Eh? I don't even know where to start. You being sarcastic or something?
Nani | Contract & Transfer talk
- Thread starter gooDevil
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Eh? I don't even know where to start. You being sarcastic or something?
Many young players have looked very good in the reserves but not many can translate those performances at the top level.
It's not just that. Reserve football level in England is a joke. Even Sporting B plays at higher level because they play in a professional league just one tier bellow our top flight football. A very long season with 24 teams like the english championship. Just for example in our last Sporting B team game, our lineup contained several portuguese u21 internacionals, an egyptian international who is a starter (Rabia), a scottish international (Ryan Gauld), a french u21 international (Sakho former Bordeaux), a bulgarian international (Slavchev). Not even Óliver Torres, Gaitan and Sálvio are massive and they are far superior players to Januzaj (at the moment of course).
Oliver Torres far superior to Januzaj, think you're pushing it a bit now mate.
He isn't? Well it's a matter of opinion mate. Not saying i hold the absolute truth but Óliver Torres has impressed me far more than Januzaj this year. Wonderful player for Porto and one of the best along Brahimi and Jackson Martinez in the Champions League. But i said at the moment. I think Januzaj will surpass Gaitán and Sálvio in the future. In relation to Óliver i'm still in doubt. Let's see how he does when he returns to Atlético Madrid.
That is entirely missing the point I was making but off you go.
I have no problem in discussing it. What's the point really?
If that league is so bad why they are ahead of France and Italy?
Januzaj, when given space, takes the piss. The defending by most of the Portuguese league teams, leaves a lot of space...not so tricky really.
You're seriously underestimating the contribution Januzaj has made at United over the past 12 months. Sinking team, intense pressure, 18 years old, 76,000 supporters used to winning every week and playing at one of the biggest sports clubs on earth. Very few players at the top of the game right now replicated the kind of form, promise and inherent skill that Januzaj demonstrated for us last season at the age of 18. The younger - and even the older ones, actually - players you're talking about haven't had to play at a club like United before and have yet to play under pressure, or against competition, anywhere near as high.
Ah the master of assumptions. Guess you must be an expert and watch our league alot. It's actually a crap point and i adressed it. I'll explain it again in you case it flew over your head. My point was, taking the piss at english football reserve league level isn't that impressive. Even playing for Sporting B is more difficult because football is played at a higher level. Portuguese football has one of the lowest goal scoring percentages in the european league charts. It's a boring defensive football by definition. Not surprising that Nani's numbers are better in the Champions League because he has more freedom and space in europe. The second point i also adressed was naming players who are superior (at the moment, just in case you don't get your knickers in a twist) to Januzaj who haven't been massive. It wasn't tricky really.
I didn't do that at all. In the post you quoted i just underestimated the quality of english reserve football. I've said multiple times in the past posts that i rate Januzaj and predict that he will become a top player. You just need to read the posts. What i also said is that at the moment, he hasn't done enough to warrant the very high evaluation some posters are giving him. Still much to prove. That's it. But i think he will get there, if given the chance to play and evolve.
I highlighted that post but it was more in reference to a few ones you have recently made. I'm not going to doubt your knowledge of Portuguese football or even pretend to know much about it because I don't, but I think it's a little one-eyed to list a fair few players you consider better than Januzaj when the level they play at isn't really comparable to the one he plays at. You mention Carlos Mane, for example, and while I'm no expert on the guy I just don't really see how you can justify saying he's a better player than a 19 year old that has already been a regular in the Premier League for Manchester United, demonstrating all kinds of ability, and then going on to represent a team like Belgium at the World Cup.
Nani obviously triggered this debate, and while I think Nani is in much better form at the moment, Januzaj was convincingly better last season and I don't think there's a lot between the pair on the whole. I rate both players highly, for what it's worth.
Regarding Nani, i didn't dispute that Januzaj was better than him last year. It must have been someone else who said it. Of course he was, i have the same opinion. But i also have the opinion that Nani has been convincingly better than Januzaj this year. I also never claimed that Januzaj won't be a superior player to Nani in the future. I rate Januzaj highly, that's why i said i wouldn't mind having him on loan. But at the moment (of course it's a unfair comparison between a 19 year old and a 28 year old experienced footballer) i consider Nani a superior player.
Regarding Carrillo and Carlos Mané i should have explained myself better. They are better players in the portuguese football specific context. They are players with 2/3 years of portuguese football fully adapted to the league and the club. It would be hard for Januzaj to replace them. I consider Mané a superior player because of his skill and his caractheristics. He is also a highly rated talent but i doubt you know him. And i don't blame you, our league isn't very glamours but our academy has a reputation in the same level as Ajax, Barcelona or Partizan. He isn't at United like Januzaj but i predict that he will reach a top club in the future. Liverpool have him shortlisted since Next Gen tournaments. Mané last year was excellent with decent numbers and important goals. In a season where we did well and reached the Champions League. This year he has been a starter along Nani in the Champions League and just scored in the last game. United's season was chaotic but Januzaj deserves the individual praise for imposing himself in a top european club. It's not easy for Mané to get into our national team because he has Nani and Ronaldo in front of him
But he will get there. He's an essencial player for our u21. It's just my opinion though. I have watched both players. But i completely understand and respect your points.In terms of what we can expect from them in the immediate future, which is what we're talking about, the best gauge is their most recent form. But as I said, it's hardly fair to compare Nani's form in a much easier league in a team where he is a no-questions-asked starter and has their whole attack focussed on him to Januzaj's for a United side where he's basically in competition with Angel di Maria, Wayne Rooney and Juan Mata. You cannot with a straight face claim that that's a fair comparison.
