Everton could strongly finish in the top 4, all while playing their best football in ages. Not saying this would automatically mean Martinez is a better manager but he should be getting a lot of credit for transforming them into a side genuinely fighting for a top 4 finish and taking on the big guns head on. That is the thing which has pleased me the most about him. Yes Liverpool gave Everton a thrashing but that was a one off and they have been the equals of all the big team they have faced so far.
Moyes So Far!
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Everton could strongly finish in the top 4, all while playing their best football in ages. Not saying this would automatically mean Martinez is a better manager but he should be getting a lot of credit for transforming them into a side genuinely fighting for a top 4 finish and taking on the big guns head on. That is the thing which has pleased me the most about him. Yes Liverpool gave Everton a thrashing but that was a one off and they have been the equals of all the big team they have faced so far.
Pretty much agree with a lot of that. Not saying Moyes is the right man for United, but I think it's highly unjust to discredit what he did at Everton just beacuse he is failing here at the moment. I think also, the limit on going further is also partly due to amount of money he had to invest. No question Martinez has done fantastic in this season so far, but he is only able to do so because Moyes took a relegation battled, financially unstable, and underachieving club and turned them into a stable, solid, and well performing side which consistently finished above their expenditure on wages and transfers suggested they would.
We need to be clear; that is a very separate point from Moyes being the right man for United. You have different types of managers who are good at different things and therefore the skillset that Moyes demonstrated at Everton may not be applicable at United.
I only came into this thread to comment that Moyes should be commended for what he did at Everton and why people do commend him. I'm in no way linking that to if he should keep his job here, or anything United related to be honest.
Then I don't think we have anything to disagree on. I agree Moyes built a very good base for Martinez at Everton. I think he is good at that. Building a good base for a future manager at a club with limited budget. Have no idea if he has it in him to capitalize on a very solid base at an enormous club.
Can we not agree that Moyes did a very good job at Everton albeit where expectations weren't very high but he managed to turn them into a solid upper half team on a very limited budget? I don't think he's the best we can do in terms of managers for United but at least I can acknowledge that he did well at Everton. Saying that is not excluding the possibility of someone else taking Everton further (also building upon what Moyes did there) or that somehow that it should translate into being a good option for United.
If Moyes hadn't done well at Everton he would never ever have been appointed here in the first place. Maybe he had a ceiling he reached with Everton, but he also had very limited funds and if Martinez finds the same financial limitations placed on him, he'll struggle to really get them to the next level in terms of league table, though he'll of course play much more attractive football.
If Moyes hadn't done well at Everton he would never ever have been appointed here in the first place. Maybe he had a ceiling he reached with Everton, but he also had very limited funds and if Martinez finds the same financial limitations placed on him, he'll struggle to really get them to the next level in terms of league table, though he'll of course play much more attractive football.
This, I think, is the problem. We should not be comparing what a manager did at Everton to what he is expected to do United. They are two totally different situations. In other words managing Everton to a respectable position above mid table is hardly a recommendation for continuing the success that is United. The two situations are in no way comparable and neither are the expectations.
I was training at the gym this morning with my Newcastle supporting mate and we were chatting about the game. Another guy comes up to us and because my mate is wearing his Newcastle shirt says "can't believe you lost to that lot on Saturday".
This is my single biggest issue with Moyes. He has not only lowered each and every United fans expectation level, he has also changed the mindset of most average fans.
We are now such a joke amongst rival fans that they rip the piss out of each other for losing to United.
This is my single biggest issue with Moyes. He has not only lowered each and every United fans expectation level, he has also changed the mindset of most average fans.
We are now such a joke amongst rival fans that they rip the piss out of each other for losing to United.
Indeed.
I think Moyes could make an excellent career of being a 'fixer' at troubled clubs. He gets hired, stabilises the club at the expense of dour football and then leaves it with a solid base for the next ambitious manager to take them a step up. Moyes moves on to the next club, rinse and repeat.
Trouble is, SAF had left United with a very healthy foundation to the extent where someone like Moyes would only have a counterproductive effect on it. If we persist with him I fear we'll backwardly adapt to his standards thereby regressing the club permanently. Its already happening now with some fans lowering their expectations for next season and beyond (elated with a top 4 finish?! ffs) and opposition fans genuinely expecting their mediocre teams to beat us at home.
