Clev was a bit shit in his last season under Fergie. I suppose that's Moyes's man management at work...so powerfully shite it crossed the gap from Manchester to Liverpool and 1 year of time to make Cleverley the mediocre player he is today.
Moyes So Far!
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Er no he wasn't.
Cleverley's level, and that of the whole team, dropped substantially after the psychological blow of being eliminated by a referee against Madrid.
Before that game Cleverley was actually having quite a good season. Or were you howling in protest at his performances away at Chelsea, City, home to Arsenal etc? I certainly wasn't but I can't speak for you.
I hope you read the whole message. The "special" part was about his excuses, why did he need 11 new own players, why did he need 3 or 4 windows, why did he need time. And all the other new coaches are doing fine. Ancelotti, Pellegrini, Martinez, Mourinho, Martino, Garcia. Everyone of them got their players and kept their team at least at the same level. Further except Martino everyone of them improved the team massively with a new brand of football.
And like I said, Martinez is not operating on Moyes work. You only looking at the players, but he made them a complete new team. You can't say Martinez made them more attacking, but Moyes deserves the credit for the defence, because every coach needs to find his own balance. Moyes can barely create goal opportunities with Fergies attackers, because his style is a dire one.
And it's still only Martinez's first season, it's impressive to put his stamp so fast on them, look at Pool and Rodgers, usually things could get much better in the second season. And you again looking only at Lukaku, but they can improve over the years with the tactical changes Martinez did already. That's more than a short-term upgrade. Yeah lacking a striker can hurt them, but even Moyes made his 7th, 8th places with percantage football, with their new attacking style they will find a way to score goals. Pretty sure he will at least do the same with much more style.
Please, show me match reports from these regular excellent performances of his in 2012/13. He was good when he first started in 2011/12 especially in partnership with Anderson, then got injured, then became average/poor.
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Exactly, literally re-writing history to fit an anti-Moyes narrative
Pure revisionism
. He was crap at Stamford Bridge and generally wasn't that good, hence he barely played in the last 2 and a half months of the season. There's more than enough stuff to criticise for, let's not blame him for Cleverley not being good enough.Exactly, literally re-writing history to fit an anti-Moyes narrative
I suppose we had been playing expansive, attractive football for the last few years prior to Moyes as well.
I do agree with his point about Cleverley having good games away against City and Chelsea last year though.
Pure revisionism
To be honest this is a scenario i am dreading with moyes, i mean how many players has there been reports of that they could be out the door:
Lindegaard
rafael
evra
ferdinand
vidic
buttner
giggs
fletcher
cleverley
anderson
nani
young
valencia
kagawa
zaha
hernandez
van persie
17 players, obviously they wont all leave but even if moyes idea is to shift 8-12 to me that is shocking it would massively destabilize the squad. Ferguson was probably the best team/squad builder in the history of the game could never imagine him letting go of so many players in one go its lunacy.
If moyes idea of building a squad is to sell 10 players and buy 10 then his knowledge on the subject would be on similar level to most 14 year olds who play football manager of fifa in my opinion.
Im hoping most of these reports are bullshit and we only see 4-6 departures, would like to believe moyes had a bit more about him than just gutting a squad instead of trying to work with most of whats hes got and try to get performances out of them, he needs to show he has at least some man management skills.
The shocking thing is all the reports say we're looking to get rid of the Rafael's, Fletcher's, Kagawa's and Hernandez's while keeping the likes of Young and Valencia. Its gotta be some kind of joke. Honestly.
Pure revisionism
"Pro-Moyes" fans accuse "anti-Moyes" fans of "revisionism"?!Exactly, literally re-writing history to fit an anti-Moyes narrative
Ok, let's review, shall we? Here are a few posts of yours, Zen86, about Cleverley from last season:
...
Burnt.
Or just the press making stuff up?
As the saying goes, in the end the truth will out.
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Bizarre argument. It's as good as fact that our best form, both results-wise and aesthetically, was at its best when Carrick and Cleverley were playing together regularly between December and February. Following the Champions League, his form dropped off and Sir Alex, strangely, left him out for a good while.
I'd probably sell Tom this Summer given that our midfield needs room to improve, however, the revisionism is nonsense. Cleverley had a solid season last year, particularly during the period I specified.
Davey's new quotes today as as embarrassing as they were yesterday, by the way. Yet more pessimism and negativity towards a job he is lucky to have. Ungrateful loser.
I was one of few who stuck up for him yes, but he was hardly winning widespread acclaim among United fans prior to Moyes coming in.
If you would have said to me that'd we still be mathematically in the title race after 32 games under Moyes in our first season... I'd have taken it.
Mentioned this in the Premier League thread but...
and Everton have a game in hand. They're going to finish above us unless they collapse spectacularly and we go on a brilliant run.
Moyes has taken the League Champions below Everton. Yet it seems like he's going to be given another year and £200 million to build his own team despite showing absolutely no progress in any footballing plan that he might have.
