The later, in the 2nd leg. Not because they'd be kind exactly but just because the tie would be dead.
Moyes So Far!
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The later, in the 2nd leg. Not because they'd be kind exactly but just because the tie would be dead.
Fellaini and Carrick vs that midfield, god help us.
Yes. I know I've been one of the most vocal Moyes supporters on here but not even I'm deluded enough to think we'll get a result here. The only way we've even got a chance is if Moyes transforms into Mourinho, Fellaini transforms into De Rossi, Carrick transforms into Beckenbauer and Messi gives up this whole Barcelona lark and joins us on a free.
Incidentally while in the newbies I always supported Mourinho as the top prospect for the United job. Inexplicable why we didn't go for him, but I think we owe it to Fergie and Sir Bobby to trust their judgement for one shite season.
I don't think it'll be a huge scoreline. We'll play defensively, barely hold the ball. It'll be a footballing lesson but Bayern won't go for the kill.
During press conferences or interviews, why are journalists so nice to him (not that I want them to tear him apart) ? He's barely been asked tough questions, where is Shreeves?
There's only 3 reasons I can think of:-
1) He has a good relationship with them from Everton days and they're kind of showing some loyalty to him (nationals in particular, the M.E.N etc won't know him due to not reporting on Everton)
2) A lot have been banned from our press conferences in the past and don't want it to happen again, therefore are careful what they say. Especially if they think, or know, this is a long term appointment. Man Utd is money for papers and if you're not allowed in the presser for the next 5 years you're a bit fecked.
3) He's British, if he messes up this job it really does British managers no favours. Whilst there's still Rodgers he will be tested next season when they're in the CL and competing for cups, not to take anything away from Rodgers who has done a really good job this season but they had no Europe, only 2 games in the LC (1 against Notts County) and 3 in the FA Cup (only 1 vs. top flight opposition) if Moyes messes up this season and gets sacked and Rodgers struggles next season then it makes them look pretty bad and you'd imagine it could be the end of them. I'd guess the press have better relationships with these managers than foreign managers due to knowing them in previous roles.
With regards to Moyes it's baffling me now it really is. I think it's obvious he's out his depth, what has done it is these bizarre press conferences, we strive to be at City's level etc. No matter how much it's true you don't say it. Liverpool favourites vs us, that's losing a game before it's even kicked off. I supported him for a while but it seems apparent he isn't a top level manager. The tactics are negative. Sometimes it's like we're happy to draw or even lose 1-0. Last night and the Liverpool game are key examples of it, he just didn't know or doesn't have the balls to change it a bit.
In his credit there needs to be a huge overhaul on that squad. Evra is an embarrassment now in my opinion (no one will change my mind on that either, no matter how over the top it might be!), Rio is well past his best, the squad players of Cleverley etc aren't particularly any use at all really. The only players I'd be disappointed if we actually lost them would be de Gea, Rafael, Jones and Rooney really! The problem is realistically I'm not sure what top manager would take the Man Utd job at the moment. It really is a big rebuilding process and there's far more attractive options you'd expect at the end of the season. Some people at the game last night were suggesting Guardiola would of taken it, it's just deluded thinking in my opinion, there's no way he was ever going to take the United job.
If Moyes had United where Wenger is it'd be regarded as a decent season.
Might as well get this off my chest, seeing as I have a reputation as being a "Moyes apologist"
I think I'm done with him.
It's crazy the way my opinion shifts on a game by game basis - when I've always said I'd reserve judgement for at least a season, if not longer - but last night was just woeful. The final straw. We've belatedly picked up a tiny bit of form and what does Moyes do? Picks an XI that had not started a single game together and starts with a formation we hadn't used once this season. Then shits himself as soon as City score and reverts to the usual 442, only with the wrong players to play that formation. Kept it up for the whole of the first half too. Although it seems like he was in two minds as apparently he had Valencia strip down and get dressed again at least twice.
That's absolutely shambolic management. For all the mitigating factors this season (and there are many) I can't condone or excuse that sort of weakness and indecision when it comes to the team and tactics he used in a big game. He clearly lacks the charisma or leadership to inspire the team and now he's evidently not even confident in himself. It's always been clear that he has a steep learnning curve ahead of him but he's not learning. He's regressing. The sooner we get rid the better.
I think I'm done with him.