While we've been blinded by the aura of Moyes, its easy to forget we won the league by 11 points last season while winning 5 of the last 7 league titles. Just remember that.
Trouble is, SAF had left United with a very healthy foundation to the extent where someone like Moyes would only have a counterproductive effect on it. If we persist with him I fear we'll backwardly adapt to his standards thereby regressing the club permanently. Its already happening now with some fans lowering their expectations for next season and beyond (elated with a top 4 finish?! ffs) and opposition fans genuinely expecting their mediocre teams to beat us at home.
While we've been blinded by the aura of Moyes, its easy to forget we won the league by 11 points last season while winning 5 of the last 7 league titles. Just remember that.
Just bolded the bit because while many people may never of felt that he was the right man for the job, SAF and by extension the United board saw something in him that suggested he has what it takes . .
That said, I agree with some of your sentiments. I also think if we have a successful transfer summer and are in the same situation this time next year, playing the same kind of football, that his position will be difficult to justify . .
Agreed . .
United were exposed badly at home because DM actually tried to go at teams and play "the united way" (whatever that is). Jose is, at heart, quite a defensive coach and has been extremely successful. Sure his Chelsea side haven't got a decent striker and have played 5 midfielders in games and yet they are still in the champo league (ahead of much more attackingly gifted outfits like Arsenal and City).
I have seen Everton and United play out some great games, so while he may be a defensive coach its not to say all our football will be bad if he has a system that our players react to. Also, if we eventually won the league or champions league with Jose effective tactics, I don't think too many people would be complaining . .
we would of course want to win titles...but we would still be pressing the coach to then start doing it...'the United way'...
I think the United board went entirely on what Fergie recommended taking into account too that Charlton didn't want Mourinho. In effect it was left to one person to make the decision. Quite why Fergie settled on Moyes has been and is still open to debate and maybe we'll never know the real reasons. I think the club run a risk keeping Moyes beyond the end of this season and more particularly in supplying him with a hefty amount of cash to try and do a crucial re-building job. I'm not sure which top players will jump at the chance of coming to United and playing for Moyes and his lightweight coaching staff. This is of course further compounded by the lack of ECL football. It means United are going to have to throw a lot of money around in order to try and compensate for the shortcomings. In turn that means fewer players joining as I am sure the amount of cash available will be finite and well short of the 200m figure bandied about. If, however, Moyes were to be replaced and a top notch manager of appropriate stature brought in then that would at least be an attraction.
If Moyes is to be given another year, then I'd like to see him at least appoint a proper and respected number 2 and to install a reputable first team coach as well. How about Queiroz and Meulensteen or someone of their ilk? Wont happen, sadly.
He has had a poor start which i mostly put down to him and ed starting late, they should have been working from the day after last seasons last game.He is showing resolve however and beginning to get accross what he wants to do. We must do well in the transfer market this summer and compete in the top four, bagging a cup would be a great relief for him as well, needs to put that ammo against him to bed.
I expect him and the team to imrpove next year and even three more wins this year would have us about I feel with the squad.
I don't think anybody has forgotten anything . . People who think DM is not good enough (or never will be), seem to have the opinion that if people don't agree with them, that we don't see anything they do (like bad performances). . The difference is one set of supporters are patient and willing to give DM more time, the other isn't interested and compares his position to that of every other managerial one.
I don't think any United fan is happy with the way the club has performed this season. Some may feel that giving DM more time after such a poor start is to lower our standards. I feel anybody looking for him to be sacked wants instant evidence that things will improve which isn't unreasonable, but its not definitive either.
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I don't completely disagree with you, but Moyes was unproven at this level and in Europe, so these aren't exactly things that everybody didn't know. Incidentally, DM has proven to be not too bad in Europe thus far so I am not sure why people keep bringing that up . .
I also must state that Juan Mata was happy to play for DM in spite of the disaster first half a season we had so its not that fair to state that top players wont play or join because of DM. Also Rooney and Nani resigned longer contracts. And you are forgetting that most modern footballers follow the money. Nobdoy cant convince me that top players join Monaco, PSG or any Russian team for anything other then money.
