Moyes So Far!

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Raul Madrid said:
True. The team that won the league by a good distance last year should not drop to 7th so fast. Its more bad management than bad players imo. If even he was challenging then he would have some excuse, but for me he really has no excuses. The carling cup display vs sunderland in the second leg was one of the worst games I ever saw united play. I don't think moyes has done enough to deserve to spend 200 million. He could yet prove me wrong, but I don't think I have seen anything to suggest otherwise. I feel sorry for him as he seems like a nice man, but at the end of the day he is being paid millions and all he seems to be doing is destroy united. I would imagine a lot of people would be jealous of him to be in that scenario where they get paid millions to do a bad job and maybe be kept on.
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When, over the last few months, do you think Madrid would have stuck the boot in Moyes if he had been performing similarly for them?
 
NK86 said:
When, over the last few months, do you think Madrid would have stuck the boot in Moyes if he had been performing similarly for them?
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:lol: You should know how Madrid treat mangers by now. He would have been sacked 3 or 4 times by now. Im not saying that madrids approach with mangers is right though. There are certainly a lot of managers that we should have kept like del bosque, capello and imo mourinho. I think he could have improved us more if he stayed but we would have had to have sold some players but I think in the long term it would have been good for us ( I think if roman doesn't interfere then mourinho could have have a similar career to ferguson if he wanted). I definitely believe that he could be a long term manager but these days all big clubs have players that have too much power. I hope ancelotti stays for a long time too as there are few better managers than him and no matter what happens between now and the end of the season, we certainly have not had a season to be ashamed of and have already won one trophy, albeit not a major one.
 
Raul Madrid said:
:lol: You should know how Madrid treat mangers by now. He would have been sacked 3 or 4 times by now. Im not saying that madrids approach with mangers is right though. There are certainly a lot of managers that we should have kept like del bosque, capello and imo mourinho. I think he could have improved us more if he stayed but we would have had to have sold some players but I think in the long term it would have been good for us ( I think if roman doesn't interfere then mourinho could have have a similar career to ferguson if he wanted). I definitely believe that he could be a long term manager but these days all big clubs have players that have too much power. I hope ancelotti stays for a long time too as there are few better managers than him and no matter what happens between now and the end of the season, we certainly have not had a season to be ashamed of and have already won one trophy, albeit not a major one.
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I know how Madrid treats it's managers and also know that he would have been sacked multiple times by now. Just curious to know what would have been the first tipping point. Would the 4-1 derby defeat very early in the campaign been enough to boot him?

Also, I would not be surprised if Perez sacks Ancelloti if you don't win at least one of the league/CL.
 
NK86 said:
I know how Madrid treats it's managers and also know that he would have been sacked multiple times by now. Just curious to know what would have been the first tipping point. Would the 4-1 derby defeat very early in the campaign been enough to boot him?

Also, I would not be surprised if Perez sacks Ancelloti if you don't win at least one of the league/CL.
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I am very confident in saying he wont be sacked. We kept mourinho after only winning the cup in his first year, because he (like ancelotti) has good pedigree and can definitely win with us. Perez seems a bit wiser this time I would also say. Perez also is a fan of ancelotti as he tried to sign him many times over the years from 2000 onwards. I would say as soon as we were clearly out of the title fight by Christmas would have been the moment the club would have taken action as we would want to have a strong finish to the season and get through to the quarter finals. Also it would be terrible for so many reasons if Madrid missed out on the cl.
 
Not sure if posted already

‘They are still the league champions and they haven’t lost anyone,’ said Martinez. ‘It’s the opposite. They have two players on top.

‘United’s squad is bigger and better than people are trying to make out.’

Moyes has suggested he inherited an ageing group from Sir Alex Ferguson, but Martinez believes Jose Mourinho has proved that age is no obstacle by turning Chelsea into contenders.

He added: ‘Who are these United veterans? Rio Ferdinand? How many games has Rio played? Not many and Ryan Giggs hasn’t played many, either.

‘You could look at Chelsea and say they are more of an ageing squad. In football, not everything is straightforward — there’s no black and white.

‘An ageing squad if you win becomes an experienced squad with knowhow. If you lose, it becomes the players have no legs. It’s something in between those extremes.

‘You look at Chelsea, title contenders, but squad-wise worse than United.’
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Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...s-Manchester-United-crisis.html#ixzz2zJ64g78D
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mazhar13 said:
I'm hoping that I haven't unintentionally made @Shamwow a Moyes supporter lol.

I really don't think Moyes can be proactive given the pressure of expectation placed on Moyes with this job. I think what Sir Alex is trying to do is to try to settle him down so that he can actually play some proactive football like his Preston days. However, I don't ever think he'll be proactive and instead will be overly defensive just to be safe and try to get the 3 points George Graham style.
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Pressure comes with the job. In fact considering the low level of tolerance that some clubs have towards their managers you could argue Moyes has been getting off lightly.

There's been...Very little media criticism, backing from senior figures at the club. Even being applauded by the fans on the pitch at Old Trafford.

But...writing with my own thoughts.
I can put up with all dowdy press conferences
I can put up with all the dopey comments
I can even deal with negative football (I wanted Jose)

WHAT I CAN NOT DEAL WITH IS HIS IDIOTIC DITHERING...

