Yeah, it's nonsense to defend a manager who's done a bad job by saying much better managers could also do poorly. It's possible, but logic would suggest that a better manager would, funnily enough, do a better job. The possibility, however small, that they wouldn't should not be a reason to keep Moyes in the job. Anyone who would keep Moyes over Klopp/Mourinho/Guardiola if the opportunity ever came up because there's a possibility the latter three wouldn't do as well needs their footballing brain re-examined.
Moyes So Far!
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Yeah, it's nonsense to defend a manager who's done a bad job by saying much better managers could also do poorly. It's possible, but logic would suggest that a better manager would, funnily enough, do a better job. The possibility, however small, that they wouldn't should not be a reason to keep Moyes in the job. Anyone who would keep Moyes over Klopp/Mourinho/Guardiola if the opportunity ever came up because there's a possibility the latter three wouldn't do as well needs their footballing brain re-examined.
If that happens then everyone will concede that it's Moyes that has to go.
Are you saying it's absolutely impossible for those managers to have a bad season?
I think the word you are looking for is unlikely.
Perhaps. But the question here and now isn't whether one would prefer, in what looks like a sheer fantasy scenario, to have Klopp take over United in a month's time. If Moyes goes after the season the likelihood of getting any of those three to take over is very slim.
Right now there seems to be an attitude of "anyone but Dave" among many fans. I hope the board don't share it if they are indeed thinking about replacing him. To hire someone who would absolutely, positively be better for us in the long run - is going to be very difficult. What if Moyes is partly right about the rebuilding? What if the structure at Old Trafford is so Fergie-infused from A to Z after nearly thirty years that it's absolutely necessary to shake things up thoroughly?
Moyes may be out of his league - but he may still have a point. The next bloke could be facing problems he hasn't foreseen. It will be absolutely essential that the board acknowledge whatever "structural" problems United may have - if such problems exist but aren't recognized, we could hire any number of en vogue managers and still struggle.
Exactly. It is impossible for Mourinho/Pep/Klopp to have as a bad season as Moyes is having this year. Not unlikely but completely impossible. The last time Mourinho/Pep have finished lower than in the second place (in a season they started as manager) is never, so there is nothing to suggest that they will just decide to finish 6th or 7th.
When was the last time Mourinho managed any team to 6th, never mind the reigning champions?
Their records indicate they're likely to do a better job and most of the time, they will do.
What happens if we sign Messi and he starts playing like Young? It's just as unlikely to happen.
I think we all know that isn't going to happen. Any of those managers you have mentioned would have us in the top four easily. It seems like this season has lowered many fans expectations. Getting us into the top 4 isn't an achievement, it's to be expected. Any competent manager would have is in the top 4. Fact! (yes even Rafa).
I hope you're not a scientist.
Fantastic post.
One of the main reasons I've lost interest in posting (not just here but in other threads, too) is the venomous bile directed towards any of us who have the audacity to back our manager.
As you said, it's just one angry circle-jerk in here and probably best left alone.
The funny thing is that yes, I am (or at-least hope to be).Of course, impossible is a very big word but seriously as Tomalonge himself said, it is unlikely. Now being serious, I can say that it is as unlikely as something can happen in football, even more unlikely than Greece winning the Euro on 2004. As I said both Mourinho and Pep haven't ever finished lower than in the second place and despite popular beliefs both of them never started with perfect teams (Barca were 10 points below VIllareal when Pep came and he sold their best two players immediately). They are really great managers - already on top 10-top 20 of all time, with potential to go as the greatest ever managers - and Moyes franly speaking is a third or fourth rate manager that never is his career was on current top 20 managers. Expecting Pep being as bad as Moyes is as unlikely as expecting Xavi passing as bad as Parker at passing, or expecting Beckham to cross as bad as Bebe. It is as unlikely to happen, that I think you can forgiven for saying that it is impossible.
That's the important point to me. Moyes never was the soft option or the safe choice, he was a high risk appointment. If it comes off then that's great - the club and the man fit together and you've got someone committed to the club's future in charge.
For Madrid, Barca or even a club like Bayern taking a gamble on sentiment (us appointing OGS say) or potential (a Martinez or a Pochettino) or even a value manager, not proven at the top level (like Moyes) is easy. For us, it was dangerous, because we can easily be seduced by longevity as a principle rather than simply as a good model. It's a model that only works if the right man is in place.
Yeah, it was more of a scenario another poster suggested that I was replying to. I think there's little chance myself any of those three would take over if Moyes did go.
I agree that the board would have to be very careful if they were picking a replacement, but if I'm being honest I think the majority of top managers would be able to do a better job than what Moyes has done. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be careful if selecting a new manager, but even with the re-building job being very difficult and long-term, I think Moyes has shown a lot outside of that this season to show that he's just not cut out for this job. There's been a lot about him so far: his playing style, his general demeanour in interviews, which has nothing to do with the previous manager and suggest he's not good enough.