Having a big name manager and champions league football always helps. Playing on front of 75,000 home fans isn't exactly worth nothing! And a club that is considered one of the most supported in the world is more then likely not going to be out of the top levels of football too long even if DM doesnt work out! I would still fancy getting players to join us over Liverpool or Arsenal 9 times out of 10 if push came to shove. .
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Compared to higher profile managers Moyes is a virtual unknown in Europe. Mind you, that might change come Wednesday night (wishful thinking?)! You're right about the money and that's why United may very well have to throw a lot of it around to attract the top players. You're probably right about Mata, although he was fairly desperate to get out of Chelsea and I'm not sure who else was prepared to stump up 37m to get him. Anyway I'm glad it worked out for us because he's a great player. Rooney is Moyes' big success so far - along with securing Januzaj too. But would Rooney have stayed had he been able to get the same deal elsewhere? There are other factors in his case including his family settled in the NW. I don't say top players wont play for Moyes, they will, as you say, if the money is over the top and here we are probably going to have to compete with the best. I sense the Glazers' somewhat parsimonious approach to investing in the team, which has cost us over recent years, has been partially dispensed with but there must be limitations. Whether or not there will be sufficient cash to buy say five top notch players by having to pay over the odds because the manager is still under a cloud and there is no European football to speak of, is highly doubtful. You're right about the club's status in world football being an attraction (we'd like to think so anyway) but without really big money and the staff who have the necessary ambition and ability to succeed at the highest level and who can actually improve a top player's game, I'm afraid its going to be an uphill task to attract the best. The problem is with Moyes we have lowered what should have been our standards - ie only the best.
I don't believe United are lowering their standards when it comes to transfer targets. If anything the opposite is true. We've already broken our transfer record and I wouldn't be at all surprised if we did so again this summer. With clubs having to consider FFP and take it more seriously now United will go back to being a very big player in the transfer market again.
I agree. I was hugely critical of the Glazers in the summer.
The way I saw it was that Moyes had been given a budget of around £30 million last summer (hence the low joint bid for Baines and Fellaini, which didn't result in an improved bid, but a bid for Fellaini at around the same price.)
It was only going to be one midfielder last summer, despite Moyes clearly wanting two.
I still refuse to believe that Moyes truly valued Fabregas at the price we bid. He's been in football management long enough.
It seemed like a 'let's just give it a try' bid, which in itself was naive, and I hope he's learnt from it.
But since then, the Mata deal and the players we're being linked with indicate to me that the Glazers are now willing to cough up this cash we're making every year. I know we get linked with huge transfers every summer. But this year, I can see some big moves happening and big money spent.
I still believe the appointment was a hubristic one. But from a genuinely well meaning, but misguided place. In identifying the reason for his success, Ferguson simply underestimated his footballing pedigree, and over-estimated the significance of his personal values. I wrote a jokey piece around it in Jan, but a recent Slate article articulated it much better.
This is the reasoning I lean closest too. Less the Scottishness, and more the general point about successful people being inclined to believe their success lends legitimacy to their own values.
The fact Moyes's appointment seemed to go against every criteria David Gill had identified for Ferguson's successor, and that his autobiography comments said nothing of DM's football and everything about his background seem like a fairly decent indicator of such, though obviously still a thesis in progress.
Regarding the Scottishness though, I've recently, and completely by accident caught several episodes of Sky's Fantasy Football club, a fluff of a show where Paul Merson and the ratty looking one from Soccer AM get ex-pros to list the best XIs they played with. By chance the last 3 I watched had Scotsmen on as guests. Joe Jordan was one, Alex McLeish another, and a third I can't remember. I'm not sure whether it was simply the proximity of these people that made it notable or not but I noticed a distinct trend in them all to overrate, or at least be very loyal to their fellow countrymen. It's fair enough for McLeish to name an entirely Scottish team, but Joe Jordan played for United & Milan, so was hardly short of quality alternates.
I don't for a moment think it's an attitude indicative of Scots, but I think there's a good chance that a certain type of Scot, from a certain type of era, who's in or interested in football management could easily be want to place a certain romantic value on the influence of their background. And with good reason. There are a disproportionate amount of Scots from said eras in football management. They've a proud tradition of it too, especially in England. So although it seems like a silly joke to emphasise it's importance in Moyes's appointment, I don't think it's too silly to imagine Ferguson thought it significantly important in his own success, and allied with some self mythologised reasoning, may have allowed it to take a slightly more prominent role in his decision making than it possibly should have. Not all, but some.