(rant warning :mad:)

TACTICALLY
No set style of play
No set formation
No idea what his best 11 is
(We're 9 months into the season and one month away it from ending. FFS He should know these three by now. Could you imagine what would be said if Mourinho, Rodgers, Pellegrini were still piddling about figuring out their formations, tactics and selections at this stage. They'd be accused of "Not knowing what their doing.")

Says "We need midfielders!" then goes and bleedin' signs 2 players whose best position is the same as Rooney, Kagawa and potentially Januzaj...which then creates himself a problem...so now when everyones fit he'll resort back to playing his 2 signings out of position just to try and justify (to the board I think) his purchasing of them.

Inability to react and make effective changes during games
Just sits there. Rubs his finger on his bottom lip debating whether -to have a Cherry Bakewell or a Jam tart after his dinner-
Plays players out of position
Because in his mind Mata's the next Gareth Bale and Fellaini is the next Bryan Robson.
Plays players injured
Moysie logic = a player with one leg is better than one with two.

Plays players out of form
Because form is temporary...class is permanent...Step forward Ashley Young
To afraid to drop big players even if it allows the team a better overall balance.
Moyes says it works fine. Yep...and when a pigeon sh*ts on you its 'Good Luck" ..

His abysmal record of 3 wins in 15 against the top ten premier league teams this season. Not to mention his own fecking awful statistic of 43 games 0 wins against the top 4 away from home.
This suggests to me that he has so far...he has been tactically outwitted so many times...it's gotten to the point of embarrassment. Even bang average teams and managers are nailing us.
Although maybe it is understandable. Why? may u ask.
After the recent 3-0 drubbing at Stamford Bridge a leak comprising of Jose Mourinho's and David Moyes pre-match gameplans were published online..available for all compare and evaluate the difference between the 2 in tactical qualities.
Moyes-Funny-Tactics.jpg


...and remember Sir Bobby said "Mourinho's not a Man Utd manager" and says in Moyes "We've got the right man!" :lol:

(rant over:D)
 
Even if you ignore the volume of evidence thrown up as to why hes not a Man Utd manager this year, the one stat Twisted with Power brings up which continually interests me is his zero wins against the big 4 away, I mean how is that possible in 10 years, Steve Kean beat us with his Blackburn side around Christmas a couple years back, even that one, single result has been one more than Moyes managed in over a decade, there must be a serious underlining mentality issue there, and it stems from the manager, Sir Alex always had his players believing they could get a result anywhere, the guy doesn't have the mentality for a United manager,
Anyway sod it, even I'm sick of my own and others "Dear diary, I hate Moyes today because..." rants during this 10 days of Moyes, games soon up, hope to God we have something different and positive to discuss.
 
NK86 said:
I know how Madrid treats it's managers and also know that he would have been sacked multiple times by now. Just curious to know what would have been the first tipping point. Would the 4-1 derby defeat very early in the campaign been enough to boot him?

Also, I would not be surprised if Perez sacks Ancelloti if you don't win at least one of the league/CL.
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Pellegrini survived a 4-0 defeat by Alcorcon. Mourinho lost 5-0 to Barcelona. The press however would have been on his case instantly. Dissecting, analysing, creating computer graphics comparing him to other managers, studying his body language, breaking down every word he uttered.

They board would have been getting twitchy in November - preparing the kind of sack for Christmas that doesn't contain presents. December's form would have given him a reprieve. He'd have gone after the Stoke game at the start of February. The new guy would be expected to get them back into a CL place and would be sacked at the end of the season whether he succeeded or not.

Or something.

The great thing about giving a manager a long run is that it allows him to think about the team in two years time or five years time as well as this year. He can look at the age profile of his squad, try out players in new roles or formations, he can take risks.

The great thing about having no hesitation about sacking managers is that you can make risky hiring decisions. You can hire someone without the pre-requisite experience for the job because you can move them on if they fail. In other words you can hire a Pep Guardiola or a David Moyes in absolute confidence that if they aren't what you'd hoped then you can sack them, and no hard feelings.
 
I think we are stuck with him for the foreseeable future.

I have absolutely no faith in the board doing the right thing and replacing him.
 
The applause he got during that home game is still something I find bewildering. He's been a fecking joke and has turned us into a laughing stock and what gets a hero's applause. There's something strange about that IMO. There's not resorting to booing and then there's that.
 
by Andy Mitten
There were other rumblings that all wasn't well as life after Ferguson began.

Moyes had complained about a fixture list that saw United play Chelsea, Liverpool and Manchester City in their first five league games. They didn't beat any of a trio that will almost certainly be England’s top three at the end of the season. Not at the start of the season in the league, or when they met second time around (although United did knock Liverpool out of the Capital One Cup). The club’s record against the top three is: P6 W0 D1 L5 F3 A14.

Numbers don't lie

Currently United are seventh, a position where they’ve spent most of this season. It’s been a huge disappointment; the club’s worst season campaign since 1988-89, when average crowds dipped below 40,000 and resentment built against the then-manager, Alex Ferguson. It's been a season of sustained disappointments and occasional farce, with pictures of the cracked Manchester United badge commonplace in media reports.

2013-14 will be the first time United have finished outside the top three since 1990-91. The team have suffered their worst home form -- six defeats -- for more than a decade and had a run of three consecutive losses for the first time since 2001.

To compound matters for the 75,000 who fill Old Trafford to capacity for each game, as well as the millions of fans around the globe, the league title looks as though it's going to the home of one of United's biggest rivals: Liverpool or Manchester City.

