Given another season and the money the club is now prepared to splash around. Moyes would have got us into the cherished top four.
Moyes Was Sacked One Year Ago
- Thread starter Mr Pigeon
- Start date
If Moyes had ANY chance to succeed here, he should have revamped he entire squad by signing at least 6-7 players, but he chose to go on holiday and dithered when he got back.
His reputation alone - meant he or his methods were never going to automatically gain the respect of those seasoned champions in the dressing room. I can only imagine:
If Moyes shows Rio a video of Jagielka - he's laughed at by Rio
If LvG showed Rio a video of Vlaar, I'd probably guess he'd have been open to learning something new.
It's all guessing on my part anyway, but Moyes never had the record, nor the personality to succeed here. & for that reason, he shouldn't have been appointed.
The players can still let him down though, I think it was quite obvious that a few players were simply going through the motions. I blame that mostly on Moyes though, he'd completely lost the dressing room and none of the players believed in him or the direction he was taking the club. But still, if the players had wanted they probably could have made it look slightly better for Moyes.
Very questionable. While we've spent a lot this season, Moyes had plenty of money to spend as well and still took us from 1st to 7th. He might have been able to make a better go at the top 4 since the points total may be lower to reach it this season (or would be if we weren't where we are now, if that makes sense), but our big game performances have improved massively this season, and were awful under him.
Just had another thought.
Moyes could completely revolutionize Spannish football in much the same way Guardiola did with European football. We now have teams across europe trying to imitate this Tiki Taka stuff as it proved successful.
Spain has never really seen Moyes' brand of percentage football before and he has already beaten Barcelona with it.
Imagine in 5 years time Barcelona and Madrid could be playing 424 with 6ft 6in strikers and centre halves that can lump it great distances. If the long ball isnt on the just punt it to the wingers to whip it in 92 times a game.
Moyes could completely revolutionize Spannish football in much the same way Guardiola did with European football. We now have teams across europe trying to imitate this Tiki Taka stuff as it proved successful.
Spain has never really seen Moyes' brand of percentage football before and he has already beaten Barcelona with it.
Imagine in 5 years time Barcelona and Madrid could be playing 424 with 6ft 6in strikers and centre halves that can lump it great distances. If the long ball isnt on the just punt it to the wingers to whip it in 92 times a game.
Antonio Carrollio
I think Mourinho would've won the title last year.
He'd make 2-3 new additions and he would command the respect of all players from day 1. He is Mourinho, after all.
He would devise tactics for each game, designed to beat teams who have better players than ours.
When LVG arrived, the player confidence was rock bottom. Moyes had publicly stated that he could not work with the existing set of players and that he needed a new team. They had become used to getting beat by Man City, Everton, LFC, etc. And it took a while for LVG to instill the confidence in our players to play big teams in the league and attempt to win.
Moyes was an experiment (by Fergie) which failed. When Moyes was fired, Fergie was not consulted. When LVG was appointed, Fergie was not consulted. Basically, the Glazers decided that they needed a big name with a proven reputation of winning at the highest level.
It does amaze me that the Glazers went along with Fergie's recommendation, so blindly. They could've hired an intern and after 5 hours of internet research, they'd have known that Moyes was not a top manager and would be a huge risk.
we've come a long a way....
Hey man I've already tried to back track on this, got quoted a million times before I could edit
Signings would've been a must in order for us to have mounted any sort of title defence last year. The whole Moyes appointment was toxic from the moment he was announced. He did very little to help himself, and it seemed he had very little help from anyone around him. I dunno if it is just me recovering from post traumatic stress but it seemed every team we played last season were either hitting form or they raised their game massively, a bit like the start of this season.
While unlikely i'll admit it was certainly possible, but then what?
He would have never won the league or probably even challenged for it. It's highly unlikely he would have never won the Champions League either.
So even if we came top 4 every year (while playing Moyes dreary brand of football), what exactly would have been the point of keeping him in charge?
Though his departure was no surprise, it did leave a slight feeling of 'what are we doing'?
I supported his appointment, as you would any new manager, even though he was not even on my list of potential managers. However, I do feel that if we compare LVG to Moyes you see the difference between a man that has a vision and a clear strategy to get there vs. somebody that probably had a vision, but had no clarity of how he was going to get there.
I am not sure whether Moyes got sabotaged by certain players, but we looked clueless, had no passion and really had no leadership. I certainly now look at it as a wasted year.
