Moyes So Far!

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Watching Norwich yesterday. Defensively they were a joke at times. But with our slow football they should be fine against us. Wouldn't be surprised if we lose to them. I thought they were unlucky against Liverpool.
 
Shinjisan said:
Let's hope that doesn't happen. It is sad state of affairs that we'll have to sack Sir Alex's successor only a year after his retirement. There is nothing worse than uncertainty. Though I can no longer see him continuing in the job. The team on the park should have put a more solid performance irrespective of the result. The performance has been a constant theme against any half decent team this season. I could understand the earlier failings but this one has to be the final nail in the coffin.
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Uncertainty is certainly better than certain mediocrity.
 
Hernandez - BFA said:
Even though I want him gone, I don't hate Moyes. It surprises me how many people here genuinely sound as if they hate his guts.

He's lead us to a shit season, and he's totally out of his depth at United - but I'd go as far as saying that he's tried his best for us. You can tell he's done all HE can possibly can. Difficult to say that and I'm sure it's a subjective subject but I think he has. Not as if he's purposely lead us to this position.
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Nobody in their right mind can disagree with that - well said! He's a decent, hard working and, I daresay, highly principled individual. The only problem is, he is totally unsuited to the job of managing United and more particularly following on from a managerial legend. It won't come right no matter how much time Moyes is given. He just doesn't have the personality, the charisma or the ability to do this most exacting of jobs. It's been a horrendous mistake and the sooner the club realises it and makes the decision to replace him, the better.
 
Amir said:
It's fecking North Korea, isn't it?
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In fairness, it's the club's in house television station. They acted totally appropriately in that situation. It'd have been worse if MUTV broadcast a programme in which Moyes was having strips torn off him. Don't air your dirty linen and public and all that...
 
Moonwalker said:
Well I agree wholeheartedly. It would be facile to think otherwise. However, since selection and style of play are the visible part of the ice berg for us fans, we tend to overemphasize those things. Therefore, since he finally got that bit 'right' or at least in accordance with the caf expert consensus, shouldn't he get an iota of...well credit, if praise is too much to muster considering we lost and all.
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Pay me a fraction of his 5m a year and I'd get it right more often than he has done this season.

The fact of the matter is he's simple out of his depth and the sooner we get rid of him the better for all concerned.
 
Feed Me said:
In fairness, it's the club's in house television station. They acted totally appropriately in that situation. It'd have been worse if MUTV broadcast a programme in which Moyes was having strips torn off him. Don't air your dirty linen and public and all that...
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There's been that much already this season that I don't think it'd make much difference.
 
SteveJ said:
He's reached the limit of his abilities, and can't understand why his hard work isn't paying off. However, hard work is no substitute for talent...

So I doubt he's smiling out of arrogance; more likely he's exasperated, bewildered & somewhat resigned.
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Aye, it seems that way to be honest. I think he's genuinely dumbfounded.

Sorry, Moyes, but you've either got it or you ain't. Mm-hm. *snaps fingers, sassily.*
 
Bit disappointing, I was expecting lots of news/rumours about his potential sacking this morning. A couple articles and thats it
 
Hernandez - BFA said:
Even though I want him gone, I don't hate Moyes. It surprises me how many people here genuinely sound as if they hate his guts.

He's lead us to a shit season, and he's totally out of his depth at United - but I'd go as far as saying that he's tried his best for us. You can tell he's done all HE can possibly can. Difficult to say that and I'm sure it's a subjective subject but I think he has. Not as if he's purposely lead us to this position.
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A few months ago I was the same, hated the fact he's United manager but didn't hate him.

Since then the lineup against Olympiakos, the aspiring to be City, the Liverpool are favourites, the general ineptness has made me hate him, and everything he stands for.
 