February of this year was the first time Liverpool were ahead of United at that stage of the season for 23 years.

A year earlier, United had 23 more points after 26 league games than at the same point in 2014. Football didn't begin with the advent of the Premier League in 1992, but United will finish this season with their lowest points tally since then.

Divided they stand?

Back in the summer of 2013, while his players were concerned about the loss not only of Ferguson, but of his coaches who didn't want to leave, Moyes was publicly confident at the start about United’s prospects and talked of his pleasure at working with such great players, as though he'd been handed the keys to a Ferrari after years in family saloon.

Privately, however, he consistently said he had a huge rebuilding job to do. He did it in calls to coaches a year ago as he sought to assemble his future staff, while football was still oblivious to Ferguson’s imminent departure.

He said it to people at Everton, too, and he has said it throughout this season. Moyes is entitled to that view and maybe he’s right, but it’s an odd thing to hear about a team that had just won the league by 11 points.

Moyes’ assessment also did not tally with that of his boss, chief executive Ed Woodward, who said that the squad needed "little re-tooling."

The summer transfer window became a farce and concluded with a deadline day that saw Ander Herrera's agent think his client was going to United, while United refused to pay Athletic Bilbao’s buyout clause. Marouane Fellaini did arrive at the 11th hour. We'll get to him.

Moyes was supported and cut some slack. After a limp Community Shield win -- 2-0 versus Wigan -- and a poor league start, fans expected the season to get going in September, then October, November, December, January ... It never did.

Six straight wins around the Christmas period was United’s best run and, as the club were still in four cup competitions at the time, expectations increased slightly.

Yet, by that time, the heavyweight champions had already been knocked down several times. United were 12th afterdefeat at home to West Brom on Sept. 28 and, not for the first time, chants of “sacked in the morning” would be heard from the away end.

The mood had begun to shift in the dressing room, too. After the 4-1 derby defeat versus Manchester City, heated words were exchanged among players. Wayne Rooney, United's best player on the day (as he has been for two-thirds of the season), wasn't happy. But then his teammates weren't overjoyed about his conduct during the summer when they fully expected him to leave Old Trafford following his fallout with Ferguson.

Other senior players, who Moyes had gone out of his way to meet before he was appointed, could have been his biggest allies, yet it will be a surprise if any of them are at the club next season.

Ferdinand let slip a few thoughts about the timing of team announcements that didn't cast Moyes in the best light. Maybe it was about getting used to a new boss.

Meanwhile, his defensive sidekick Nemanja Vidic trained as aggressively as Roy Keane ever did, but cut a different figure to the usually smiling Serb off the pitch. Both had been in far happier dressing rooms. Other players blamed each other and the training.

Robin van Persie might tell his own story of this season in years to come -- Javier Hernandez has hinted he will -- and he wouldn’t be alone in being underwhelmed by the squad management, with players feeling underused and then overused. In October, he was understood to be unhappy with training while the club were equally unhappy as they thought he was ready to play when he said he wasn't. A compromise was found.

Teachable moments

Moyes wasn’t the only one learning on the job. Woodward had been at Old Trafford for eight years, but he was new to his position as the leading executive.

In September, I interviewed him near United’s Mayfair office for more than two hours. It was days after the 4-1 hammering by City and, as well as getting baffling abuse because of the selection of Ashley Young (unlike at other major clubs, board members at United have no input on team selection), he’d learned not to be caught on television putting his head in his hands.

Woodward agreed that Dortmund coach Juergen Klopp was a “genius,” adding, “Their wage bill is lower than half the clubs in the Premier League, but he’s really got a lot out of them.”

It was an innocent appreciation. Klopp wasn’t on United’s radar because the club had given a six-year contract to Moyes and fully intended to honour it by entrusting him with the type of power Klopp has at Dortmund, yet he doesn’t enjoy the same confidence now.

One problem for Moyes has been his public persona. It’s not working and he should receive help -- just like Sir Alex Ferguson did -- to make him more comfortable and confident in front of the cameras and journalists.

The Mirror's David McDonnell was handed the dubious honour of being Moyes' first banned journalist. His crime was tweeting the United lineup hours before the game. Unlike his predecessor, however, Moyes carried out his banning quite calmly and let the journalist have his say: “So you're banning me for doing my job?” That sort of thing. But Moyes was firm and fair in saying it couldn't carry on.

On too many other occasions, though, Moyes has sent mixed messages, appearing too tense one day and too relaxed another. He doesn't project the image of a United manager, and he has often made comments more befitting of the status of his former club than his current one.

Saying he was “hopeful” of winning a game or describing Liverpool as “favourites” before a game at Old Trafford impressed no one. Nor did saying that he would have accepted a draw at Cardiff before the match, or stating he hoped to "make it difficult" against Newcastle United, or blaming referees, or the squad he was left with (Ferguson didn't appreciate that) and injuries.

After United lost at Stoke in February, Moyes said, "I don't know what we have to do to win." However well-intentioned it was, it came out badly.

Moyes has to make himself more comfortable, and the messages he sends out must be clearer. There were many unedifying aspects of how Ferguson dealt with the media, but he was effective in using them as a tool to help the football club he managed.