On the other hand, Sir Alex mismanaged United so badly he left a club in complete disarray for Moyes to rebuild from ground zero?
If you're going to credit Moyes for Everton's season, surely you're being very critical of Sir Alex for United's season.
I do not read this thread often so apologies if this has been discussed already but a question for those who believe we are on the up finally - Moyes historically ends the season well after starting disastrously
What makes you think we are not witnessing the same with us?
Thought I personally do not think even our past few games are worthy of calling it a mini revival
What makes you think we are not witnessing the same with us?
Thought I personally do not think even our past few games are worthy of calling it a mini revival
There's something to what Mockney is saying. Found this snippet from Darren Fletcher that was taken from an interview with the Mail a few years ago. There's a link to the entire thing below but I've culled this bit for the sake of brevity:
‘He (Fergie) is just one of those guys who is very patriotic about Scotland. Any Scottish team, any Scottish sportsman. It puts a lot of pressure on me, actually, all these little side bets he puts on during international week. Nothing like going off to play France, with the manager shouting “if you lose, don’t come back” after you.’
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...s-Champions-League-triumph.html#ixzz2yDhnSRmF
http://ec.tynt.com/b/rf?id=bBOTTqvd0r3Pooab7jrHcU&u=DailyMail
‘He (Fergie) is just one of those guys who is very patriotic about Scotland. Any Scottish team, any Scottish sportsman. It puts a lot of pressure on me, actually, all these little side bets he puts on during international week. Nothing like going off to play France, with the manager shouting “if you lose, don’t come back” after you.’
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...s-Champions-League-triumph.html#ixzz2yDhnSRmF
http://ec.tynt.com/b/rf?id=bBOTTqvd0r3Pooab7jrHcU&u=DailyMail
Sir Matt Busby was Scottish too. Maybe Fergie believes all Scottish managers, by virtue of their country of birth, are perfect United managers.
I don't think it's nearly as simple as that. But I also don't think it was completely redundant in his thinking. It's not a mere pan-Scottishness, he knew Moyes's dad, they played at the same youth club or something to that effect. It's a very specific type of upbringing Fergie identifies/agrees with.
If there's truth to it, it's a more complicated issue than simply saying "He got the job because he was Scottish". But that's not quite the same as saying "He wouldn't have got the job if he'd had a different background" which may very well be credible.
If there's truth to it, it's a more complicated issue than simply saying "He got the job because he was Scottish". But that's not quite the same as saying "He wouldn't have got the job if he'd had a different background" which may very well be credible.
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On the other hand, Sir Alex mismanaged United so badly he left a club in complete disarray for Moyes to rebuild from ground zero?
If you're going to credit Moyes for Everton's season, surely you're being very critical of Sir Alex for United's season.
I neither said that SAF left Moyes a squad in disarray, nor did I give him credit for Evertons season. . You are welcome to quote where I said these exact things if you like , otherwise please don't put words in my posts .
I was suggesting that DM built the foundations of a strong backline that made it perfect for an attacking manager like Martinez come in and thrive. It could be argued that Martinez coming in at a very strong defensive Everton unit and changing their style is very similar to that of Wenger at Arsenal when he took over the strong british defence of Seaman, Dixon, Bould, Adams, Keown, Winterburn. Its also interesting that Wenger, an attacking coach instinctively, has never really been able to build his own solid defence to match the quality of the one he inherited . . Nobody can say for sure if Martinez will be as limited at buying defenders, but he has inherited a team with strengths that compliment his own in ways he may not be able to rebuild himself.
It might be unfair to call Martinez right man at the right time, but it may prove to be just that . .
Regardless it was a harder task to take United from 1st to 6th than Everton from 6th to 5th. On that note regardless of what foundations he had he still crashed bad. If anything Martinez is proven Moyes to be the 'myth' most people really thought he was.
The test for Martinez will be whether he can sustain this over a number of seasons. He had time to build at Wigan and took them down eventually, though obviously a club like Wigan will always be struggling to compete at this level.