So last season is their most recent form when they were playing in similar conditions, and indeed when they were playing in the Premier League, at Manchester United, which is the relevant context.
That has to be a better way of judging who we should play than 'how good have they been in the past'. By that logic we'd be getting Giggs back on the pitch.
Anyway I can't argue it any more because while your points are perfectly sensible, there's a lot in this thread who just can't seem to accept that there's a difference between Nani being an incredibly gifted player, which he obviously is, and Nani being a player with any real likelihood of actually showing that ability for United for any duration. At best he was fulfilling his potential for two years out of seven with us, and last season he was genuinely wretched, both in his performances and the shoddy attitude that went with them. A few months of glittering form in a much easier league doesn't come close to outweighing that.
Correct me if I'm wrong but you believe last season is a fair comparison between Nani and Januzaj as they were both on the same terms? If so, I don't agree. A shared opinion between many supporters is that Nani performs his best when he actually gets to play some consistent football and his performances both currently and in the past prove that.
Januzaj last season started the season off very well but as the season went on wasn't nearly as effective. Nani last season was used sporadically due to both injuries and a lack of opportunities where as Januzaj was our "go to" player for a fair few fixtures. Therefore I don't see how comparing a Januzaj in his best form to date (form he has not come close to producing ever since) is a fair comparison to an unsettled, out of form, crook Nani who was clearly lacking confidence. This season
Nani is actually playing well in a weaker league as you insist. So how does that explain his best performances which are coming against the best teams in Portugal and the competition he has faced in the champions league.
He is producing in the Portuguese league, a league you are underrating (despite their performances in Europe showing differently) but also in the Champions league. I really don't understand what him playing on Portugal has to do with him playing well in Europe. Also who's to claim Januzaj's form from last season wasn't a purple patch? Even Ashley young looked good at one stage, not saying I agree with that but a player should be judged on their current form not what they did last season. We are considerably better this season than last but Januzaj has been Dissapointing more often than not, while Nani is lighting up a competition we couldn't even qualify for
Nani's form right now would be a huge asset to our side. He's creating chances for fun, whereas we struggle to create much. Januzaj isn't really performing this season, Mata isn't a winger and LVG sees the other 2 failed wingers as back up full backs now. Doubting his performances this season because of the league is just silly, because we know he can do similiar at United. Just needs the trust and belief of his manager and a run in the side. Whether LVG will give him that is another story, but he must be impressed with what he's seen, and lets not use pre season as a barometer to judge any player because Fletcher and Young would be starting every week if that was the case. Nani probably knew he was getting shipped, infact he played pretty well when he came on against Swansea. Last season wasn't a good one, but how often did he get a run of games? He's still not too old to come back and perform at United.
Nani vs Maribor:
Shorter version:
Not really a big fan of the key passes (shot assists) stat because it can be misleading, but fwiw he's created lots of chances and is up there with the best creators.
Chances created:
Messi 23
Koke 19
Benzema 17
Fabregas 17
Nani 17
Production:
Messi 7 goals; 2 assists
Koke 2 goals; 4 assists
Benzema 5 goals; 1 assist
Fabregas 1 goal; 3 assists
Nani 4 goals; 2 assists
Shorter version:
Not really a big fan of the key passes (shot assists) stat because it can be misleading, but fwiw he's created lots of chances and is up there with the best creators.
Chances created:
Messi 23
Koke 19
Benzema 17
Fabregas 17
Nani 17
Production:
Messi 7 goals; 2 assists
Koke 2 goals; 4 assists
Benzema 5 goals; 1 assist
Fabregas 1 goal; 3 assists
Nani 4 goals; 2 assists
Christ, just bring him back already. Would love to see an in form Nani link up with the likes of Falcao.
Lets be realistic. He's excelling as one of the star players in a competition we didn't even get close to qualifying for
If we had any way of getting him back and sticking him in the team to give us a jolt of life, we'd be silly not to. However we don't have that option.
Its a serious cockup
We have a severe lack of dribblers and pace. He provides these.
The one problem would be having Di Maria and Nani function together. They both take on players and try risky plays. Rooney too. I've suggested they could play as an interchanging front 3 with Mata behind and a double pivot with Carrick and Blind.
The one problem would be having Di Maria and Nani function together. They both take on players and try risky plays. Rooney too. I've suggested they could play as an interchanging front 3 with Mata behind and a double pivot with Carrick and Blind.
