Moyes So Far!

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togg said:
True..but if he wins the league this season...and there is no doubt they are right in it...then that will certainly negate it to a large extent...certainly with the money City and chelsea have...
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Cheesy said:
True, although Rodgers fits less into that honest, hard working type of guys like Redknapp and Allardyce. While he's a British manager, he's a lot more modern and attacking in his approach to the point where his managerial style is probably a lot more similar to some continental managers than it is to the aforementioned ones above.
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Yep, I agree if he wins the league it'll be almost a tale of two appointments. But like Cheesy said, Rodgers is a slightly different case to Moyes. His rise has been meteoric because his tactical nouse seems legit. Moyes is one of the lot that "put in a shift"...The idea behind his appointment was that Everton were holding him back from going any further, not the other way around.
 
Mockney said:
Yep, I agree if he wins the league it'll be almost a tale of two appointments. But like Cheesy said, Rodgers is a slightly different case to Moyes. His rise has been meteoric because his tactical nouse seems legit. Moyes is one of the lot that "put in a shift"...The idea behind his appointment was that Everton were holding him back from going any further, not the other way around.
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Yeah...I agree with that. I've always thought that the general concensus of Moyes was that he was a great manager being curtailed by the shoestring budget at Everton...and that once unleashed with funds and a bigger stage, he would excel. Perceptions can often be wrong...
 
Comsmit said:

Ferguson and Charlton are non-executive Directors, so they don't really hold any power in the boardroom. It is people like Woodward and Richard Arnold who hold more sway. If United's sponsorship quest is disrupted by the plight on the pitch then Arnold is sure to highlight his concerns. What the two old boys have is influence, but their hand is weakened by the plight of Moyes. It may encourage the owners to insist on a much tighter recruitment and selection policy for the next coach.
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This is true, and perhaps I wasn't clear enough. If the Glazers did sack Moyes, it would clearly be against the wishes of Fergie and Charlton. Who knows what they would do in response to that? Fergie many not wield executive powers but he sure as hell commands the popular support of the fans worldwide and that, I submit, is a far bigger stick to carry than what he might have as an executive. He's got a stand named after him, a street, and a statue. Winston Churchill only has two of those. Charlton, though popular with the fans, wouldn't excite the level of revolutionary fervour that Fergie would. We'd get some bleating in the MEN about Charlton's life-long links to the club and his role as a living link to the Babes, but that's about it. I don't mean to be flippant or disrespectful to the man, but there are, I suspect, many supporters to whom Bobby Charlton is just a face from the past that sits in the director's box. The Glazers could bypass Charlton but not Fergie.

As you say, Arnold is the guy whose opinion will count with the Glazers. He's the man with his eye on what the global brand is doing. No CL, and the sponsors will get itchy feet. Share prices have already dropped. I suppose the question is, how much of a drop can the Glazers afford, bearing in mind that the debt, although reduced, is still a large sum of money. Woodward has already commented on this but wasn't convincing. Time will tell but the way things are going, that 6 year contract may turn out to be a millstone round the Glazers' necks, even if the debt wasn't.
 
Moriarty said:
This is true, and perhaps I wasn't clear enough. If the Glazers did sack Moyes, it would clearly be against the wishes of Fergie and Charlton. Who knows what they would do in response to that? Fergie many not wield executive powers but he sure as hell commands the popular support of the fans worldwide and that, I submit, is a far bigger stick to carry than what he might have as an executive. He's got a stand named after him, a street, and a statue. Winston Churchill only has two of those. Charlton, though popular with the fans, wouldn't excite the level of revolutionary fervour that Fergie would. We'd get some bleating in the MEN about Charlton's life-long links to the club and his role as a living link to the Babes, but that's about it. I don't mean to be flippant or disrespectful to the man, but there are, I suspect, many supporters to whom Bobby Charlton is just a face from the past that sits in the director's box. The Glazers could bypass Charlton but not Fergie.

As you say, Arnold is the guy whose opinion will count with the Glazers. He's the man with his eye on what the global brand is doing. No CL, and the sponsors will get itchy feet. Share prices have already dropped. I suppose the question is, how much of a drop can the Glazers afford, bearing in mind that the debt, although reduced, is still a large sum of money. Woodward has already commented on this but wasn't convincing. Time will tell but the way things are going, that 6 year contract may turn out to be a millstone round the Glazers' necks, even if the debt wasn't.
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I'd have to think they wouldn't mind a share price drop in the slightest. They seem like exactly the type of people who would want to buy them back at a cheaper price than they sold for anyway. Anyway, they're non-voting, non-divedend paying shares anyway. They made their money at the IPO.
 
Would it actually change anyone's opinion if he did overturn the Olympiakos tie, I think I would still struggle to trust him although want nothing more than for him to succeed, we've been served up so much poor form both on field and in the press that even a magnificent run from now until the end would still leave behind the worry of this seasons mess.
 
gasmanc said:
Would it actually change anyone's opinion if he did overturn the Olympiakos tie, I think I would still struggle to trust him although want nothing more than for him to succeed, we've been served up so much poor form both on field and in the press that even a magnificent run from now until the end would still leave behind the worry of this seasons mess.
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It would at least show he is able to motivate a team against some adversity.
 
gasmanc said:
Would it actually change anyone's opinion if he did overturn the Olympiakos tie, I think I would still struggle to trust him although want nothing more than for him to succeed, we've been served up so much poor form both on field and in the press that even a magnificent run from now until the end would still leave behind the worry of this seasons mess.
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One game alone wouldn't change my mind...as much as one game alone didn't change my original support and faith in him. Beat Olympiakos and thrash Liverpool and city......well........
 