It's mental!
and Everton have a game in hand. They're going to finish above us unless they collapse spectacularly and we go on a brilliant run.
Moyes has taken the League Champions below Everton. Yet it seems like he's going to be given another year and £200 million to build his own team despite showing absolutely no progress in any footballing plan that he might have.
It's mental!
In Moyes' defence, Guardiola has had a year to learn German. Moyes was only given a few months to learn whatever language they speak in Manchester so it's easy to see why Pep is doing far better.
I sincerely think he's gone. The post-match reaction after the Villa game has been the most reserved we've ever been following a victory this season. Couple in the flurry of recent damning articles from the papers, and finally sprinkle in the bizarre and frankly desperate quotes from Moyes.
Glazers will get rid come May.
Glazers will get rid come May.
Judging by his interviews he still hasn't grasped it yet...
He's learning Tryish
I think he will be here next season. For how long into the new season is anyone's guess but I have no doubt that we will not get rid this summer.
I said it before but i can see Moyes taking credit for Everton this season and use it as a reason why he needs time at United. But that is the same team he more or less had last season and they have kicked it up a gear while we, the champions, have dropped down a few.
Can anyone guess what the major factor in all this has been?!
I did think this as well, for a manager under as much public scrutiny as he was at the weekend, the players' reaction to the goals weren't those of people glad to be relieving pressure from him. I can't conceive of the Manchester United manager being allowed to continue after finishing 7th playing drab football, particularly without the support of the dressing room. But then, we are weird like that.
One of the best posts that's been on here recently, nail on the head.
There's nothing dignified about the man. In his own unique cowardly way he's implied that our underachievement is the fault of everyone except him. It's the players, the squad he's been left with, it's injuries, it's bad luck etc etc. Every possible attempt made to try and excuse the fact that he's no better than Hodgson. Same cowardice, same underperformance, same defeatist attitude and all the rest.
He's an absolute charlatan and I have no idea how anyone has been hoodwinked by him. His total and utter incompetence is as clear as anything. It will be a brilliant, brilliant day when we sack him.
I never thought he was that.....pathetic. Everything he says in the media at the moment contains elements prime for ridicule. He seems to be on a roll now with the excuses, while his sickly courting of the supporters is ramped up to just about every pre and post match conference or interview. He knows that without the fans he is nothing, the owners would see that as severely damaging if the stadium was openly hostile towards him.
It's got to the point now that he's succeeded in making everyone feel sorry for him and his "tough" situation. He's basically been an utter failure this season but in typical British fashion everyone loves an honest failure. The match going fans new outlook is "yes he's a failure, but he's OUR failure!"
It's got to the point now that he's succeeded in making everyone feel sorry for him and his "tough" situation. He's basically been an utter failure this season but in typical British fashion everyone loves an honest failure. The match going fans new outlook is "yes he's a failure, but he's OUR failure!"
yeah....so...er, what?
so what moyes needed was a year in the premier league to:
- See premier league matches
- Learn English
- Take over a team that had maybe win a trophy of some kind.
I'm sort of accepting that Moyes will be here beyond the summer.
What is really bugging me though, is the amount of excuses that have been made for him. Yes, we know he hasn't inherited one of the greatest United sides but he had inherited the champions. Is it really acceptable where we are in the table? Playing the way we've played? Is the situation Moyes inherited really all down to the 'bad hand' SAF left him with?
SAF left us with a top goalkeeper, experienced CBs in Rio and Vidic with Jones, Smalling and Evans all talented enough to cement a place in the team, Kagawa, Nani and a promising kid in Januzaj (who pretty much carried us earlier on in the season), two world class strikers with top replacements in Hernandez and Welbeck.
OK, we were a bit short in the full back area, particularly at LB. But Moyes spent all summer pursuing Baines and then when he realised he wouldn't get him, went for Coentrao on the last fecking day, when it was too late and Real wouldn't let him go.
We have also been short in CM for a while now too. Fellaini was available for FAR cheaper which he would have been well aware of, and yet we end up signing this guy for close to £30m. Was he really sure Fellaini would be a good addition for us, or did he do it out of desperation? Either way, it was concerning. And then the excuse was, he wanted to do a double deal for him and Baines.
We also weren't left with the best wide options but is playing Young really the way to move forward? Hadn't Moyes seen enough in training and over the course of the season to realise that starting Young and Valencia in an important Champions League tie away from home was a bad idea? Really? In fairness, he has 'brought through' Januzaj but then if a kid is saving your team's backside week in and week out, he was always going to be played. I'm more disappointed that we haven't seen more of Kagawa, who has been worse than last season, where there were at least some promising moments.
Speaking of players who are worse than last season, let's list them: Rio, Vidic, Evra, Rafael, Smalling, Jones, Carrick, Cleverley, Young, Kagawa, Hernandez, RvP.
