Hes a local lad. Simples
Nani, Kagawa and Hernandez
- Thread starter Walrus
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Hes a local lad. Simples
I actually thought very much was made of a quite rigid showing against Leverkusen. The three first goals was a result of horrible mistakes by the linesman, their defender and their keeper and the last one was a counter attack when they went for the equalizer. Even with the supposedly solid base of Fellaini and Carrick we let in two soft goals.
The result covered up what was a somewhat unconvincing performance. Today we got to the acid test and we saw how that went.
Now we've put ourselves in a position where we have to go on a run of 6-7 wins in a row. It shouldn't have come to this.
Well I thought there was potential there with the right attackers, I actually thought today was probably the lease suited attack we could have put out from the senior attackers in terms of the types of midfielders and types of attackers.
We shouldn't forget that City and Chelsea have both dropped points as well and actually worse points drops that we have. Next run of games is a chance for Moyes to properly establish how he wants to play. Everyone is fit now more or less.
Yup, it's a chance for Moyes but it's also an absolute necessarity.
A win against Chelsea and a draw or win against Liverpool and a loss here would be written off as a one-off, now we fecking need to win every single one of those so-called easy matches, against sides that sense we're there for the taking.
True but like I said in those games we were unlucky to be missing Nani and Kagawa for both, at least in terms of sharpness and missing Rooney for one of them. I would say today is only the truly poor result, drawing to Chelsea in the context of the game was reasonable as was loosing to liverpool who have had our number in recent times. Plus you can definitely point the finger at some players in those games.
Beforehand, a draw at Chelsea would be acceptable.
But the way Mourinho flagged defeat and threw on Mikel et all, coupled with the fact we never went for it, annoyed me immensely. I thought that was an obvious win which would've dented the Chelsea aura of invincibility before building momentum. Instead Everton did that.
Yep but Mou didn't park the bus against Everton and they should have won that game anyway. Had both nani and kagawa been fully fit things might have been very different.
To be honest it was more an issue of attitude as opposed to personnel. We were far too cautious the last half an hour.
There's talk of Kagawa not really looking a nailed on first team player currently but I don't think that's the main issue. He may not justify an automatic selection, but he's far more likely to encourage better football than the players that are being picked ahead of him. We are dreadfully lacking in style at the moment, so the natural solution is to go for a more technically gifted line up.
If we're ever going to see the best of Kagawa we have to give him some time on the pitch, particularly if we're asking him adapt his game to a starting position on the left flank. I'm convinced Nani will become a fixture on the wing as the season goes on.
Unlike say, Ashley Young?
David Moyes prefers the Alan Stubbs kinda players. He's a mid table manager who likes mid table players. Cue Ashley Young...
Yeah, it's funny how people are saying that Kagawa or Nani aren't doing anything amazing to show they deserve to start, but what are Young and Valencia doing to keep their spots? Valencia only had his first good game in about a year against Leverkusen, although he hasn't been that shit really this season and I don't mind him starting right now. Young though is a different story. He's been shite every game and is probably more deserving to play in the reserves than the first team. Our play instantly improved every game where he got subbed off this season.
The players mentioned have all have had disrupted preseasons whether being injured or in the confederation cup. Because of the tough nature of the opening fixtures, it appears Moyes wants players who are near 100% match fit/sharp to play. So I'll still give the manager the benefit of the doubt regarding why these player have hardly played. In fact I'd expect a similar line up against Liverpool. After that United have a run of easier fixtures(apart Shakh'r Donetsk away) up to the beginning of November from where I'd expect Moyes to ease these players in, judging by his comments after the match. I get the feeling Moyes feels with the fixture list, that his hands were tied regarding selection, hence why he was so critical of the opening fixture list. In the coming weeks he will not have that to fall back on.
But the what have Valencia and young done to start week after week after week. I'm pretty sure that if we gave kagawa the same patient treatment (as opposed to leaving him out after a hat trick) he'd deliver very well. But it seems our more technical players don't get the same patience that those two do, despite being capable of delivering more as a result. It's as if we have faith in the wrong players.
If these players aren't fit, there is no obligation to play shit ones like Young. I'd have prefered an ultra defensive set up with Rooney up top on his own and Welbeck on the left. A tough start to the season indeed but give yourself some chances of avoiding losing this match.