However, the same could be said for Everton. If we look at the 3 seasons prior to this one I believe that Evertons overall net spend was lower than Wigans, yet one club went down and the other remained stable and more than held their own pound for pound. Its unfair on either of them to come to a definitive conclusion based on this but it could easily be argued that one of these managers (Moyes) was capable of building a stable squad of players that managed to consistently over-achieve whereas the other wasn't able to sustain a level of performance sufficient to keep his squad in the division.
Lets see where we are in a couple of seasons time. Moyes has taken on a much bigger and more difficult challenge than the one that Martinez has inherited. It'll be interesting to see whether Moyes is able to recreate that stability at a club like ours, and equally we will see whether Martinez is able to keep his team performing like this when the inevitable happens - that they start to lose some of their better players over time. He will need to be resourceful enough to replace them under the same limitations that Moyes was always faced with.
However, the same could be said for Everton. If we look at the 3 seasons prior to this one I believe that Evertons overall net spend was lower than Wigans, yet one club went down and the other remained stable and more than held their own pound for pound. Its unfair on either of them to come to a definitive conclusion based on this but it could easily be argued that one of these managers (Moyes) was capable of building a stable squad of players that managed to consistently over-achieve whereas the other wasn't able to sustain a level of performance sufficient to keep his squad in the division.
Lets see where we are in a couple of seasons time. Moyes has taken on a much bigger and more difficult challenge than the one that Martinez has inherited. It'll be interesting to see whether Moyes is able to recreate that stability at a club like ours, and equally we will see whether Martinez is able to keep his team performing like this when the inevitable happens - that they start to lose some of their better players over time. He will need to be resourceful enough to replace them under the same limitations that Moyes was always faced with.
Wages is what matters most.
So basically Moyes took over from the perfect (well best) manager ever and dismantled everything to take United into disarray. Glad we agree.
You are saying ''the united way'' is holding moyes back but in my opinion its the other way round hes holding the united way back, this club is built on attacking football and not some form of pragmatic football with some nice touches at the end. Proper attacking football with balls, Ferguson had them in ample supply does moyes?
Heres an article where Sir Bobby speaks about this clubs traditions, now Bobby is rumoured to be backing moyes so i wonder what he thought about last tuesday. Heres an excert:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...arlton-My-United-Duncan-Edwards-greatest.html
You mention Jose but to be honest i wasn't particularly fussed on us appointing Mourinho i think for most people he seemed the obvious choice to continue our success, but while i wasn't looking forward to SAF stepping down the style of the team became quite pedestrian in the last few years, probably the only period in his career where an Alex Ferguson team didn't play great football, with that in mind when he did retire i was looking forward to us at least playing some good football again. Im not sure Mourinho would have got us playing free flowing attacking football again brilliant manager though he is.
So when i heard we had appointed moyes i felt like banging my head against a wall to be honest his cautious nature shines through in almost everything he does, tactics, substitutions, transfers etc. it will be extremely difficult for him to go against his nature in the long run.
Possibly not but those who love to see their team play attractive attacking football might, in the latter stages of the Champions League a bit of pragmatism is understandable no where else for me, if Moyes can't become a manager whose team plays proper football then he should be out the door regardless of what he may or may not eventually win. I have yet to see any evidence this season that he can.
there was little DM was ever going to do to get you onside as he has never been renowned for his attacking football. That said I can hardly see you being satisfied with a wengeresque existence where we are nice to watch but win nothing.
You admit that united have been more recently pedestrian under SAF yet you expected a new manager to come in and make them more exciting in first season despite the expectations of the fans?!
I don't completely disagree With your sentiment, I just think it needs to be grounded in realism.
SAF was the most important factor in uniteds success in the three decades at the club. He is the single most consistent element of the period of his success. People need to understand that SAF genius had us playing winning football.
It's ok to dream, but there are 2 clubs in England and at least 6 clubs around Europe who are capable of consistantly outbiding us for the top footballers. This isn't fiction it's a Fact. Not sure if things were ever the same when roman arrived and took Kenyon with our shopping list!
Even when we can match wages,
Some players will opt for better climates or bigger cities.
My point is that people are very misguided if they think that united will, under any manager, continue even a fraction of the success we had under SAF. No club dominated forever, the reason being there is no full proof formula for success.
Moneybags clubs have forced clubs to think outside the box. You can say you were excited with the prospect of new football but I don't believe too many fans would be much more supportive of an attacking manager with the same league position because at the end of the day they would still demand top four.