Players who have improved: Rooney (inevitable really), Welbeck
(Apologies if I've missed out anyone obvious on either side)
Our older CBs have turned into OAPs from last season to this (conveniently), and the promising talent haven't really cemented themselves. The amount of times he played Rio and Vidic at the start of the season was staggering, when all of us on the caf knew that they need to be managed and not play much more than once a week. Was Moyes really not aware that they needed to be managed? Seriously? Surely it's basic stuff. Where has the progression been with the younger players (apart from Januzaj?). If so many players have dipped from last season compared to this, and the only change is the manager, is it wrong to deduce that Moyes has to take most of the blame? I accept that it was always going to be difficult after SAF but no-one thought it would be this bad.
I refuse to believe that SAF, or another top manager couldn't have done better. The football has been drab, the performances have been largely poor, many results have been terrible and there haven't been many signs of progress. He hasn't displayed an ability to get the players showing much fight through the tough times. All he keeps saying is that it's a long-term project and that we need work. Fair enough, we do need some new additions but it's Moyes himself that needs to step up because as it stands, he has shown very few signs that he's up to the task.
What is really bugging me though, is the amount of excuses that have been made for him. Yes, we know he hasn't inherited one of the greatest United sides but he had inherited the champions. Is it really acceptable where we are in the table? Playing the way we've played? Is the situation Moyes inherited really all down to the 'bad hand' SAF left him with?
SAF left us with a top goalkeeper, experienced CBs in Rio and Vidic with Jones, Smalling and Evans all talented enough to cement a place in the team, Kagawa, Nani and a promising kid in Januzaj (who pretty much carried us earlier on in the season), two world class strikers with top replacements in Hernandez and Welbeck.
OK, we were a bit short in the full back area, particularly at LB. But Moyes spent all summer pursuing Baines and then when he realised he wouldn't get him, went for Coentrao on the last fecking day, when it was too late and Real wouldn't let him go.
We have also been short in CM for a while now too. Fellaini was available for FAR cheaper which he would have been well aware of, and yet we end up signing this guy for close to £30m. Was he really sure Fellaini would be a good addition for us, or did he do it out of desperation? Either way, it was concerning. And then the excuse was, he wanted to do a double deal for him and Baines.
We also weren't left with the best wide options but is playing Young really the way to move forward? Hadn't Moyes seen enough in training and over the course of the season to realise that starting Young and Valencia in an important Champions League tie away from home was a bad idea? Really? In fairness, he has 'brought through' Januzaj but then if a kid is saving your team's backside week in and week out, he was always going to be played. I'm more disappointed that we haven't seen more of Kagawa, who has been worse than last season, where there were at least some promising moments.
Speaking of players who are worse than last season, let's list them: Rio, Vidic, Evra, Rafael, Smalling, Jones, Carrick, Cleverley, Young, Kagawa, Hernandez, RvP.
Players who have improved: Rooney (inevitable really), Welbeck
(Apologies if I've missed out anyone obvious on either side)
Our older CBs have turned into OAPs from last season to this (conveniently), and the promising talent haven't really cemented themselves. The amount of times he played Rio and Vidic at the start of the season was staggering, when all of us on the caf knew that they need to be managed and not play much more than once a week. Was Moyes really not aware that they needed to be managed? Seriously? Surely it's basic stuff. Where has the progression been with the younger players (apart from Januzaj?). If so many players have dipped from last season compared to this, and the only change is the manager, is it wrong to deduce that Moyes has to take most of the blame? I accept that it was always going to be difficult after SAF but no-one thought it would be this bad.
I refuse to believe that SAF, or another top manager couldn't have done better. The football has been drab, the performances have been largely poor, many results have been terrible and there haven't been many signs of progress. He hasn't displayed an ability to get the players showing much fight through the tough times. All he keeps saying is that it's a long-term project and that we need work. Fair enough, we do need some new additions but it's Moyes himself that needs to step up because as it stands, he has shown very few signs that he's up to the task.
Not the same team at all.
Lukaku, Barry, McCarthy, Deulofeu in.
Fellani out.
The whole backroom staff changed as well.
Moyes would never have looked at those players, though. He'd have signed Ricky Lambert, Cattermole etc.
you must be very well informed
Sure, like he signed Arteta, Distin, Mirallas, Yakubu, Oveido, Pienaar, Howard, Coleman....
Only scouted for overpriced English players, did Moyes.
Just seen a Scouser with a banner saying 'Brendan Rodgers - the carefully chosen one' at the Liverpool vs Spurs game. They're loving this.
That's good. I'll give them that one. Ah, we're a laughing stock.
Fair point.
The ones that are still there have been so much better under Martinez though.
If Everton qualify for the Champions League and beat us twice this season, can we sack him then?
The evidence would be conclusive.
The evidence would be conclusive.
It's the same Everton team with a couple of signings that's battling hard to finish in a Champions league spot, it's the same United team with a couple of signings that's battling hard for a Europa league spot.
Common denominator ?
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