Moyes needs to give better thought to what he’s going to say, pre-empt and push his own agendas. He needs more confidence in his voice. That would come from winning games, which hasn’t happened enough.
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http://espnfc.com/blog/_/name/espnfcunited/id/13814?cc=5739

Part one, I'll post the second part below.
 
amolbhatia100 said:
The applause he got during that home game is still something I find bewildering. He's been a fecking joke and has turned us into a laughing stock and what gets a hero's applause. There's something strange about that IMO. There's not resorting to booing and then there's that.
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I was raging at those fans who applauded him. The fans that take the moral high ground and stick by him because SAF told us to are helping to keep him in the job. I refuse to believe any United fan could be happy with the job he has done. The fact that the Villa game was after back-to-back 3-0 home defeats to our two biggest rivals made the reception he got all the more baffling. By all means don't boo him but applauding him is equally wrong.
 
With less than a month remaining of a season that was basically over by mid-April, and ahead of his return to Everton on Sunday, Moyes faces multiple problems. It doesn’t help that he’s had players and staff consistently briefing against him. Where the former are concerned, the gripes have been about conservative, defensive football.

With the latter, meanwhile, it’s more personal. In mitigation, they were used to working under Ferguson and his all-conquering ways. It’s hardly Moyes’ fault that he doesn’t yet know not only the staff names as Ferguson did, but also the names of their partners, children and grandchildren.

So what happens now? Match-going fans have stayed supportive, though approval ratings for Moyes have dropped significantly -- especially after the away defeat at Olympiakos, followed by 3-0 home reverses to Liverpool and Manchester City. In Greece, 2,000 United fans began the match singing his name and finished it arguing among themselves about whether it was right to support a man who was failing.

Many hope the Glaswegian succeeds but doubt he can. If he was dismissed, there wouldn't be protests but, if he’s to get it right, he needs time to do a job. Online, the critics started on the first day of the season when United only beat Swansea 4-1and not 16-0.

Several players will depart in the summer. Ferdinand and fellow club legend Patrice Evra are likely to be among them, while Vidic has already confirmed he is going to Inter. Javier Hernandez is not pleased with his lack of minutes, either.

Another not content is Nani, who is currently as happy as a typical United fan is at the prospect of Liverpool or City winning the league. It’s a shame, for he’s such a talent. I recently spoke to someone who worked closely with the Portuguese winger throughout his career.

“Nani’s a great player,” he said. “It’s tragedy what’s happened to him. What have they done to him?”

The end also looks nigh for 40-year-old Ryan Giggs. United will lose a huge amount of experience this summer.

Meanwhile, there’s more chance of Ferguson returning to Old Trafford than Anderson, who is currently on loan at Fiorentina. Ashley Young could leave if anyone makes a reasonable bid, and Tom Cleverley hasn’t yet been offered the new contract he expected.

Moyes will have his side of the story, too. His job is a very difficult one when the players have so much power. All of them are under contract and would breach their contracts if they spoke out, though some have tried, either cryptically using social media, in private or in interviews that have been pulled by a club keen to keep a positive message and a lid on discontent. In mitigation, some of the players have underperformed and let their manager down.

Beyond the first team, promising 18-year-old striker James Wilson aside, Moyes believes United’s youth system needs work and money to work to bring it up to the same level as City’s. It says much that van Persie and Phil Neville, two high-profile United employees, chose to send their sons to City’s academy.

What’s worrying is the quality of the young players coming through at both clubs. City are miles ahead. Their under-18s recently won their 13th straight game with a victory over United.

Targets identified

The club will go into next season without Champions League football for the first time in 18 years. There is concern about season ticket sales and attempts will be made to deliver good news to improve the mood.

Exciting signings, signed early, will do that, just as the arrival of Juan Mata did in January, but the club’s owners, the Glazer family, have to decide if they’re to trust Moyes with the money to oversee those arrivals.

Southampton full-back Luke Shaw, 18, is wanted. He's a childhood Chelsea fan, but it's believed that his family would prefer him to go to United, which is perceived as being a more stable club and where he could comfortably be left-back for the next 15 years.

Moyes is also a huge admirer of Atletico Madrid's Diego Costa. Who isn't? Another Atleti star, left-back Filipe Luis, is also rated. A central midfielder and central defender are other priorities.

United are aware that they need to avoid a repeat of last summer. Though Woodward and Moyes initially defended their actions, they later admitted that they'd learned from their experience. Moyes has been told to be more assertive.

The club are certain that the money is there to spend big and that they remain attractive to prospective signings, despite not having Champions League football to offer. It's imperative that United make a statement by signing a player to excite fans who won't take another three months of excuses or being merely linked to names.

It's not only Moyes' battered reputation at risk, but Woodward's, too. He needs to show he is a man who can deliver players and appears to be getting used to dealing with the type of people he'll need to deal with. The daughter of “super” agent Jorge Mendes was looked after when she did work experience at Old Trafford last autumn.

If Moyes gets time, he’ll make the dressing room his own, but Marouane Fellaini, the one obvious Moyes signing so far, has not impressed and that knocks supporter confidence in the manager.

Fellaini cost more than Yaya Toure, yet when the pair came face to face in September's Manchester derby, the difference in class was staggering. His coaches insist that the Belgian just needs a goal to lift his confidence, that he's a very good player and others have taken time to settle, but should a 27 million pound player not be doing more against mid and low-ranking sides? He didn't choose the fee but, still, he's a central midfielder for Manchester United.