Even if we still struggle under a new manager, I'd like to think that the vast majority of top managers would have been capable of doing better than 6th/7th for us. And the other poster made a point of “what if” someone like Mourinho or Klopp finished in that position, as if we shouldn't hire them because of that small possibility. I've accepted that they won't be anywhere near here next season, and that Moyes probably will be, but if we were offered managers on that calibre then it would be a no brainer as to who we would choose.
Where have all the star players keen to sign for Utd gone? He's now warning us it may be difficult to sign anyone before pre-season.
http://www1.skysports.com/football/...rly?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
http://www1.skysports.com/football/...rly?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
I think this is pretty spot on from Baines.
It's worrying that a few Everton players have said that this season. A few have the word "positive" and from what we've seen this season it makes sense why they say that.
This will go down well.
Seriously, though - if he is, in fact, planning a 150m overhaul, he must have some kind of plan beyond casually dropping a bid here and there in the hope that someone'll bite. Maybe he's just trying to play down the wildest rumours that have been going around. He's not a smooth operator when giving quotes to the press, as we all know by now.
It's OK. He's said he's going to try.
He's not the first to say this though. One Everton player, I forget who, was asked about the difference in training methods and he replied "less Scottish." Not quite sure what this means but I'd guess that they no longer have to run their bollocks off until they puke (according to Phil Neville). That Dutch coach with the opinions may be a bit of a gobshite but maybe he's got a point.
That's exactly the type of a manager we needed after SAF. A positive one, the one who believes in his own players, inspires them and is well respected by them. Let's see what we get on Sunday, I have no doubt that the Toffees will be more fired-up than us.
It's been a few weeks since the last big, big disappointment result wise against City, so people from both camps are pretty level headed at this point. I think a little perspective can make things clearer. A lot of the over the top hysterical people probably weren't posting much during the little break anyway.
My general opinion on Moyes that he's not the man for the job hasn't really changed, but of course I can't say for certain that he won't have a better go next season with a few new signings and some well needed breathing space. Perhaps he will. Thing is, I haven't seen convincing arguments from the people who back him that he deserves/needs one or two more seasons to put his stamp on things. All I see are new reasons for the man to go. Actually, I genuinely fear what his stamp on the team will be.
People will say 'Well, so what? We've enjoyed 20 seasons of unprecedented success, we've no right to stay on top forever. Maybe a few seasons being the new Arsenal/Liverpool(the old more likeable version!) isn't the catastrophe it's made out to be', or something to that effect... and that's fine. Good for you. But those people need to realize that the standard has been set, whether they like it or not. Especially because of the debt. We're probably one of the three most recognizable names in world football, and I don't think we should allow the club to be a mere spectator to title run ins, cup finals and European competitions. From what I've seen this season, though I'm certainly no expert, we have a manager who's quite 'capable' of making us exactly that.
A few wins in dead rubbers doesn't come close to changing that. Tomorrow will certainly be interesting, but it won't change much for me either way. Nor will the final three matches. The first 8-10 matches of next season is hugely important for Moyes, and a good start will get most fans believing again I think - regardless of how much animosity they must feel towards the man at this point.
I just can't see it, though.
Jagielka talked about Martinez's contrasting approach during pre-season:
Later in the season, Tim Howard also talked about the new focus under Martinez:
The trouble with Mr. Gobshite is that he directed the very same criticism at Fergie. So, either he was hopelessly "Scottish" too - or Mr. Gobshite is a...gobshite. Much of what he says about RVP and the stone age treatment he's had at United would also hit the medical staff and the more technical side of the fitness regime - and the latter is at least supposed to be state of the art. Unless Moyes has replaced all the computers and whatnot with leeches and good old highland remedies.
I think it's clear Moyes is a bit of a hard-arse compared to other managers. But in theory you can make your players work their bollocks off AND have them practice a bit with the ball too. I've never seen Dave in action on the training pitch, though, so I've no idea what he does there. He is supposed to be an avid student of the game. My guess would be that his methods aren't completely stone age, but I can easily see him as someone who would emphasize the "Scottish" side of things much more than a continental coach. To what extent, however? I've no idea. Doubt Mr Gobshite knows everything about United's training sessions either.
That made me chuckle. Thing is, players talk and I wouldn't mind betting that the Dutch geezer has spoken to some and is a bit better informed than the average supporter.
It's not a big surprise. Before Moyes warning. I was already expecting maximum 3 new signings and minimum 2 new signings. World Cup would never be the best time to sign a lot of players.
we need 5 players at least. Anyway Moyes has been given the minimum of getting to the Europa Cup....the Everton match becomes crucial.
Where does this come from?
