat, I have no idea.

Young and Valencia have both been given huge amounts of gametime and, barring the odd match here and there, have failed to perform - we havent even scored a goal from open play in a month in the league FFS. Nani and Kagawa may not have done anything to justify being automatic first names on the teamsheet, but then they havent been given a chance to do so yet. And getting an occasional sub appearance or match once every couple of months isnt "giving them a chance". What they should be getting is the same opportunity that Young and Valencia have had, which is to be played consistently week in week out, to establish some rythm and form.

When we signed Fellaini I was actually excited by the fact that we could line up with RVP, Rooney, Kagawa and Nani, with Carrick and Fellaini holding. As it stands though, my motivation and enthusiasm for Moyes and his team is going drastically downhill.
 
I think at least two of them will leave next Summer. Kagawa will probably get another offer from Dortmund and he should definitely give it a thought, Hernandez could probably start for quite a few top clubs and he cannot afford to spend the following 2-3 years barely playing any football. With Nani it could go either way, they won't all leave but I'll be very surprised if all 3 are still here at the start of next season.
 
Sarni said:
I think at least two of them will leave next Summer. Kagawa will probably get another offer from Dortmund and he should definitely give it a thought, Hernandez could probably start for quite a few top clubs and he cannot afford to spend the following 2-3 years barely playing any football. With Nani it could go either way, they won't all leave but I'll be very surprised if all 3 are still here at the start of next season.
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I'll be furious is Kagawa leaves without being given a proper run in the team. Would be such a waste of talent.
 
Any defender in world football would rather face Young or Valencia over Nani. You can talk about consistency this and that, decision making etc but Nani is our best dribbler, one of our fastest players, best close control, one of the best long shots and probably the best finisher after Rooney and RVP. Yes he was shit last year because of contract issues and INJURIES.

You have to take the good with the bad with Nani. The good (goals, assists, beating players) far outweighs the bad (poor decision making, selfish at times)

A fit Nani should start every big game for United. End of. He is that good. He can beat players with ease. Oh and also, he does track back. Maybe not like Welbeck and Valencia, but he does put in a defensive shift as well.

All hail the instant savior of this season, Nani.
 
The match fitness excuse is a poor one because you only get match fitness by playing games. It isn't rocket science. And the fact is that Young didn't have a preseason yet is starting several of our games. Young was thrown in to Chelsea away last season and did well despite it being his first game after a long injury lay-off. Nani hadn't played much before the CL home game against Madrid and he was probably our best player. Young is continuously being played now despite being completely out of form and that makes no sense.
 
I'd be pissed off any of them left without getting the runs in the team like Valencia has got
 
I haven't read through this thread so not sure if it has been mentioned but I would add Evans to this list, I don't remember him having a kick this season and I think he has been our best CB for the last 2 seasons, Vidic & Rio are both going to struggle to be playing 2or 3 times a week so I really don't understand why he has yet to play.
 
Cina said:
Not at all, my original point was that Kagawa hasn't done anything to justify the idea of being an automatic first choice on the left for us, I think that's a fair point. He still has it all to prove there.
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I agree with this, but only if it's a choice between whether to start Nani or Kagawa left.

The difference is quite shocking when you compare Kagawa with Young or Welbeck on the left. Alot of people were down on Kagawa's performance against Leverkusen, but in that game he created 2 chances and nearly scored one himself. If Young or Welbeck were to do the same, we'd be saying they had a good game.
 
This all boils down to rotation, or a lack thereof. When we appointed Moyes I said that one of the things he was going to have to learn fast was the art of rotation, because he has never had such a big squad with quality players running through it.

Everton seemed to always have as slow start and finish strong or a good start and fall off the pace come the end of the season because pretty much the same XI played every game over the season and they couldn't sustain that intensity for an entire season.

Vidic and Rio are players who due to their previous injuries shouldn't be playing every three days. Evans is or was first choice last season and should be trusted yet hasn't gotten a sniff. It's all well and good having a settled back two but not when they'll be off the pace from playing more successive games than they have in years.

Hernandez showed last season that when we needed him he could supply the goals. I can make similar cases for several other players but I just think now that the 'tougher' games (on paper at least) are over, we need to use the full squad more. Despite what people think, Fergie didn't just tinker to be annoying or contrary, he did it with purpose, even if we didn't always see the long term vision he had.
 
Evans not playing at all is a worry too, hasn't he been fit almost all the time so far?
 
Sarni said:
Evans not playing at all is a worry too, hasn't he been fit almost all the time so far?
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Yeah, pretty much other than perhaps one or two games at the start. I understand that Moyes wanted to pick the 'strongest and most dependable' team for the tough games at the start of the season, but Crystal Palace and Bayer Leverkusen at Old Trafford were perfect opportunities to play the likes of Evans (and Nani for the Palace game). They're not going to get match fit sitting on the bench.

Hopefully he doesn't 'prioritize' the League Cup purely because it's Liverpool. Sure, we all want to win that game... But I'd rather see the likes of Evans, Cleverley, Anderson, Nani, Kagawa, and Hernandez get long amounts of time on the pitch.
 
Sarni said:
Evans not playing at all is a worry too, hasn't he been fit almost all the time so far?
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Its not a worry. Moyes said he wanted his most dependable and experienced CB pairing without rotation as the fixtures were very tough and he hadnt got the time work with them long enough to try new things.
 
Sarni said:
Evans not playing at all is a worry too, hasn't he been fit almost all the time so far?
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Aye that is not one I get, especially when he's played so well for us for the past season or so and we have an ageing centre back pairing who have had a recent history of injuries. At home against a newly promoted side was an ideal opportunity to start him and it's not like he is inexperienced in big games either.
 
I can understand why Hernandez is not playing as we have 3 better alternatives IMO.
Nani and Kagawa should be starting more games, preferably with Kagawa in a central position...
 
Oldham said:
I can understand why Hernandez is not playing as we have 3 better alternatives IMO.
Nani and Kagawa should be starting more games, preferably with Kagawa in a central position...
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Hernandez is a better player than Welbeck, and has proven in the past that he compliments Rooney better than him too.
 
Oh and J. Evans should also be getting more games. Think he, Rio and Vidic should rotate... Rio needs the rest IMO.
 
Cina said:
Hernandez is a better player than Welbeck, and has proven in the past that he compliments Rooney better than him too.
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Well, I disagree. I think there's more to Welbecks game than Hernandez. But I understand why many would prefer Hernandez as he's a fantastic finisher..
 
Oldham said:
Well, I disagree. I think there's more to Welbecks game than Hernandez. But I understand why many would prefer Hernandez as he's a fantastic finisher..
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As a striker there isn't a comparison at the moment, Hernandez is lethal, sod the 'rest of the game', we haven't scored from open play, I think Hernandez is needed...
 
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