It has been a dramatic, fascinating, failure of a season for United. No matter how much work Moyes felt needed doing, dropping from first place to seventh is a huge swing.

The fans have stood it until now but, if they don’t see improvements soon, they will turn. And nobody saw that at the start of the season as the first team enjoyed being big in Japan.

He also needs to realise that he has potential allies: United’s official media can be a help and should not be seen as a hindrance.

And how Moyes has needed people onside. The December abuse from Everton fans, whom he’d served well for a decade, was surprising and undeserved. Their team got a rare win at Old Trafford, too. Three days later, United lost again at home, this time to Newcastle.

There have been bright spots, especially in the Champions League, with the 5-0 win in Leverkusen a season’s best performance, but nowhere near enough for a team of the club’s standing. Capital One and FA Cup runs ended in farce against Sunderland and Swansea respectively at Old Trafford.
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FYI I left a bit out the start. This all does not make a good reading, bad man management it seems and blocking player interviews. Not sure how he can allowed to carry on.
 
CantonaGiggs1 said:
I wonder how the Moyes cultists will react to his comments.
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Who do we all think is a clown?
Who has let Old Trafford down?
Moyes does! Moyes does!

Who keeps Kagawa off the pitch?
Who's dragging us into the ditch?
Moyes does! Moyes does!

Who makes this job look a job too far?
Who thinks Fellaini is a star?
Moyes does! Moyes does!

Who always crosses from the right?
Who's robbed us of a Champions League night?
Moyes does! Moyes does!!!

 
PlayerOne said:
FYI I left a bit out the start. This all does not make a good reading, bad man management it seems and blocking player interviews. Not sure how he can allowed to carry on.
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Hopefully he doens't. I can see only more bad before it gets good.
 
Mainoldo said:
Hopefully he doens't. I can see only more bad before it gets good.
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Genuinely can't see any good coming from this man in charge. It'll be bad and then it may become adequate.
 
The club’s record against the top three is: P6 W0 D1 L5 F3 A14
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That sequence alone should've done for Moyes.
 
SteveJ said:
That sequence alone should've done for Moyes.
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What changed for you, Steve? I remember you were backing Moyes for while. Anyway, I don't see how buying players solves the dressing room issues.
 
SteveJ said:
That sequence alone should've done for Moyes.
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This. Several managers working at big clubs would have been sacked for less of a poor record against top rivals.

A1X said:
Who do we all think is a clown?
Who has let Old Trafford down?
Moyes does! Moyes does!

Who keeps Kagawa off the pitch?
Who's dragging us into the ditch?
Moyes does! Moyes does!

Who makes this job look a job too far?
Who thinks Fellaini is a star?
Moyes does! Moyes does!

Who always crosses from the right?
Who's robbed us of a Champions League night?
Moyes does! Moyes does!!!
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:lol: :lol: :lol:
 
PlayerOne said:
What changed for you, Steve? I remember you were backing Moyes for while. Anyway, I don't see how buying players solves the dressing room issues.
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I wanted to give David a fair chance, mate; also, I feel that some of the personal criticism of him is ridiculous. Despite this awful season, I felt that one season wasn't enough time (especially for someone not known for being an 'impact' manager). Trouble is, modern football culture - and United's profile - demanded that Moyes start well...and it's been completely the opposite, sadly. Mainly though, I don't believe he has the support of the squad or the board. The former part is very problematical, as it appears that Moyes will have to get rid of numerous players in order to make the squad his own (and not for - understandable - reasons of improving the squad).

While I'm a great believer that managers should be allowed to manage in their own way, and with supreme authority, I'm very unhappy that players like Giggs may be cast out for the 'crime' of having little faith in Moyes' abilities; I'm far from an expert but I'm inclined to think that Giggs may be in the right. I'd love Moyes to succeed, for loads of reasons, but if he stays I think that we'll struggle to achieve, both domestically and in Europe.
 
SteveJ said:
I wanted to give David a fair chance, mate; also, I feel that some of the personal criticism of him is ridiculous. Despite this awful season, I felt that one season wasn't enough time (especially for someone not known for being an 'impact' manager). Trouble is, modern football culture - and United's profile - demanded that Moyes start well...and it's been completely the opposite, sadly. Mainly though, I don't believe he has the support of the squad or the board. The former part is very problematical, as it appears that Moyes will have to get rid of numerous players in order to make the squad his own (and not for - understandable - reasons of improving the squad).

While I'm a great believer that managers should be allowed to manage in their own way, and with supreme authority, I'm very unhappy that players like Giggs may be cast out for the 'crime' of having little faith in Moyes' abilities; I'm far from an expert but I'm inclined to think that Giggs may be in the right. I'd love Moyes to succeed, for loads of reasons, but if he stays I think that we'll struggle to achieve, both domestically and in Europe.
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Amen.
 
SteveJ said:
I wanted to give David a fair chance, mate; also, I feel that some of the personal criticism of him is ridiculous. Despite this awful season, I felt that one season wasn't enough time (especially for someone not known for being an 'impact' manager). Trouble is, modern football culture - and United's profile - demanded that Moyes start well...and it's been completely the opposite, sadly. Mainly though, I don't believe he has the support of the squad or the board. The former part is very problematical, as it appears that Moyes will have to get rid of numerous players in order to make the squad his own (and not for - understandable - reasons of improving the squad).