For all Mr.Gobshite names he has got this season, he has been spot on on everything about Moyes. Coincidence?
He criticizes almost everyone, but he never criticized Ferguson on the level he criticizes Moyes. In fact, it was widely knows that SAF didn't do the training at all, and Mr.Gobshite had very good words for Maulensteen (we can be conspiracy theorists and say that he loves Dutch people - being Dutch himself - and hates Scotish people). In fact the only time he has criticized SAF - I am aware of - is a few months ago when he said that SAF is the main problem because he chose Moyes in order to be able to still pull the strings, knowing that a Mourinho or Pep wouldn't let him have any power on United, a view which was shared from many people here.
The funny thing is that Raymond Verheijen on the beginning was a parody figure on the Caf (similarily to a RAWK poster - PhaseOfPlay - who was quoted extensively on the summer here as a joke, but since then he hasn't been quoted anymore) but he has been absolutely correct on all his predictions about United. Of course, we can always continue saying that he doesn't know anything and is just a bitter man, or we can also think that Moyes is actually just a pretty shit manager (for a top club) who is pretty clueless about the modern coaching. All Everton' players talking about how much better things are now, how they play with ball so much more (which very surprisingly now they are also playing much better, who would have thought that training with ball benefits more than the rugby style medieval training?!), Moyes admitting that he overtrained RVP (and then RVP getting injured every few weeks, despite that on the last 2 years he had 0 injuries) on the preseason etc, may mean that probably, just probably, Mr. Gobshite and the others who have criticized Moyes' studentous paleolithic coaching methods are right.
i.e. please don't sack me, you can't.
That PhullofSpray gobshite on RAWK is still a gobshite. People will claim he's been insightful and informed but he's just struck lucky. I recall him slating our chances last season too and we walked the league.
I look forward to quoting his nonsense next season. Let him enjoy his few months in the sun.
I look forward to quoting his nonsense next season. Let him enjoy his few months in the sun.
(Hey. You're back and now so am i. No getting drunk!
)Q1.) What exactly do mean he's adaptable? Teams/formation/style of play?
Q2) You said your happy to give him another season if the board thinks it's an acceptable risk. But don't you think its risky? He hasn't exactly inspired confidence in any way. If he fecks up and spends a fortune and then gets sacked at Christmas.
Where does that leave us and the next potential manager who wants to bring in his own players...with nothing in the kitty and a team full of Moyes players. Ones who only just signed contracts (likely big ones due to fact we've no CL to offer) 6months previously?
(Hey. You're back and now so am i. No getting drunk!
Q1.) What exactly do mean he's adaptable? Teams/formation/style of play?
Q2) You said your happy to give him another season if the board thinks it's an acceptable risk. But don't you think its risky? He hasn't exactly inspired confidence in any way. If he fecks up and spends a fortune and then gets sacked at Christmas.
Where does that leave us and the next potential manager who wants to bring in his own players...with nothing in the kitty and a team full of Moyes players. Ones who only just signed contracts (likely big ones due to fact we've no CL to offer) 6months previously?
1) Yes.
2) It is risky but for me that's part of being a football supporter. If the club deem it an acceptable risk that isn't going to feck us over for years to come then I'm okay with that.
Well - both could be true, right? Moyes could be pretty shit (for a top club) AND Verheijen could be a bitter gobshite.
Like I said, I don't know what Moyes is up to during training sessions. He could have 'em practice playing bagpipes and force feeding 'em haggis for all I know. But the man is presumably somewhat up to date with what goes on elsewhere in the modern football world. I think it's a matter of slight differences rather than enormous ones - and Verheijen, whether he is right about Moyes or not, is a man who preaches a certain gospel to the exclusion of any other method. And his own method is by no means universally recognized as the best or - indeed - most up-to-date one either.
Wasn't it rumoured that he - Verheijen - was in the newbies, by the way?
We got one who says he needs six more world class players before he can win anything and that any manager would struggle with this squad. Don't you think he's positive?
Well, considering Everton ALWAYS gave us a torrid time at Goodison, they've still got a chance at Champions League qualification (more than us, anyway), and their old manager is returning, I'd say there's a strong chance of that happening.
Did you ridicule Ferguson when we gave limp performances away to teams like Everton, and clamour for a manager like Moyes who "instills belief" into his players?
Nonsense.
Just when I've forgotten some of the absolutely shocking quotes from Moyes this season, someone in this thread reminds me.
The man has had a mare.
That's not true at all, is it.
So, the general consensus now seems to be that we actually do need five new signings, yet Moyes is still to blame for not having this lot winning all around him...
RedCafe logic.
RedCafe logic.
More often than not, yes.
I struggle to remember us going there and winning with the ease we did at Martinez's Wigan, for example.
Quite worrying thw number of his former players coming out and saying the same things about moyes, that he instills a negative mentality.
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