Feed Me said:
It would make a difference, because it'd be the club's official TV station having a pop at the manager. That wouldn't be proper.
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It'd be someone who cares for the club on the club's official TV station having a pop at Moyes, there is a difference. Moyes doesn't deserve special treatment simply because it'd be a pundit on MUTV doing the criticising.
 
Just wondering, do people on here really think he'll get sacked? He should go, but it won't surprise me if gets another year.
 
SirFergie said:
It'd be someone who cares for the club on the club's official TV station having a pop at Moyes, there is a difference. Moyes doesn't deserve special treatment simply because it'd be a pundit on MUTV doing the criticising.
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There's plenty of channels via which Moyes can be criticised. From a business point of view, it wouldn't be correct for open criticism to be broadcast from the club's official TV station. It wouldn't play out well in the eyes of investors, shareholders, etc.
 
Amir said:
The annoying thing is, we're NOT rebuilding. We haven't really started yet. Just added a couple of players, three if you include Adnan. Rebuilding is what Fergie did after a couple of years at United. Moyes just took the same team, added to it, and prompty made it far worse.

Rebuilding my arse.
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You're correct, its such a myth. Just another excuse for Moyes' complete ineptitude. And a squad that he failed to strengthen adequately in 2 transfer windows. Yes, we needed some players but ripping apart a whole squad that has challenged and won trophies nearly every season is the stupidest thing anyone could ever do. And isn't it amazing that some of our fans call the same players crap who have brought us so much success over the years?

In a way we have had an unfashionable winning squad for some time now. It's not got as many star names as other big spending clubs so some muppets (especially in the media) see us as inferior to them, even though we challenge and often finish ahead of them. It's all down to one manager, or one player, who wins it single-handedly.

But they ignore that it is a squad game. Like this rubbish about which Utd player would get in other clubs' first XI. It's irrelevant cos that same first XI won't play 38 league games plus cup games a season. As a squad we have had more depth than they have. How many times have we heard City moan about Aguero, Toure and others being injured? And they're not making the same comparisons about the Liverpool squad, are they?
 
PlayerOne said:
Just wondering, do people on here really think he'll get sacked? He should go, but it won't surprise me if gets another year.
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I don't think he'll get sacked. Wouldn't be surprised if there is an appetite at board level to get rid, but they've backed themselves into a corner with all the syrupy statements after SAF retired.

Thing is, I don't think anyone would accuse United of knee jerking - Moyes has been a disaster and has already been afforded more time than any other club would have given. The statistics in 2014 make for horrific reading.
 
Shinjisan said:
Don't think there is any point in sacking him with 4 games left. He would leave with mutual consent at the end of the season.

That is how I see it.
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Do you honestly beleive he will leave by mutual consent? Look at his post-game interviews. The guy thinks he's doing a good job and that he's unlucky and it's all the players' fault.
 
Feed Me said:
I don't think he'll get sacked. Wouldn't be surprised if there is an appetite at board level to get rid, but they've backed themselves into a corner with all the syrupy statements after SAF retired.

Thing is, I don't think anyone would accuse United of knee jerking - Moyes has been a disaster and has already been afforded more time than any other club would have given. The statistics in 2014 make for horrific reading.
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Agree. Said it elsewhere but in essence sacking DM is sacking SAF and everyone else in the club associated with this appointment. That is going to make the infrastructure very weak, and send disharmony throughout the club, especially when prominent spokes people have consistently supported the appointment, including Sir Bobby.

Gonna hit the share price hard too.

One of the hardest things to change in a institution like Utd is its culture. Even harder if your still consulting with the manager that created it. Dm's almost felt obliged to doff his cap every time SAF names mention. Cant be easy walking around a club that has images and homages to the previous Manager. Especially given he's still alive, still here and making DM's homework from the stands....

The next step is not going to be easy, and on reflection for this reason, I don't see DM getting the sack yet cause the next manager will only have the same issue.
 
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Feed Me said:
I don't think he'll get sacked. Wouldn't be surprised if there is an appetite at board level to get rid, but they've backed themselves into a corner with all the syrupy statements after SAF retired.