While I'm a great believer that managers should be allowed to manage in their own way, and with supreme authority, I'm very unhappy that players like Giggs may be cast out for the 'crime' of having little faith in Moyes' abilities; I'm far from an expert but I'm inclined to think that Giggs may be in the right. I'd love Moyes to succeed, for loads of reasons, but if he stays I think that we'll struggle to achieve, both domestically and in Europe.
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Nicely put.

If you're right then he definitely needs to go (and I'm sure he will). I guess we'll find out soon.
 
SteveJ said:
I wanted to give David a fair chance, mate; also, I feel that some of the personal criticism of him is ridiculous. Despite this awful season, I felt that one season wasn't enough time (especially for someone not known for being an 'impact' manager). Trouble is, modern football culture - and United's profile - demanded that Moyes start well...and it's been completely the opposite, sadly. Mainly though, I don't believe he has the support of the squad or the board. The former part is very problematical, as it appears that Moyes will have to get rid of numerous players in order to make the squad his own (and not for - understandable - reasons of improving the squad).

While I'm a great believer that managers should be allowed to manage in their own way, and with supreme authority, I'm very unhappy that players like Giggs may be cast out for the 'crime' of having little faith in Moyes' abilities; I'm far from an expert but I'm inclined to think that Giggs may be in the right. I'd love Moyes to succeed, for loads of reasons, but if he stays I think that we'll struggle to achieve, both domestically and in Europe.
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Can't fault any of that really.
 
The bit about the academy is bullshit. Anyone who actually regularly watches youth level football knows winning is really little more than a bonus compared to talent development. City's approach to their 'elite development squad' has been to buy in pretty well-developed youngsters from all over the world so that their youth teams win a lot. These players have absolutely zero prospect of getting a chance in the first team, and are eventually sold off after a few wasted years, almost always abroad, since there is little demand for them here.

A youth set-up is not measured in wins, but in players coming through and having an impact in the first team (and elsewhere in football). Januzaj has been one of our most successful players this season, and in the likes of Wilson, Pearson, Rothwell and Pereira there's clearly more to come. Meanwhile the Premier League and Championship are full of our young prospects, on loan or recently sold. The youth system in general in this country needs a complete rethink - there aren't enough competitive games to be played at U18 and U21 level, and the gulf in quality between U21 and first team competitions is much too big. But our own set up is, in this limiting context, very healthy indeed.
 
SteveJ said:
I wanted to give David a fair chance, mate; also, I feel that some of the personal criticism of him is ridiculous. Despite this awful season, I felt that one season wasn't enough time (especially for someone not known for being an 'impact' manager). Trouble is, modern football culture - and United's profile - demanded that Moyes start well...and it's been completely the opposite, sadly. Mainly though, I don't believe he has the support of the squad or the board. The former part is very problematical, as it appears that Moyes will have to get rid of numerous players in order to make the squad his own (and not for - understandable - reasons of improving the squad).

While I'm a great believer that managers should be allowed to manage in their own way, and with supreme authority, I'm very unhappy that players like Giggs may be cast out for the 'crime' of having little faith in Moyes' abilities; I'm far from an expert but I'm inclined to think that Giggs may be in the right. I'd love Moyes to succeed, for loads of reasons, but if he stays I think that we'll struggle to achieve, both domestically and in Europe.
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Fully agree with all that. When I was down in the newbies I pretty much defended Moyes because I felt people were being unfair. I don't think it's fair to expect him to be someone he isn't, really the club should have looked at the him closer. For example, his media handling seems to annoy a lot of fans but that's who is, he can't change that, he was the same at Everton. For so many of the this season issues the board take the blame.

It's quite absurd really, it's almost like we overlooked so many things about him when we hired him, I mean why hire someone at one of the biggest clubs when he doesn't enjoy media attention.
 
CantonaGiggs1 said:
These are the 4 major points made by Moyes apologists:

1. The squad is awful- We are the champions.

2. The league was terrible last season. I guess that means the league also sucked in previous seasons when this same squad competed for the title.

3. RVP single handedly won the league. We won the league in 2011 and lost on goal difference in 2012(choked an 8 point lead with 5 games to go) minus RVP. We scored 86 goals in the EPL last season. 26 scored by RVP. Obviously someone else was scoring goals as well. I don't see people diminishing Barca and Real Madrid's accomplishments when Messi and Ronaldo are scoring 60+ goals for them a season( a much bigger percentage of the team's goals than RVP). Since when is it a bad thing for the striker of a team to score goals?

4. SAF told us to stand by the manager. I have a mind of my own. If SAF told you to jump off a bridge, would you do it?
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I've used none of them and I still support Moyes.

There are many factors for this shambles of a season and Moyes is just one of them. What makes you all so sure if Moyes goes things will just go back to normal? Are people really expecting it to be business as usual straight after?

What if we get Klopp, van Gaal, Mourinho or Guardiola and next season end up 6th? Will that be all Moyes' fault too? Will you demand their heads too?

I understand you're angry about this season. I do, I get it, we're all disappointed about it believe it or not. Us 'Moyes enablers' aren't rubbing our hands in glee at the shit season we've witnessed, we've had to endure it every bit as much as you, despite what you may think.

And to be fair, at least the majority of people who still support him have conceded that they may, quite possibly, be wrong. I've only seen one person who wants Moyes out do that, and fair play to Kid Canto for it.