I supported his appointment, as you would any new manager, even though he was not even on my list of potential managers. However, I do feel that if we compare LVG to Moyes you see the difference between a man that has a vision and a clear strategy to get there vs. somebody that probably had a vision, but had no clarity of how he was going to get there.
I am not sure whether Moyes got sabotaged by certain players, but we looked clueless, had no passion and really had no leadership. I certainly now look at it as a wasted year.
Undoubtedly. I mean that. The “Moyes is the worst manager in history” brigade will disagree, of course, but they're somewhat dim to begin with.
But there's a ceiling to any manager's potential – and I don't think the idea that Moyes' ceiling was/is simply too low is ridiculous. It takes something special to manage a behemoth like United – something beyond the qualities which makes you a good manager as such. You need a bit of star quality, I think. One way or the other. Don't think Moyes has that – or that he'll ever get it.
But top four? Of course he would've made top four given time and resources. If he had survived he would've made top four – easily, in fact. But anything beyond that? Who knows. It's that ceiling thing again.
I think it's clear that a number of players became very disillusioned with him and his style of management early on, and that there may have been a little bit of dissent by some, although I don't think he had players deliberately sabotaging his every move or decision. I doubt it got to that stage, despite the threads last season which had Ryan Giggs as some sort of genial mastermind who was secretly sabotaging Moyes to control the club. But if Moyes had stayed, I think the dissent within the dressing room would've probably continued to grow.
Give to Moyes a few years and a few hindred of millions and he would have achieved to get into top 4. The same can probbaly be said about me, to be fair.
A big difference between Moyes and Van Gaal: last season on 12 games against 6 teams that finished above us we got an incredible amount of points, 6 points. Scored 5 goals, conceded 21. This season against the same teams: played 10 matches and we got 22 points. Scored 18, conceded 7.
So yeah, ladies and gentlemen, we should have sticked with Moyes. Forever. Because his ceiling wasn't too low.
Fail not probably, but not a huge succes either. I could imagine him doing reasonably well, like top 4 every year in a three year spell, maybe the odd title or cup. But it's normal for any organisations that when a very big man leaves, there is transitional period, when a necesseraly weaker figure has to take over. Pope Francis didn't succeed JPII directly, Napoleon didn't come right after Louis XIV, after Thatcher there was John Major.
Imagine that right after SAF there would be Van Gaal saying "we're going to turn around this club and do everything differently". That wouldn't have worked, would it? The circumstances for a huge figure like Van Gaal weren't right, the one succeeding SAF would be expected to continue his work as much as possible, so you get a man who is good at continuing at most, not someone who born to change things.
Fer feck's sake, mate - I said his ceiling in all probability was too low.
My beef ain't with those who claim Moyes wasn't right for us – but with those who think he was an utter idiot. He wasn't – and he isn't.
He wasn't an idiot, and is a good manager. Just nowhere good enough for a club that aspires to win trophies every year and pretty much wants guaranteed UCL football.
Sorry for misreading that part.
Do you realize that you base this on absolutely nothing? Van Gaal has not only strengthened the team, he has managed to squeeze A LOT more from most players who were bad under Moyes.
Best memories:
Mata signing
Januzaj's emergence and contract renewal
Rooney's contract renewal
4-1 vs Swansea opening day of the season
1-0 vs Arsenal
1-0 vs Liverpool in the COC (lol) cup
Group stages of Champions League (0-5 vs Leverkusen in particular)
3-0 vs Olympiakos (RvP hatrick)
Sacking
Worst memories:
Pursuit of Thiago
Pursuit of Fabregas
Pursuit of Herrera
The manner of the Fellaini signing (missed buyout clause)
Preseason (didn't we lose to like Singha All Stars or something?)
Back to back home losses vs Newcastle and Everton
0-3 home drubbings to Liverpool and City
All press conferences
Fulham match
Mata signing
Januzaj's emergence and contract renewal
Rooney's contract renewal
4-1 vs Swansea opening day of the season
1-0 vs Arsenal
1-0 vs Liverpool in the COC (lol) cup
Group stages of Champions League (0-5 vs Leverkusen in particular)
3-0 vs Olympiakos (RvP hatrick)
Sacking
Worst memories:
Pursuit of Thiago
Pursuit of Fabregas
Pursuit of Herrera
The manner of the Fellaini signing (missed buyout clause)
Preseason (didn't we lose to like Singha All Stars or something?)