It's crazy the way my opinion shifts on a game by game basis - when I've always said I'd reserve judgement for at least a season, if not longer - but last night was just woeful. The final straw. We've belatedly picked up a tiny bit of form and what does Moyes do? Picks an XI that had not started a single game together and starts with a formation we hadn't used once this season. Then shits himself as soon as City score and reverts to the usual 442, only with the wrong players to play that formation. Kept it up for the whole of the first half too. Although it seems like he was in two minds as apparently he had Valencia strip down and get dressed again at least twice.
That's absolutely shambolic management. For all the mitigating factors this season (and there are many) I can't condone or excuse that sort of weakness and indecision when it comes to the team and tactics he used in a big game. He clearly lacks the charisma or leadership to inspire the team and now he's evidently not even confident in himself. It's always been clear that he has a steep learnning curve ahead of him but he's not learning. He's regressing. The sooner we get rid the better.
This. If we even looked competitive with the top teams it would be forgiveable. We might not even make the Europa league at this rate. I don't feel confident we can go to Everton and get a result. Wouldn't be surprised if Martinez's new look Everton passed Moyes' Man Utd off the park actually.
Can he play in a midfield 2 ?
Yes, Pogue! I knew you would come to your senses.
I respect how long you stuck with him. I tried but I'm too emotional, got too angry, and couldn't.
yeah, but Arsenal fans are now starting to realise that settling is not good enough
My opinion changes on a game by game basis too, though I try to keep some semblance of a position on here, lest I flip flop around(which would look even more retarded).
I think he's performed very poorly, but there are a ton of mitigating factors which have contributed to it. While I have a negative opinion of his thus far, some of the vitriol spewed on here - about him personally as a man, the pseudo psychological analysis on his every word, and so on and so forth - has been way OTT, and deserves some opposition. He has been poor so far, but I think we (as fans) owe it to SAF - and god I had my doubts about his judgement too - and Sir Bobby to trust them for 2 seasons. After all they've given the club, we should allow them that.
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Well, Pogue has turned. How many are left? Rossi will have his army soon enough.
In the summer when Ancelotti, Guardiola and Mourinho switched clubs, we picked David Moyes.
. Incredible really. And the worst thing is that the majority knew it wouldnt work right from the off. Not thing bad, mind but still.Where is tomalonge?
Under his bed, hiding.Where is tomalonge?
I've even started commenting on the official Facebook and twitter pages, something I've never done. We need to be heard, it's already making it's way into the stands.
Yeah, I think it'd be similar to when teams near the bottom of the league get hammered by a top team and immediately sack their manager. Unless they felt the decision was the right one, regardless of being beaten by Bayern, I don't see anything happening.
That said, I've been one of the people advocating Moyes getting more time. That was probably borne out of that sense of fairness, where I felt that he needed plenty of time to do what was always going to be a massive job. I always felt that he should get a couple of seasons, give or take, to shape the team the way he wanted and implement the changes he needed to. That was always premised on him showing a degree of progress and sadly at the moment there doesn't seem to be very many signs of that. When, before Christmas, we went on that decent run I thought that might be the start of the new beginning. It seems it was just one of a series of false dawns.
At the moment I'm struggling to find any way to defend him, tbh. My biggest worry when we were linked with him was the style of football. Not the not having won things, as I always felt that if he played a good brand of football and spent the money on the right players, the trophies would follow. For most of the season we've played the worst brand of football I've seen United play in a long, long time. The style of football we're playing looks to be a decade behind the really top sides, and the gap is only widening. At the start of the season he couldn't get the wingers playing. Now he seems to be moving away from wingers and he can't get those players playing either. We spent £65m odd on Fellaini and Mata, neither of whom went any way to solving the glaring problems we had. One of Moyes' biggest selling points was how organised and defensively structured we would be. Thus far we've been a shambles. In fairness, it's not his fault that Vidic went over the hill and decided to move, or that Rio and Evra look to be past their sell by dates. If Fergie were here I have no doubt that they'd look much better players, even if they weren't quite as good as when they were at their best.
Yes, he's been unlucky with injuries to key players, but let's be honest, those will happen during a season. It's how you react to them that's important. We haven't been able to cope.
Then there's his performance against good (not just top) sides. In the majority of games we've not only been poor, we've actually been outplayed by much weaker sides, quite often at OT. I always felt that Moyes' record against the bigger sides was overplayed and would right itself this season, but it hasn't. In fact, I've seen plenty of Everton performances under Moyes against top sides better than what we've been able to turn in.