Not many players, at least bigger name loans get sent out with a recall agreement, especially when there are fee's or wages are paid. Sporting certainly didn't get him for loan.
The fact is the last two seasons he's been quite poor for us, last season at times when he did play he was terrible, and he looked no better during pre season. When you have a front line of Falcao, Januzaj, Di Maria, Mata, Van Persie, Rooney, Young, Valencia, you can see why there was space to send him on loan.
Don't think at the time Nani was sent at loan, anyone could imagine he would be the answer to our attacking problems, or he would start playing like he has.
Pre season means very little. And why not? He hasn't been given a run of games for over 2 years so it's no coincidence that he hits top form when finally given a run. Januzaj has been garbage in his performances this season, and young and valencia? They don't play as wingers anymore.
Yes but you have a new manager come in, whose apparently judge everyone on what they've seen in training + pre season. Januzaj had a better season than Nani last season, arguably better pre season. Young did well in pre-season, especially as he played out of position and so did Valencia.
He hasn't been given a run for 2 years because a) injuries b) he's been so dire he does not deserve them.
good to see him getting back some of his confidence. would love to have him back next summer, hopefully.
Geez that's a terrible tackle against him at 05:00
I mean, fecking hell.
Yep. I mentioned it after coming from the stadium. When he went down in pain, it looked serious, i thought "well that's it, our season down the drain" but he eventually got back after 5 minutes thankfully. He has been very strong physically. That's not the first one. In the Porto and Chelsea games, he got really rough treatment from the defenders as well. But he hasn't missed a single game (besides a portuguese cup game against a third division side).
Watching that clip, he doesn't look to have lost any pace, which many argued he had. Looks fast and nimble enough.
Garbage?
To be fair, thats the only game he's even looked half decent. He's been poor so far this season.
Lets be realistic. He's excelling as one of the star players in a competition we didn't even get close to qualifying for
If we had any way of getting him back and sticking him in the team to give us a jolt of life, we'd be silly not to. However we don't have that option.
Its a serious cockup
Koke-Carrick-Herrera
Nani-Falcao-Di Maria
Lets be realistic. He's excelling as one of the star players in a competition we didn't even get close to qualifying for
If we had any way of getting him back and sticking him in the team to give us a jolt of life, we'd be silly not to. However we don't have that option.
Its a serious cockup
But those ratings/stats aren't important because he plays in the Portugese League, remember?
As I said in the summer, it was a bad idea to give him to Sporting as part of the Rojo deal. He's a better player than Rojo, a better option than Young or Valencia and he'll be a year older with less on his contract when he returns in the summer, so if anything his value will go down not up because he did well at the world cup too.
If we were gonna loan him, the only reason would be for him to play first team games and get momentum. And the obvious thing to do if thats our reasoning, is to insist that we can recall him. So we can use the player who has first team games and momentum.
He barely played last season due to injury and Moyes not wanting to use him. He barely played in preseason because he was being used as a striker in a 3-5-2
All it took was putting him on the teamsheet week after week to see him return to form. Which by the way, is something we afforded Berbatov in his first season (straight in the team, not taken out when doing poorly) and we've also kept Ashley Young and Antonio Valencia in the team when they were doing poorly.
Nani has never been given that luxury, but going back to Sporting he knows he's in the team every week no matter how he performs. Of course it was the answer and of course he's doing a lot better now.
In this form Nani could be valuable for us but in long term hes gonna be 29 soon and I dont want him to see performing like a god in one match and be utter shite in another, also if he came back he would like to take corners and direct freekicks in which he is terrible. I remember I always wanted to kick the screen of my computer watching Nani played six corner in a row hitting the first player.. may he play good at sporting and stays there..
Prob our form player at the minute, it's a pity we're paying him £4m to spend the season in Portugal playing in the Champions League.
Who else in the team performs like a god EVER? People have standards for Nani that are completely disconnected from reality. It's bizarre.
I watch Benfica play regularly. There is a lot of space left by most of the opposition defences. I think the tempo of Premier League defending shows up poor decision making which you could argue Nani and Januzaj both sometimes have. Can't be arsed discussing this, I don't actually give a feck, but in some pointless hypothetical situation where Januzaj was on loan in Portugal I reckon he would stand out as one of the league's best players. Simple as that.
Rooney tends to take them off him, and you can count on that now that he's the captain
He doesn't take freekicks off Di Maria despite Di Maria being no more useful with them (shots) than Nani was
No I have the highest standards for everyone because we are the biggest club in the world which once was the best in the world and soon very likely be if things go well. Nani was my favourite player back in the day but he had one consistent season. Apart that he had strong fluctuation of either great or terrible performances which no one can deny. Obviously every player in the world has his days when he is out of form and doesn't play well but one needs to have solid standard when doesn't play well. Nani's bottom was always just eeehph we all know how frustrating he can be at times. It's like Berbatov sometimes. When a player doesn't give a feck then sell him. Apart that he is very injury prone which didn't help him either setting his high bottom standard. Your defending of him is bizarre, man .-)
I hope we call Anderson back as well, oh wait...
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