Back to back home losses vs Newcastle and Everton
0-3 home drubbings to Liverpool and City
All press conferences
Fulham match
It's not based on absolutely nothing.
We're talking top four here – whether Moyes would've managed to get us top four in his second season.
Given Moyes' general qualities as a manager – the same qualities which made him a plausible candidate for the board to begin with – and given our transfer budget, it's surely not unreasonable to think he would've managed top four this season. Look at the feckin' opposition. It's hardly terrifying.
If Moyes had survived, he would've known that top four was an absolute minimum this season. If he had survived, he would've been less timid this season – he would've done much more to make the team his own.
This is an absurdly hypothetical discussion, but if we're giving it a go, let's not get positively stupid – Moyes isn't a terrible manager. He knows how to set up a functional side. That's enough, given our resources, to construct a top four side in today's Premier League. Again, look at the opposition – do you think it requires a genius to make Manchester United finish 4th in the PL? It's what lies beyond this bare minimum which matters. That's where the difference between someone like Moyes and someone like our Aloysius comes into play.
Pros:
1. His transfers (Mata and Fellaini) are some of the star performers in the team today
2. SAF was always going to want someone like him, his failure proves a point and allowed the club to move on with the times and hire a forward thinking manager
Cons:
1. Suboptimal results, boring style of play
2. Fell out of Champions League, leading to decreasing attractiveness to players (along with having Moyes as manager itself) and decreased revenue
Contentious:
1. His appointment probably meant Mourinho was not given the role, but LVG one year afterwards instead. Inevitably there are gonna be Mourinho supporters and dissenters here.
2. Falling out with many of the old guard caused them to leave at the end of the season, impossible to judge whether they may have continued to do a good job here this year under LVG.
Personally I prefer LVG over Mourinho, so it was almost a necessary sacrifice, and I would not dismiss his appointment as completely useless.
Overall: Middle option
1. His transfers (Mata and Fellaini) are some of the star performers in the team today
2. SAF was always going to want someone like him, his failure proves a point and allowed the club to move on with the times and hire a forward thinking manager
Cons:
1. Suboptimal results, boring style of play
2. Fell out of Champions League, leading to decreasing attractiveness to players (along with having Moyes as manager itself) and decreased revenue
Contentious:
1. His appointment probably meant Mourinho was not given the role, but LVG one year afterwards instead. Inevitably there are gonna be Mourinho supporters and dissenters here.
2. Falling out with many of the old guard caused them to leave at the end of the season, impossible to judge whether they may have continued to do a good job here this year under LVG.
Personally I prefer LVG over Mourinho, so it was almost a necessary sacrifice, and I would not dismiss his appointment as completely useless.
Overall: Middle option
I think the players who let him down, also let LVG down but he was able to get rid of them more easily.
Was doomed to fail from day one because his ego or stupidity stopped him from recognising the difference between managing Everton and Utd. As soon as he walked through the door thinking doing what he did at Everton would work he failed and he should have been sacked much sooner because he was completely out of his depth in every aspect of the job.
I still shudder when I remember his post match interviews.
Good point.
On Moyes: Was fighting an uphill battle from the start. Improved rivals, the unprofessional attitude of our senior players, the malaise we were in the prior season despite winning the league... it was always going to be a step down. A significant proportion of fans was against him from the start.
That being said, he made significant missteps. In the end, it wasn't a good marriage. Better than the last season indicated, but not good enough for United and the expectations. Felt bad for him throughout, never understood the animosity. Did his best which wasn't good enough.
This place was miserable last year from January to April. It was a black hole of every good feeling.
Best Memory: That home tie against Olympiacos definitely. It kept the tiny hope alive that we could do a Chelsea.
Worst: The shocking football we played all season. Awful!
Worst: The shocking football we played all season. Awful!
I like the way you begin your post with that, then go on to make an argument based on no evidence whatsoever.
Doomed to fail.
Nothing about him ever suggested he was the right choice to manage this club.
Nothing about him ever suggested he was the right choice to manage this club.
It baffles me to this day that Phil Neville, a man who had never coached a football team before, was appointed first team coach at a club the size of Manchester United. Furthermore, what on earth was the purpose of Jimmy fecking Lumsden? I still don't know who he is or what he really does.
And does anybody else remember Moyes' public galavanting across the whole of Europe in search of the world's best players? Via his private jet, bought specifically for scouting, of course.