In the case of Kagawa, and less so Nani, he's become a world class, indispensable player simply through not playing. People are acting as though his presence would've made a huge difference at the start of this season. What is this being based on?
The reality is that Kagawa's United career has been underwhelming thus far, and no matter how much people wish to frame it as Moyes not fancying him, the truth is that injuries have been the major contributing factor. That and the fact that Kagawa's been quite peripheral in the majority of his outings.
And this idea that he's a natural number 10 and so should just be given that role gets on my tits. He's nowhere near good enough to justify dropping the likes of Rooney or van Persie. As it happens, there's a clear opportunity for him to get into the side from the left flank - yes, it may not be idea, but it's a starting berth (and a position that he plays for Japan, if I'm not mistaken). Why is it good enough for more established players like Cazorla or Silva, but not Kagawa?
I've never heard so many excuses offered for a player that has offered so little in a United shirt.
Same shit with Nani. Yes, he's got fantastic ability - far in excess of what Young or Valencia have in their locker - but the truth is that he hasn't consistently applied his skills for a good while now. Despite what some may like to portray, it's not as though Nani has produced great performances and then been unfairly dropped - he's been part of the band of underperforming wingers.
The first choices - Young and Valencia - clearly haven't been good, but let's not pretend the more fashionable Kagawa and Nani have been either. These flair players need to start taking some responsibility - if they put in the performances, they'll play. Yes, their chances may have been limited this season, but the season starts in earnest now - we have a lot of winnable league games, the COC and the CL coming up, and these lads will get a chance. Let's not have any excuses for them if they fail to perform.
The reality is that Kagawa's United career has been underwhelming thus far, and no matter how much people wish to frame it as Moyes not fancying him, the truth is that injuries have been the major contributing factor. That and the fact that Kagawa's been quite peripheral in the majority of his outings.
And this idea that he's a natural number 10 and so should just be given that role gets on my tits. He's nowhere near good enough to justify dropping the likes of Rooney or van Persie. As it happens, there's a clear opportunity for him to get into the side from the left flank - yes, it may not be idea, but it's a starting berth (and a position that he plays for Japan, if I'm not mistaken). Why is it good enough for more established players like Cazorla or Silva, but not Kagawa?
I've never heard so many excuses offered for a player that has offered so little in a United shirt.
Same shit with Nani. Yes, he's got fantastic ability - far in excess of what Young or Valencia have in their locker - but the truth is that he hasn't consistently applied his skills for a good while now. Despite what some may like to portray, it's not as though Nani has produced great performances and then been unfairly dropped - he's been part of the band of underperforming wingers.
The first choices - Young and Valencia - clearly haven't been good, but let's not pretend the more fashionable Kagawa and Nani have been either. These flair players need to start taking some responsibility - if they put in the performances, they'll play. Yes, their chances may have been limited this season, but the season starts in earnest now - we have a lot of winnable league games, the COC and the CL coming up, and these lads will get a chance. Let's not have any excuses for them if they fail to perform.
What's your point exactly fm? We keep playing Valencia and Young as if they're Rooney and Rvp, despite them being terrible, and kagawa and nani can't displace them because they aren't amazing when they play? Aren't you getting how people find that strange?
Whether Kagawa, Nani and Januzaj put in the performances or not, at least United have an easier run of fixtures for them to be eased in and so there is a lot more margin for error for Moyes.
Kagawa hasn't been amazing but for us but he was much better than Valencia last season. He kept the ball well, had sexy moments of skill and gave a good goal return. Yet, it's Valencia who starts every fecking game. It's like he's our Rvp of wide areas.
Moyes has offered an explanation as to why the likes of Nani and Kagawa haven't had many opportunities - the difficulty of the fixture list has meant he's not had as much latitude to look at different players. Essentially, it seems to me that Young and Valencia were more advanced in terms of their fitness and so got the nod at the start of the season. Perhaps this was overly conservative by Moyes, but there's no guarantee that things would've panned out differently had Nani and Kagawa featured instead.
The point I'm trying to make is, as poor as Valencia and Young have been, Nani and Kagawa haven't exactly made compelling cases for themselves. Look at Rooney - he's been rushed back from injury and fast-tracked into the side. You are afforded that treatment when you're a proven, consistent performer. Neither Nani or Kagawa are.