Thing is, I don't think anyone would accuse United of knee jerking - Moyes has been a disaster and has already been afforded more time than any other club would have given. The statistics in 2014 make for horrific reading.
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He got a fair chance IMO. He would not have last a whole season at any other club, let alone a top club. I honestly don't the point in giving him another chance, even he comes good - he isn't the manager this club needs.
 
Ralph1386 said:
Do you honestly beleive he will leave by mutual consent? Look at his post-game interviews. The guy thinks he's doing a good job and that he's unlucky and it's all the players' fault.
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By mutual consent or through a clause in his contract or whatever. After last night, I seriously believe that end of his reign at our club is inevitable at the season's close. To me, his interview last night actually displayed hopelessness and despair. He looks overwhelmed at this stage, not arrogant.
 
Feed Me said:
I don't think he'll get sacked. Wouldn't be surprised if there is an appetite at board level to get rid, but they've backed themselves into a corner with all the syrupy statements after SAF retired.

Thing is, I don't think anyone would accuse United of knee jerking - Moyes has been a disaster and has already been afforded more time than any other club would have given. The statistics in 2014 make for horrific reading.
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I'm not so sure he won't get sacked. If reports are to believed about big money being spent this summer, do you really think the Glazers will trust him to spend it? I cannot see them doing that after this season. They're not stupid and will definitely know the players are against him, and have sacked managers in the past for the same reason.

SAF has a lot of power but in the end, they would decide. And it's not like the fans would criticise them for doing it either, or many others. If SAF and Bobby are still backing him, they must be in a minority by now and I think they would have to give in at some time, for their own sakes and reputation. They did back Moyes but they don't owe him anything.
 
Shinjisan said:
By mutual consent or through a clause in his contract or whatever. After last night, I seriously believe that end of his reign at our club is inevitable at the season's close. To me, his interview last night actually displayed hopelessness and despair. He looks overwhelmed at this stage, not arrogant.
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I didn't see anything different yesterday that we haven't seen at points during this season, I really don't believe this is the straw that broke the camels back either, they wrote this season off a looong time ago.
 
Feed Me said:
There's plenty of channels via which Moyes can be criticised. From a business point of view, it wouldn't be correct for open criticism to be broadcast from the club's official TV station. It wouldn't play out well in the eyes of investors, shareholders, etc.
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Correct, which kind of rams home the point when it does happen like it apparently did yesterday although not to the point the daily fail makes out.
 
bobbyf said:
I'm not so sure he won't get sacked. If reports are to believed about big money being spent this summer, do you really think the Glazers will trust him to spend it? I cannot see them doing that after this season. They're not stupid and will definitely know the players are against him, and have sacked managers in the past for the same reason.

SAF has a lot of power but in the end, they would decide. And it's not like the fans would criticise them for doing it either, or many others. If SAF and Bobby are still backing him, they must be in a minority by now and I think they would have to give in at some time, for their own sakes and reputation. They did back Moyes but they don't owe him anything.
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I hope to God you're right. We're on the verge of a Liverpoolesque decline, and our decisions once this season ends will shape our outlook for the next five years. I hope the Glazers don't opt for a managed decline. People may say that's melodramatic, but no one thought we'd fall so badly within one season...
 
PlayerOne said:
Just wondering, do people on here really think he'll get sacked? He should go, but it won't surprise me if gets another year.
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I think he'll go at the end of the season. Sacking outright is a very blunt statement, but a performance related thing at the end of the season isn't really something which can be argued against.
 
SirFergie said:
Correct, which kind of rams home the point when it does happen like it apparently did yesterday although not to the point the daily fail makes out.
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Well there's enough callers on Mutv that they boradcast that are anti-moyes, its not really a total censorship state as its being out to be, theres a difference between a caller and presenter saying it though.
 