I'm joking, ish, but last season really was the perfect nightmare. It transpired so effortlessly hideously. When he was sacked the wrongs in the footballing world were put to rights and Steven Gerrard remembered that he or Liverpool were never supposed to win a Premier League title.
All so predictably terrible, too. The small appreciation I have for the job Moyes managed at United, (and it's very, very small) is allowing me to understand just how lucky it is to be a United supporter. If and when we win our next title, it will probably be the one I enjoy most. Thanks, Davey.
And does anybody else remember Moyes' public galavanting across the whole of Europe in search of the world's best players? Via his private jet, bought specifically for scouting, of course.
I'm joking, ish, but last season really was the perfect nightmare. It transpired so effortlessly hideously. When he was sacked the wrongs in the footballing world were put to rights and Steven Gerrard remembered that he or Liverpool were never supposed to win a Premier League title.
All so predictably terrible, too. The small appreciation I have for the job Moyes managed at United, (and it's very, very small) is allowing me to understand just how lucky it is to be a United supporter. If and when we win our next title, it will probably be the one I enjoy most. Thanks, Davey.
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Even though his time in charge was excruciating, I do miss him as a person and an underdog. We all wanted it to work, the 'chosen one' banner was semi-ironic but also a symbol of an adventurous gamble that ultimately blew up in the club's face.
Aye.
It would have made a great story. In fact that's how the club branded the appointment - "The Story Continues"
Maybe that's why people stuck by him. The idea of having another dynasty for 20+ years. Certainly must have been the thinking in the boardroom when they appointed him.
I wouldn't describe myself as a fan of his, but I was one of the few people on this forum who weren't calling for his head every day from January onwards. I didn't think he was the right man for the job (I wanted Ancellotti), but I was conscious of the fact that it was a huge undertaking to replace Fergie and that to hit the ground running was a tall order. I also still believe that the players weren't behind him and that that had a lot to do with our performances last year. On the surface of it, it seemed like he was too weak to control the bigger characters in the squad. He was always kind of defeatist, he appeared in awe of the job, and his tactics were so pedestrian for a club with a very attacking ethos. However, you hear the stories from behind the scenes, and it seemed like he was a pathetic bully trying to be the big man by forbidding the digestion of chips under pain of death, and you then think "What a tool". No doubt, the truth will be somewhere in the middle, but I really do think that pretty much every manager on the planet, bar a handful, would have really struggled last season and that, with the benefit of hindsight, he was probably the modern equivalent of Wilf McGuinness. A man who tried his best, but just wasn't up to the job.
Like most of the small group who weren't calling for him to be sacked by the end, I breathed a massive sigh of relief when it eventually happened.
Like most of the small group who weren't calling for him to be sacked by the end, I breathed a massive sigh of relief when it eventually happened.
This was my biggest fear when he was appointed. He would do just enough to keep himself from getting sacked and we would slide into mediocrity, all while playing his boring brand of percentage football and 4-4-2. Several years of football, completely devoid of imagination while just making it into the CL every year (and the odd cup run) would have made be doubt my faith in football. Buying some of the best players in the world, only to then have them play percentage football would have made me cry. I firmly believe we dodged a bullet when he got sacked, otherwise he would have been our Souness.
Moyes would have been starting from a worse position than Van Gaal though as he had already lost the dressing room at that stage. If he had stayed he would have had to get rid of even more players than LVG did, I think. Which in turn would mean an even more disjointed start to this season, which would have piled even more pressure on Moyes. I can't how he could have rescued things from the low point he reached. His credibility as United manager had been shot to pieces.
People give it that Moyes took over a bad squad but that was where his early mistakes were.
It was obvious the 2013 needed a few changes but he didn't have the balls to do them.
He was too scared to try and change a championship winning team and thought they surely must atleast get top 4. We then had a very stale squad last season which is the worst thing to do when Champions and you are easily overtaken. Add that to his appalling pulling power in the transfer market and his tactical ineptness and boom we finished 7th.
It was obvious the 2013 needed a few changes but he didn't have the balls to do them.
He was too scared to try and change a championship winning team and thought they surely must atleast get top 4. We then had a very stale squad last season which is the worst thing to do when Champions and you are easily overtaken. Add that to his appalling pulling power in the transfer market and his tactical ineptness and boom we finished 7th.
Agreed, I remember arguing this point before he was appointed. We needed a manager with experience to guide the club through an extremely difficult period. Instead we employed a man with no big club experience and minimal European experience. Utterly baffling.