But with the comparatively easy run of fixtures we now have, I suspect they'll both get a fair crack of the whip.
The notion that Moyes is being unfair to the likes of Nani and Kagawa is a nonsense, in my opinion. Why has he given Nani a long term deal if he has an irrational dislike of him?
Agreed. Nani and Kagawa will get chances.
Januzaj has been given a very fair amount of minutes under Moyes so far.
It's a tactical thing though Amol.
Fact is, all of our wingers have been pretty shoddy for a while, but it's important for the team to retain a decent element of width. It creates space for our central players to operate in. In that context, Valencia has probably been the best bet.
If we drop all our wingers, I guarantee we'll be having a debate about how narrow our play is and how we're struggling to open teams up.
Specific tactics are important and should be implemented only if they help you. There's no point in playing players who are performing poorly just for the sake of them fitting a tactic irrespective of them actually doing what they're supposed to do as part of the tactic. Don't you agree? What's the point of playing a touchline hugging winger who can't even get crosses in? Or who when he does, seems to wack them into random areas? And if his job is simply to hug the touchline (firstly thats crazy) but if it is, then lets not assume others if told cant do that. Januzaj is not what youd call a proper winger, but the other day he kept our width well. Of course he did roam at times, but I cant see why variety is a bad thing.
We dont need to drop all our wingers. Noones saying that. People are simply saying look at other options. They can do better, give them a chance. You cant keep playing the same non performing players all the time. It isnt even fair on the others.
Nothing crazy about hugging the touchline when in possession, its what all teams that use width should be doing. Width isnt all about being able to get crosses in. Width stretches defences and allows central midfielders more space and time to pick out passes. So wide players can attack from wide but also can create space for central midfielders to do their magic. Double bonus with using width when in possession.
Cutting in becomes a function of wide defenders being pulled wide and creating spaces inside to cut into.
There is a distinct lack of imagination on these forums with people spending too much time on zonalmarking.net and not enough time understanding what goes on at the training ground and why.
So they were more ahead in terms of fitness but does that mean they should be ahead in terms of pecking order? I'd rather not play these super fit players if they are going to keep playing like they did last night. I mean is Nani so unfit that he cant even come on at HT when things are going tits up? And btw, why the hell is he so unfit, hes been playing lots international games. Same with Kagawa. The latter was a bit quiet against Crystal Palace but he didnt look really unfit or anything to me. And to be honest, looking at Valencia and Young yesterday, they didnt look unfit, they actually injured
And of course theres no guarantee of things being different if Nani and Kagawa played instead. But it's pretty likely given how horrible the other two were. If we want guarantees then well never get it. In that case we might as well stick with these two for life!
Understand the context of posts before going off on a strange rant. I asked if his role was "simply to hug the touchline" with simply being stressed upon. The point was that if Valencia isn't going to offer anything going forward, isn't going to put decent crosses in and if his ONLY purpose is to stay out wide, then there are others who can do it if told. And I disagree that someone should solely for that purpose despite playing poorly. It's like saying Rio should play because hes a ball playing defender despite making mistakes in every game (hypotehtically). It's silly. Tactics should benefit the team, not hurt it because the guy playing cant do it justice.
Stack pretty much summed up my thoughts on the width debate. Having someone stationed out there can be of benefit to our central players in terms of creating space or having an out ball. Our wingers' crossing a completely separate issue.
I think it's easy in hindsight to say Moyes made a mistake in persisting with Young and Valencia throughout this tough run, but as I keep saying, there are no guarantees that Kagawa and Nani would've fared any better. It's easy to say Moyes made a mistake now - we're all world class managers after the event - but judgment should really be reserved for a month or so. Let's have a look at where we stand in all competitions after we've played Arsenal at OT.
If Moyes has continued to exclude the likes of Nani and Kagawa at this point, then I think he's due criticism. At this stage, I think he made a justified call.
I think it's easy in hindsight to say Moyes made a mistake in persisting with Young and Valencia throughout this tough run, but as I keep saying, there are no guarantees that Kagawa and Nani would've fared any better. It's easy to say Moyes made a mistake now - we're all world class managers after the event - but judgment should really be reserved for a month or so. Let's have a look at where we stand in all competitions after we've played Arsenal at OT.
If Moyes has continued to exclude the likes of Nani and Kagawa at this point, then I think he's due criticism. At this stage, I think he made a justified call.