Wilson Litchmore said:
Agree. Said it elsewhere but in essence sacking DM is sacking SAF and everyone else in the club associated with this appointment. That is going to make the infrastructure very weak, and send disharmony throughout the club, especially when prominent spokes people have consistently supported the appointment, including Sir Bobby.

Gonna hit the share price hard too.

One of the hardest things to change in a institution like Utd is its culture. Even harder if your still consulting with the manager that created it. Dm's almost felt obliged to doff his cap every time SAF names mention.

The next step is not going to be easy, and on reflection for this reason, I don't see DM getting the sack yet cause the next manager will only have the same issue.
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Who says that? You really think SAF would be affected by Moyes' sacking or the infastructure of the club? He's made bad decisions before and this is just another one. He's a lot bigger than that. I just don't see him (or even Woodward) going out on a limb for Moyes any more than necessary when it would damage his own position or legacy. And if the club isn't in disharmony already after this poor season, then when is it?

SAF might have too much influence so maybe this is the time where he should take a step back. And what same issue will the next manager have? First they need to be able to do what Moyes most definitely cannot, manage our team and earn the respect of our players. Not as hard as you may think if they are the right person. And you think the Glazers will trust Moyes with £100-200m after this season plus the risk of not getting top 4 next season? I think not, especially if they know he has lost the players.

Feed Me said:
I hope to God you're right. We're on the verge of a Liverpoolesque decline, and our decisions once this season ends will shape our outlook for the next five years. I hope the Glazers don't opt for a managed decline. People may say that's melodramatic, but no one thought we'd fall so badly within one season...
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No, you're absolutely right. It could go that way. And I don't think they are as detached from the club as some may think.
 
A1X said:
I think he'll go at the end of the season. Sacking outright is a very blunt statement, but a performance related thing at the end of the season isn't really something which can be argued against.
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Yes, but Fergie and Charlton can fight for him to stay and be given time.
 
BennyBlanco said:
Well there's enough callers on Mutv that they boradcast that are anti-moyes, its not really a total censorship state as its being out to be, theres a difference between a caller and presenter saying it though.
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Why shouldn't David May be able to say something if it's true? By all accounts it wasn't even that bad what he said. There's a difference between that and totally laying into people one by one. Not everyone has to be a Roy Keane.
 
A1X said:
I think he'll go at the end of the season. Sacking outright is a very blunt statement, but a performance related thing at the end of the season isn't really something which can be argued against.
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I agree - they will wait until the end of the season so as not to humiliate him. There is no rational reason for giving him another season. This season has to my knowledge been the most disastrous performance by a major club in the modern era. Awful beyond any reasonable expectation and a reminder to our hubristic decision makers that leading managers do not emerge from mid-table on the wrong side of 50.
 
David Moyes humiliated while Danny Welbeck seeks United exit

David Moyes was expecting the boos. The last time the Manchester United manager was here, he was given a guard of honour, recognition of the 11 years he served Everton with such distinction. He knew this would be different. He might have felt the fury and the venom was unwarranted, he might have been surprised to see one fan, at the behest of a bookmaker, dressed as the Grim Reaper, and it might still have hurt, but he knew he would have to endure a line of fire. He could, at least, steel himself.

What the Scot will not have been expecting, what will have hurt all the more, was the chant that went up with a quarter of an hour to play. Everton were leading by two goals to nil, and had been since half-time. Their visitors never gave so much as a hint that their lead might be in any peril whatsoever. The home side would have the win they required in their chase for the Champions League; United’s gossamer hopes of beating them to fourth place had long since been shredded. The game was meandering towards its inevitable conclusion.

And so, at a break in play, Everton’s supporters started serenading their former manager. It started in the Gwladys Street End, but soon it was booming out from the Park End, too. It was not a song, in truth, that they proffered regularly when he was here, but now they could not resist.