There's plenty of people on here who still support our manager. They don't post in here and I don't blame them, the things we've been called are way over the top. Idiotic, dumb, blind, ignorant, inept, blinkered, deluded, mad, crazy just to name a few. Why would we put ourselves forward for ridicule dressed up as curiosity? It's just one big angry circle jerk in here for that very reason.
 
PlayerOne said:
It's quite absurd really, it's almost like we overlooked so many things about him when we hired him
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Yep, there were loads of red flags obvious even to non-expert observers like us.

SAF had achieved so much that he'd earned the right to be indulgent & sentimental - I feel that he wanted to give a decent man/manager his big chance. However, laudable as that sentiment might be, it's out of place in modern football - hoping someone will succeed, rather than believing it, seems naive and irresponsible.
 
SteveJ said:
I wanted to give David a fair chance, mate; also, I feel that some of the personal criticism of him is ridiculous. Despite this awful season, I felt that one season wasn't enough time (especially for someone not known for being an 'impact' manager). Trouble is, modern football culture - and United's profile - demanded that Moyes start well...and it's been completely the opposite, sadly. Mainly though, I don't believe he has the support of the squad or the board. The former part is very problematical, as it appears that Moyes will have to get rid of numerous players in order to make the squad his own (and not for - understandable - reasons of improving the squad).

While I'm a great believer that managers should be allowed to manage in their own way, and with supreme authority, I'm very unhappy that players like Giggs may be cast out for the 'crime' of having little faith in Moyes' abilities; I'm far from an expert but I'm inclined to think that Giggs may be in the right. I'd love Moyes to succeed, for loads of reasons, but if he stays I think that we'll struggle to achieve, both domestically and in Europe.
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Hard to argue with any of that.

I'll add something though: His football is dire and he's proven himself to be a safety first-manager, if we didn't know it beforehand.

The biggest problem with keeping Moyes on is that it's really gone too far to it being realistic for him to turn it around. His surroundings have lost complete faith in his ability, and seemingly, so has he.
 
SteveJ said:
I wanted to give David a fair chance, mate; also, I feel that some of the personal criticism of him is ridiculous. Despite this awful season, I felt that one season wasn't enough time (especially for someone not known for being an 'impact' manager). Trouble is, modern football culture - and United's profile - demanded that Moyes start well...and it's been completely the opposite, sadly. Mainly though, I don't believe he has the support of the squad or the board. The former part is very problematical, as it appears that Moyes will have to get rid of numerous players in order to make the squad his own (and not for - understandable - reasons of improving the squad).

While I'm a great believer that managers should be allowed to manage in their own way, and with supreme authority, I'm very unhappy that players like Giggs may be cast out for the 'crime' of having little faith in Moyes' abilities; I'm far from an expert but I'm inclined to think that Giggs may be in the right. I'd love Moyes to succeed, for loads of reasons, but if he stays I think that we'll struggle to achieve, both domestically and in Europe.
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That's a great post that, Steve. Helped me understand the Moyes Out argument a little more.
 
SteveJ said:
Yep, there were loads of red flags obvious even to non-expert observers like us.

SAF had achieved so much that he'd earned the right to be indulgent & sentimental - I feel that he wanted to give a decent man/manager his big chance. However, laudable as that sentiment might be, it's out of place in modern football - hoping someone will succeed, rather than believing it, seems naive and irresponsible.
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I think SAF believed Moyes would succeed.

I reckon he saw quite a bit of himself in him, but overlooked a lot of the actual footballing qualities needed for the job.

Also Moyes hasn't really shown supreme faith in himself - which to me is quite damning for SAF's ability to judge a man's character if true.
 
I wish we could have more of this kind of debate rather than the hysterical bullshit.

I'm still a Moyes Agnostic (I don't believe in Moyes but I'm not ruling out the possibility that there is something to believe in) and I find myself getting frustrated with the hysterics and trying to balance discussion which seems to make me look like I love the guy.
 
SteveJ said:
Yep, there were loads of red flags obvious even to non-expert observers like us.

SAF had achieved so much that he'd earned the right to be indulgent & sentimental - I feel that he wanted to give a decent man/manager his big chance. However, laudable as that sentiment might be, it's out of place in modern football - hoping someone will succeed, rather than believing it, seems naive and irresponsible.
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It was all too romantic, almost blind faith. We got a guy in who has never been under-pressure to win trophies, win almost every game and handle a big squad of superstars. We expected him to change his management style, his media handling and a few more things. When I think about it like that it makes it even more crazy that we hired him after the greatest manager of all time.

It makes me think, if Moyes does go, will Fergie start to distance himself from the club a bit. I also think it's why he took the Harvard job.
 
Tomalonge said:
I've used none of them and I still support Moyes.

There are many factors for this shambles of a season and Moyes is just one of them. What makes you all so sure if Moyes goes things will just go back to normal? Are people really expecting it to be business as usual straight after?

What if we get Klopp, van Gaal, Mourinho or Guardiola and next season end up 6th? Will that be all Moyes' fault too? Will you demand their heads too?

I understand you're angry about this season. I do, I get it, we're all disappointed about it believe it or not. Us 'Moyes enablers' aren't rubbing our hands in glee at the shit season we've witnessed, we've had to endure it every bit as much as you, despite what you may think.