To me that's been down to a couple of things: first our tactics are very easily stifled. If teams press us we go to pieces. Second the team is now a bag of nerves. They play without any sort of confidence or assurance. Once we face a decent side, you can see the nerves start jangling almost immediately. Once we go behind or struggle to make a breakthrough, we fall to pieces. Third, we've been shocking defensively. If we gave the likes of Rooney and RvP a solid base I think they'd win us plenty of games. And finally a lack of players. It's been done to death, but we fecked up the summer window, were playing catch up in January and arguably got the one deal we didn't really need to do - as good a player as Mata is - across the line. Finally, we seem almost incapable of playing on the front foot. Moyes' teams look so uncomfortable when faced with having to go at half decent teams, rather than try hit them on the counter, or nick something. Again, to be fair, that might be something that he would develop the longer he stays at the club. Or it might not. He might just end up forcing a top team to play top 8 football.
So with all of that said, I'm not sure where he goes from here. If, for example, he bought Kroos, Vidal and a couple of other top players during the summer, would they massively change things. Or would they, like Mata, and to a lesser extent, Kagawa, just be good players in a misfiring system, getting more and more frustrated by being forced to play in a system that doesn't suit them, much less work against top sides. My concern is that you get those types of players - if they'd even be interested in a season without CL - and they paper over the cracks, when the real problem may be that the manager is, while obviously a decent, honourable man, wildly out of his depth.
Sadly I'm at the point where I'm pretty uncomfortable giving him a massive budget during the summer. His two signings so far have done almost nothing for him. Fellaini has looked decent against weaker sides, but faced with any sort of quality he's struggled. He was okay against Liverpool, for example, but he just doesn't have that ability to use the ball that teams like us should be aspiring to. Mata could be a great signing, but in the present system, under the current manager, I can only see him being an expensive luxury, somewhat like Berbatov, where you're always left wanting more. So, in that sense, I'm probably at the point where I'd cut our losses rather than persevere with something that looks so patently wrong. I always wanted us to say that we gave Fergie's successor time and that he was afforded every opportunity to be successful, but when it seems so likely that you've made a mistake, you sometimes just have to be brutal and move him on for the good of the club. Obviously I hope that isn't necessary and that we show signs of progress over the rest of the season that stand us in good stead for next season but right now I think that requires Moyes to basically become a different manager and I don't see that happening.
EDIT: Feck me, that was quite an essay. Apologies.
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Agreed. Match going fans have to make it clear that he's got to go. Sadly, booing might be needed at this stage.
You would have to be crackers to stand by him.
Fixed.
I think Moyes has travelled to far down the negative path to come back now. How on earth can any of the players have confidence or trust in his abilities after last nights tactical nightmare and indecision. We're 7th, but if you take the results from the beginning of Jan...we are no way 7th...we are mid to above relegation. That's some monumental fall. There are mitigating circumstances, but not enough to balance the failures he has achieved and keeps on achieving...
Good post, I agree with this.
His positions surely become untenable, only yesterday I swore to myself that I would reserve judgement until the end of the season, but we have already reached the end of our season.
Fans around the ground are already turning, the media just aren't highlighting it for some reason, there might actually need to be booing indeed.
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Don't apologise, that was a great post and sums up a lot of the concerns people currently have with Moyes and the reluctance to just hand him a massive transfer budget in the summer.
Pogue and Brophs both bail on Moyes in the space of 10 minutes? The writing is on the wall, the Irish have turned.
David Moyes: Man Utd boss takes responsibility after loss to Man City
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/26742897
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/26742897
I find this quite bizarre, because I actually thought the first half yesterday was rather encouraging. For the last 25 minutes we were the better side, we played at a fantastic tempo, considering the opposition I'd say it was the best tempo I've seen from us this season, and I really think it's being ignored simply because the final ball was lacking. Mata, Rooney and Welbeck continually picked up space between the lines and we did carry a counter attacking threat, and for one of the few times this season at home we looked dangerous. Players actually had options on the ball too, another thing that has rarely happened this season. He also changed things tactically, something he refused to do against Liverpool, which again showed a bit of improvement , and it worked, in that first half. Even taking the ineptitude of the second half into account, we were woeful, and Moyes' idiocy in not bringing Valencia on instead of Kagawa and then shunting our biggest goal threat into CM, yesterday's performance was still a thousand times better than the Liverpool game, which is why I find it bizarre that it was the last straw for you. However, obviously I totally understand why people want him out, for a variety of reasons this season has been a total disaster, and Moyes is clearly a key ingredient in that. If he got sacked he could have no complaints.