“Moyesie, give us a wave,” they chanted, gleefully. It was mocking, it was crowing. In fewer than 90 minutes, Moyes had gone from a target of hate to a figure of fun. There is nothing more damning than that.

He tried, as always, to put a positive spin on it after the game, to suggest they did not deserve to be two down — thanks to a Leighton Baines penalty and a wonderful, deft finish from Kevin Mirallas — at half-time. He believed it so much that he repeated the same sentence three times. He focused on how United “had the bulk of the ball” and “played very well” in the opening period, his only concession to stark truth that his team “did not create enough chances”.

The manager’s desire to paint an upbeat picture, his refusal to criticise his players in public after every gut-wrenching setback, is understandable; it could even be described as admirable. It is not, though, realistic. The veneer has long since worn off. His stance is designed not to erode the sanctity of the dressing room, to keep problems private. Things are beyond that. He is starting to erode the values of the club.

If Moyes genuinely believes United played well here, then the question of whether his standards dovetail with those of a success-soaked club has to be raised.

There were occasional flashes of hope for the visiting team — Juan Mata and Shinji Kagawa appear to be broadly on the same wavelength — but that is not enough for United. Seeing a lot of the ball and doing nothing with it and playing a plodding, predictable style of football, likewise.

The strain is starting to tell. Stories emerged on the morning of the game that Danny Welbeck, a substitute here, is considering leaving Old Trafford, departing the club he supported as a boy in Longsight, frustrated at his lack of opportunities.

All Moyes could do was reiterate that the England forward “is important to me and to the club” and claim that there are “changes to be made” in the summer, ones to improve things.

It is interesting enough that the story emerged — such things tend to happen at unhappy clubs, not ones where players and management are in sync — but it is more important still that the stories are true.

Welbeck does want to go. It is not hard to understand his motivation. What, precisely, is keeping him, beyond vague promises that things at the club will get better? In the immediate future, there is scant reason to believe they will.

The gulf between Moyes’s new team and his old team was staggering, humiliating. The Scot left Goodison Park last summer believing he could take the club no farther. What became clear here is that he had taken himself as far as he could. Those are not the same thing. Not at all.

Everton were brimming with energy and invention from the start. They should have taken the lead through Steven Naismith, the Scot ballooning over after Romelu Lukaku had nodded a long ball from Sylvain Distin into his path, before Baines converted from the penalty spot after Phil Jones had handled the Belgian’s shot. Lukaku and Naismith spurned chances to extend the lead before the outstanding Séamus Coleman slipped Mirallas through to double the advantage.

They did not extend their lead in the second half, but not through lack of chances: Lukaku and, twice, Naismith, went close.

What was more eye-catching was the ease with which Everton swatted United aside. There was no fight, no gumption, no wit, no belief. They crumbled. It was, put bluntly, pathetic.

It is futile to try to single out a low point from this season of unending nadirs, but, for Moyes at least, this will have been as agonising as anything.

He left Everton believing he was going on to better things. Instead, he finds himself locked in a never-ending spiral of despair, while his former charges race ever onwards.

After he finished his Panglossian analysis of the match in the press lounge at Goodison Park, he stood up to leave. He walked through the wrong door. It felt entirely apposite. @RorySmithTimes
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http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/football/article4068041.ece

The highlighted part is pretty damning, Moyes has become a bit of joke to the public.
 
Feed Me said:
In fairness, it's the club's in house television station. They acted totally appropriately in that situation. It'd have been worse if MUTV broadcast a programme in which Moyes was having strips torn off him. Don't air your dirty linen and public and all that...
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I can see that. But if you don't allow for just A LITTLE leeway, then there's no point to it.
 
I think there's been a subtle distancing from SAF's support for Moyes recently. Besides, it always struck me that SAF habitually describes DM as a 'good' manager rather than great or even potentially great. SAF gave David his big opportunity but both men know that it was up to Moyes to make the most of it; SAF can't, and won't, support the indefensible.
 