And to be fair, at least the majority of people who still support him have conceded that they may, quite possibly, be wrong. I've only seen one person who wants Moyes out do that, and fair play to Kid Canto for it.

There's plenty of people on here who still support our manager. They don't post in here and I don't blame them, the things we've been called are way over the top. Idiotic, dumb, blind, ignorant, inept, blinkered, deluded, mad, crazy just to name a few. Why would we put ourselves forward for ridicule dressed up as curiosity? It's just one big angry circle jerk in here for that very reason.
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Good post, mate. And the part in bold is spot on.

I've said it a hundred times in these threads: it's not the sentiments or the arguments or the skepticism I have a problem with - it's the way in which all of this is expressed. Or, rather, too frequently expressed - because there have been exceptions to the rule all along.
 
Tomalonge said:
I've used none of them and I still support Moyes.

There are many factors for this shambles of a season and Moyes is just one of them. What makes you all so sure if Moyes goes things will just go back to normal? Are people really expecting it to be business as usual straight after?

What if we get Klopp, van Gaal, Mourinho or Guardiola and next season end up 6th? Will that be all Moyes' fault too? Will you demand their heads too?

I understand you're angry about this season. I do, I get it, we're all disappointed about it believe it or not. Us 'Moyes enablers' aren't rubbing our hands in glee at the shit season we've witnessed, we've had to endure it every bit as much as you, despite what you may think.

And to be fair, at least the majority of people who still support him have conceded that they may, quite possibly, be wrong. I've only seen one person who wants Moyes out do that, and fair play to Kid Canto for it.

There's plenty of people on here who still support our manager. They don't post in here and I don't blame them, the things we've been called are way over the top. Idiotic, dumb, blind, ignorant, inept, blinkered, deluded, mad, crazy just to name a few. Why would we put ourselves forward for ridicule dressed up as curiosity? It's just one big angry circle jerk in here for that very reason.
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What if we sign Ronaldo and Messi and they play like Young and Valencia?

Some things can happen and some things can't. Expecting Klopp/Pep.Mourinho to be as bad as Moyes is like expecting Ronaldo to be as bad as Young/Valencia. It just won't happen.
 
SteveJ said:
I wanted to give David a fair chance, mate; also, I feel that some of the personal criticism of him is ridiculous. Despite this awful season, I felt that one season wasn't enough time (especially for someone not known for being an 'impact' manager). Trouble is, modern football culture - and United's profile - demanded that Moyes start well...and it's been completely the opposite, sadly. Mainly though, I don't believe he has the support of the squad or the board. The former part is very problematical, as it appears that Moyes will have to get rid of numerous players in order to make the squad his own (and not for - understandable - reasons of improving the squad).

While I'm a great believer that managers should be allowed to manage in their own way, and with supreme authority, I'm very unhappy that players like Giggs may be cast out for the 'crime' of having little faith in Moyes' abilities; I'm far from an expert but I'm inclined to think that Giggs may be in the right. I'd love Moyes to succeed, for loads of reasons, but if he stays I think that we'll struggle to achieve, both domestically and in Europe.
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Excellent post, Steve. Bit depressing, though.

Bold bit: If the latter is the case, he's surely gone. Unless we're looking at a truly shocking picture here: Glazers + Moyes versus Fergie + Charlton (who have now realized that going for Moyes was a mistake). The former is a real possibility - and a worrying one. Getting rid of certain senior players is fine in my book. They've served the club well but they're done and need replacing. However, if there are others, less senior players who aren't behind Moyes - well, that's an untenable position. He can't get rid of 'em all. I've said all season that if he has truly lost the dressing room, he needs to go. That goes for any manager at any club.
 
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jojojo said:
Pellegrini survived a 4-0 defeat by Alcorcon. Mourinho lost 5-0 to Barcelona. The press however would have been on his case instantly. Dissecting, analysing, creating computer graphics comparing him to other managers, studying his body language, breaking down every word he uttered.

They board would have been getting twitchy in November - preparing the kind of sack for Christmas that doesn't contain presents. December's form would have given him a reprieve. He'd have gone after the Stoke game at the start of February. The new guy would be expected to get them back into a CL place and would be sacked at the end of the season whether he succeeded or not.

Or something.

The great thing about giving a manager a long run is that it allows him to think about the team in two years time or five years time as well as this year. He can look at the age profile of his squad, try out players in new roles or formations, he can take risks.

The great thing about having no hesitation about sacking managers is that you can make risky hiring decisions. You can hire someone without the pre-requisite experience for the job because you can move them on if they fail. In other words you can hire a Pep Guardiola or a David Moyes in absolute confidence that if they aren't what you'd hoped then you can sack them, and no hard feelings.
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Only point was that Mourinho was as proven as they get so that would have got him time. Personally I feel the back-to-back home defeats to Everton and Newcastle would have been enough for the board to sack him. If not, then surely the defeat to Spurs at OT would definitely have got him the boot. I doubt Perez would have waited till Stoke. Because even that mini-revival of sorts in December was with dull football against poor sides in general. And his comments about trying to make it hard for Newcastle at home. The Madrid media would have torn him a new one just on that issue itself, let alone the performances.

I do agree with the sentiment of your last para. The revolving door policy allows the board to take certain risks. But even our long term commitment to a manager with no proven background in managing such a big club is a big risk. Something which I still cannot understand, especially given the length of the contract,
 
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