Thanks, I think it's a bit of joke if it's true that British managers are more protected than others. I can understand about not wanting to be banned and lose the Utd's stories.
This should be enough to show to his last few supporters that he isn't the right man for the job. No matter the circumstances outside his action (injuries, suspensions), he has showed not a single promising element, not a single thing to use as an example of him being the right man.
That's nice. I am fairly certain that we are all blaming him, anyway.
David Moyes is highly respected in the game therefore I can see why people blame the players.
It's interesting this:
A lot more behind the scenes than we think, this summer will be interesting as Chicharito told his people:
It's interesting this:
A lot more behind the scenes than we think, this summer will be interesting as Chicharito told his people:
Yeah, when it comes to flip flopping I'm guilty as charged.
I also hate the personal vitriol, the pseudo-psychoanalysis of every interview he gives, the down-playing of his achievement at Everton, the idea that is simply incompetent as a football manager etc. etc. etc.
I've come to the conclusion, though, that he's not cut out for this job. Or at the very least, it will take him so long to grow into the role that in the event he never steps up we'll have wasted a staggering amount of time and money on someone who turns out a failure.
having read the article, it seems he is always stepping up to take the blame for everything, but where are the players, yes he picks the team but they should be more than capable, if I remember correctly everyone was happy with the named team...now its moyes fault?
He tried something new, then didn't have the balls to see it through. My initial concern was trying something new (as in, completely untested) in such a big game but if you're going to try something out the at least have the courage of your convictions. We did improve once we reverted to our usual formation but it was such a regressive step, it was just depressing. City caught us on the hop in the opening minutes and we completely shat ourselves and lost our shape for 10-15 minutes. Chances are things might have settled eventually, anyway, then Moyes could see if his novel approach was working. Instead, he never gave it a chance. That's what did my head in. Along with the valencia/Rooney stuff you mention.
Identifying your personal "final straw" is a pretty inexact science anyway. It's obviously the weight of evidence built up before then that matters most.
How much longer do we have to put up with this cancer killing our club?
Bayern will be like the chemo next week, painfull but totally necessary to rid us of him.
Bayern will be like the chemo next week, painfull but totally necessary to rid us of him.
It's all guess work on my behalf but it seems the most logical explanation for me. The prime example is AVB's treatment and they were in a better position than us (and in theory are a "worse" club) yet he was presented as some kind of failure.
You brought up a good example with pundits re Shreeves originally. He usually can't wait to give bad news and rub it in. Last night he seemed to really feel sorry for Moyes and sounded like he felt bad asking the questions. The key one for me was the Fellaini red card, Moyes said he hadn't seen it and Shreeves let him off. I'm sure there was a manager earlier in the season who said something like that and was put on the spot and pretty much made to watch the incident with Shreeves and comment on it there and then.
I think the British thing has a part to play. There's some people the press have warmed to, Mourinho being the key one and Jurgen Klopp was seen as a character by our press but if you look at the others it's just not the same. Pellegrini has a club on the brink of winning the league, he lost to Wigan in the cup and was slated for ages for it, people questioning his job and he can still win the league. I just think our media doesn't want to warm to the foreign managers.
I agree with the Everton point, he is a good manager for that level but unfortunately for him and at the moment United he has been found wanting at the very top. People always have a selective memory on stuff. It's revisionist history to suit their argument which is always hard to listen to, he did a lot of good for Everton and they're in the position they're in now because of him regardless of how well Martinez has done.)
I kind of feel sorry for him despite not really wanting him here. The players have hid behind him all season and let him take the flak. There's only a handful who can take some kind of pride from this season. Equally he's not going to turn down the United job so was put in an impossible situation really, it's a shame it didn't work out but that's the way it is I suppose.
And like chemo, it may not be successful. We might need more chemo.
I'm starting to irrationally hate the man. Every time I see his face or hear his voice my urge to kill rises.
Please Fergie admit you've made a mistake and do the right thing as soon as possible.
Please Fergie admit you've made a mistake and do the right thing as soon as possible.
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