SirFergie said:
Why shouldn't David May be able to say something if it's true? By all accounts it wasn't even that bad what he said. There's a difference between that and totally laying into people one by one. Not everyone has to be a Roy Keane.
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Its just the fact its pretty damning, I'm aware they're paid for their opinions but its best left to say negative views like: "Today wasn't good enough" "Cant go on with these type of performances" etc post result, saying hes "out of his depth" is quite final verdict from a presenter employed by the club, best left to callers to suggest rather than admitting as much in black and white.
 
SteveJ said:
I think there's been a subtle distancing from SAF's support for Moyes recently. Besides, it always struck me that SAF habitually describes DM as a 'good' manager rather than great or even potentially great. SAF gave David his big opportunity but both men know that it was up to Moyes to make the most of it; SAF can't, and won't, support the indefensible.
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I said this yesterday but I think Fergie taking on the Harvard is pretty telling. It's almost like he wants to distance himself from the club and football. He will most likely spend a lot of time in America too.
 
Wilson Litchmore said:
Agree. Said it elsewhere but in essence sacking DM is sacking SAF and everyone else in the club associated with this appointment. That is going to make the infrastructure very weak, and send disharmony throughout the club, especially when prominent spokes people have consistently supported the appointment, including Sir Bobby.

Gonna hit the share price hard too.

One of the hardest things to change in a institution like Utd is its culture. Even harder if your still consulting with the manager that created it. Dm's almost felt obliged to doff his cap every time SAF names mention. Cant be easy walking around a club that has images and homages to the previous Manager. Especially given he's still alive, still here and making DM's homework from the stands....

The next step is not going to be easy, and on reflection for this reason, I don't see DM getting the sack yet cause the next manager will only have the same issue.
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Nah, it's nothing of that sort. Manchester United is a huge organisation which in most ways has an extremely strong standing. The academy is great, the facilities are top notch, the squad is very very good, and the financial power is abundant. Getting rid of Moyes isn't going to have any far reaching affects other than breeding a lot of positivity around the club and among it's fans. Change is part of any business and we'd move on from the Moyes debacle very quickly, replace him and everything would function as it always does without any major panic and collapse.

Also, I don't think the people who were "associated" with his appointment are crucial to our future at all. If SAF and Sir Bobby were to not be involved, it's not a big deal. Business don't collapse when two very old men who aren't even very involved completely cut off. Besides, I have no idea why SAF or SBC would throw their toys out like children if "their man" was fired. They haven't adopted David Moyes FFS.

The way I see it is that it's simple. Get a man with a modern vision in who has the personality and ability to see it come to life, and let him impose his own ideas on the club properly.
 
Ralph1386 said:
Do you honestly beleive he will leave by mutual consent? Look at his post-game interviews. The guy thinks he's doing a good job and that he's unlucky and it's all the players' fault.
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Sorry to break this to you, but managers don't necessarily say exactly what they believe when talking to the press. To say Moyes himself believes he's doing a good job based on comments in the media is stupid, and most likely inaccurate. Of course he's not going to say "LOL, did you see that clueless substitution I made? How I kept Rooney on the pitch the entire game despite him being the worst player? HAHA, I'm fecking shit at this. It's good money though!"

Wilson Litchmore said:
Agree. Said it elsewhere but in essence sacking DM is sacking SAF and everyone else in the club associated with this appointment. That is going to make the infrastructure very weak, and send disharmony throughout the club, especially when prominent spokes people have consistently supported the appointment, including Sir Bobby.
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No it's not. Don't make it more than it is. Moyes had the full support when he was appointed, but it's silly to believe that everyone would still be against the sacking to the point where they'd do anything about it at all. They know how the players feel, and they know that United this season is way below what's to be expected. IF any of them genuinely believes Moyes has done his job this season, maybe it wouldn't be so terrible with some changes - club legends or not.[/QUOTE]
 
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