Being extremely generous there Brwned. The only really important comparison to make is that by the end of his first season, Rodgers had Liverpool in a better position then when he took over and playing better player football, now compare that to Moyes.
Anything else is just being desperately hopeful/optimistic.
While Fletcher ultimately progressed to a level of quality necessary to be a regular for United, there were plenty of stretches of games that he was utter shit and yet SAF kept playing him. It reeked of nepotism/Fletcher being a Scot.
Yep, he came in for a lot of flak years ago. I must admit that I was never a big fan of Fletcher for quite a while but changed my mind about him.
Fletcher always seemed to me to be a 'do a job' player who you'd ask to play against certain opposition for specific purposes rather than really being the first name on the team sheet if you were naming the best side. Similar to Park in that sense.
Moyes was never the right man for the job. There's no need to drag the inevitable. Moyes is not a top manager and never will be. It's not like he has not been given time. We have watched him 11 years in the Premier league. He's pretty much known quantity.
The board made a mistake hiring him it was evident since the Summer with the transfer dealings, press conferences etc. He's Ferguson man, but it's not a surprise he fecked up in that choice. Let's not forget he was talking about Sven and Martin O'Neill succeeding him...
Yeah, a very good squad player to have since he was a good footballer who was enhanced by his work ethic, although not world class.
Aye, it may be harsh but he certainly 'improved' during his absence. Top squad player though as you say.
Sven was rumoured before this board were at the club and there was never anything other then media conjecture to suggest Oneill would get the job so not sure how you managed to taint this board with something they had no input on!
When moyes was appointed i had no choice but to give the man a chance, im no clairvoyant for all i knew it was possible he could change his style and get us playing good football, but to no great surprise to myself and a lot of people we have played some tumescent stuff this season. I actually don't blame moyes for this hes just doing what he has always done, hes a good manager who sets his team up a certain way. The fault lies with those who offered him the job in the first place.
You say i wouldn't be satisfied with us playing attractive football but not consistently winning trophies, you know this how?
Play good football with good players and you give yourself a chance of winning trophies what more could we ask for, if we win something great if we don't at least we have been entertained.
Better than playing cautious/defensive football which still doesn't guarantee you will win anything.
Come on now why is it always out of the question to expect Moyes to do anything in his first season, was this whole season a complete write off from the start just so moyes could bed in or something, or what ever the hell hes supposedly doing. The reason we are not playing good football is not because Moyes hasnt had enough time to implement it, its because thats not in his nature which is not his fault, would guardiola or wenger join a team and start playing hoof ball of course not, so why are we unfairly expecting moyes to change his own football philosophy to suit us.
When arsenal have to replace Wenger i doubt they would offer the job to a manager whose teams have rarely played entertaining football.
Plenty of managers can come in and get a team that were not playing great football to play entertaining football very quickly, it doesn't take a year it can be done in weeks/months especially with the talent we have. You just need to pick the right type of manager.
Well did many fans really still expect us to dominate after ferguson left? I don't think that they did.
I think most were realistic that it was SAF who made it possible for us to win league titles ahead of 2 sugar daddy clubs.
No one i spoke to expected much trophies from moyes for a year or two either, and i doubt anyone but the most optimistic souls expected us to ever dominate with moyes at the helm. Chelsea, City, Real or whoever can and will outbid us for players or prove a more attractive destination, but thats happened for years even before the sugar daddies, thats life but they can't buy everyone there should be enough good players left for us to be able to build an entertaining side that can challenge for trophies and come top 4 comfortably.
Top 4 and good football with this squad was fairly achievable even in a first season for the right manager, and im not talking about a superstar manager just one with the right mentality and experience.
Manchester United going right back through its history has a tradition of playing attacking and entertaining football its what the club was built on.
It was forgivable for Ferguson to compromise on that in his last few years after everything he had done for the club as he wanted to go out on a high, but even when he desperately wanted that third European Cup in 2011 he still wouldn't park the bus against Barca and try to steal a win, im sure he agonized about it but what he decided to do took balls, some things are more important than winning at all costs he respected our tradition as a club and did the right thing.
Would moyes have done the same thing in that situation? Which should tell you all you need to know about his suitability to manage this club.
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