I really do accept that I know far less about the game than David Moyes, but if you add up Welbeck's goals and then add up Chico's... I know that's simplifying it, and I know there's a lot more to it than just being a goal scorer, but what it boils down to is, if you have a player who can put the ball in the net, then that might just be better than all the other fancy things that we look for outside the box. It's all very well pointing out what Chico can't do, or doesn't do as well, but the fact is, what he does do well is score goals, and surely should have been worth a chance yesterday.
Especially when the players who are being picked don't actually contribute that much. Welbeck's touch has been awful lately. Young is average.
Especially when the players who are being picked don't actually contribute that much. Welbeck's touch has been awful lately. Young is average.
Goals win games and all that
It is speculation that they would have performed better but you just have to consider the type of attack that a trio of Welbeck, Young and Valencia would bring, especially as we know how they have been playing. There's little to none individual ability to do something unexpected, Valencia leads to one player who is fixed in his position and Young has shown he doesn't have the confidence often enough to drift inside from the left to influence. Welbeck is a neat player but he's not a creative player and he's not really a big goal threat.
With loosing RVP, our attack was crying out for some extra attacking quality because in open play we'd lost out most potent threat and from set pieces we'd lost our best deliverer. So for me we needed to bring in at least one of Nani, Kagawa or Hernandez or we properly needed to commit to playing a counter game using a 3 man midfield. Like with the liverpool game I felt we neither went for a team that could set up particularly attackingly or was really well set to keep it tight and look for a counter, particularly as it looked to me that we wanted both welbeck and Rooney high.
I thought before this game it was reasonable to leave one of those three, nani, kagawa Hernandez as he hadn't seen them and they'd been unfit, but he's had plenty of time to look at them in training and to research them to understand what they bring now. And it's not unusual for a player to bring back an attacker and put them straight in, we've seen it with Nani before, fair enough it hasn't always worked but then that hasn't usually been just down to Nani but just the team as a whole not being quite up for the game.
But definitely going forward he needs to look at making a change to the attack because just like last season its looking very uninspiring at times and relying more on the brilliance of RVP and Rooney than a team effort.
I'm not sure how anyone can hold such an opinion. You don't play players for just standing out wide. Tell vidic and he'll stand out wide ffs (exaggeration alert.). Their job is to provide with and actually do something positive with the ball. Otherwise there's no point in playing them. I'd rather us not play proper wingers if they're going to be so utterly shit.
And no were not world class managers but everyone can see that the choice to stick with Valencia and young was a poor one and he deserves criticism for that. It's his job to manage this team properly, not ours.
Ashley Young doesn't create space for anyone. Except for the opposition. He's woeful.
I get that Kagawa hasn't impressed, that Nani has a difficult 12 months behind him - but feck my life, they MIGHT do something good. There's an actual chance of a positive performance from them. Ashley Young, at this point, is absolutely guaranteed to be utterly shite. It is sheer lunacy to keep playing him, no tactical reasons justify his continued selection.
Although not the OP's point, are we killing these types of players, as well as Smalling (yesterday not withstanding), Jones, Anderson, etc
The thing about Kagawa here is that people want him to displace our wingers, but he's not even a winger, he's a #10 who has underwhelmed so far when used in his best position and I can't remember any good performances from him on the left at all.
He's a good player and probably a better alternative to Young but hasn't really justified people saying he should be an automatic first teamer here, where as (in my opinion) Nani and Hernandez have done far more at Utd to warrant people being aggravated about players like Young and Welbeck getting games ahead of them.
He's a good player and probably a better alternative to Young but hasn't really justified people saying he should be an automatic first teamer here, where as (in my opinion) Nani and Hernandez have done far more at Utd to warrant people being aggravated about players like Young and Welbeck getting games ahead of them.
His NT?
Cause that counts doesn't it?
Exactly. Kagawa may be the best out of the current lot, but even he isn't of the required quality we should expect from our wide players. His best position is behind the striker and he should play there when either of Rooney or van Persie are not playing. He should fill in on the left otherwise. We should be looking at better options for our wings as we have no creativity down the middle if Kagawa isn't playing there.
That's true.
But Ashley Young gets on everyone's tits at the moment and Kagawa must be a better option than him. If he completes one good through ball in a game - and he always does as much - he'll have already won that particular contest.