Dwazza Van Porschie said:
I'd have to think they wouldn't mind a share price drop in the slightest. They seem like exactly the type of people who would want to buy them back at a cheaper price than they sold for anyway. Anyway, they're non-voting, non-divedend paying shares anyway. They made their money at the IPO.
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You're sure? They are non-voting shares but if I am not mistaken the get dividents (if the club decides to give dividents to shareholders which is Glazer's call). It wouldn't make sense to be both non-voting and non-divident paying shares. If that is true, then why someone would buy them, you can't vote and you don't get money from dividents?! Of course, there is the possibility of selling them, but still, why should anyone buy them?
 
Moriarty said:
This is true, and perhaps I wasn't clear enough. If the Glazers did sack Moyes, it would clearly be against the wishes of Fergie and Charlton. Who knows what they would do in response to that? Fergie many not wield executive powers but he sure as hell commands the popular support of the fans worldwide and that, I submit, is a far bigger stick to carry than what he might have as an executive. He's got a stand named after him, a street, and a statue. Winston Churchill only has two of those. Charlton, though popular with the fans, wouldn't excite the level of revolutionary fervour that Fergie would. We'd get some bleating in the MEN about Charlton's life-long links to the club and his role as a living link to the Babes, but that's about it. I don't mean to be flippant or disrespectful to the man, but there are, I suspect, many supporters to whom Bobby Charlton is just a face from the past that sits in the director's box. The Glazers could bypass Charlton but not Fergie.

As you say, Arnold is the guy whose opinion will count with the Glazers. He's the man with his eye on what the global brand is doing. No CL, and the sponsors will get itchy feet. Share prices have already dropped. I suppose the question is, how much of a drop can the Glazers afford, bearing in mind that the debt, although reduced, is still a large sum of money. Woodward has already commented on this but wasn't convincing. Time will tell but the way things are going, that 6 year contract may turn out to be a millstone round the Glazers' necks, even if the debt wasn't.
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It would be interesting to see Ferguson's reaction if the owners did make a call. I'm really not sure he would speak out too vigorously, his latest comments on Moyes indicate a level of apathy with the current situation. They didn't seem to suggest a staunch defence of the man he chose. Perhaps it is simply down to the fact he is having the time of his life, and doesn't care half as much as he thought he might.

It would probably be an affront to him, but then again this would be one time the supporters as a whole would probably not side with him.
 
Revan said:
You're sure? They are non-voting shares but if I am not mistaken the get dividents (if the club decides to give dividents to shareholders which is Glazer's call). It wouldn't make sense to be both non-voting and non-divident paying shares. If that is true, then why someone would buy them, you can't vote and you don't get money from dividents?! Of course, there is the possibility of selling them, but still, why should anyone buy them?
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Status. Who doesn't want to own part of Man Utd?

But in fairness I could be wrong about the dividend. Not that anyone cares about dividends anymore, it's all about share prices, buy low sell high etc.
 
Dwazza Van Porschie said:
I'd have to think they wouldn't mind a share price drop in the slightest. They seem like exactly the type of people who would want to buy them back at a cheaper price than they sold for anyway. Anyway, they're non-voting, non-divedend paying shares anyway. They made their money at the IPO.
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I'll have to defer to you on that but don't they have a duty under law to ensure that the shareholders' investments are protected, if not maximised? I didn't take Company Law back in the day and my knowledge of that is limited.
 
Comsmit said:
It would be interesting to see Ferguson's reaction if the owners did make a call. I'm really not sure he would speak out too vigorously, his latest comments on Moyes indicate a level of apathy with the current situation. They didn't seem to suggest a staunch defence of the man he chose. Perhaps it is simply down to the fact he is having the time of his life, and doesn't care half as much as he thought he might.

It would probably be an affront to him, but then again this would be one time the supporters as a whole would probably not side with him.
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Who knows? Your opinion is good as the next man's as far as what might happen. I don't think I'd side with him on this issue though.
 
Dwazza Van Porschie said:
Status. Who doesn't want to own part of Man Utd?

But in fairness I could be wrong about the dividend. Not that anyone cares about dividends anymore, it's all about share prices, buy low sell high etc.
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If you don't have the right to vote and don't get dividents then why you would want to get shares. After the debt is payed (and with the new TV/Nike/Chevrolet) deals it is very possible that Glazers will annualy get 50m or so dividents for year. But still, those other shareholders won't get nothing.

I am not sure about that, but I just don't get the logic of owning those kind of shares and have never heard about that.
 
Moriarty said:
I'll have to defer to you on that but don't they have a duty under law to ensure that the shareholders' investments are protected, if not maximised? I didn't take Company Law back in the day and my knowledge of that is limited.
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You make a fair point, but I'm thinking a small dip in share price, nothing too drastic.
 
What would change the minds of Moyesey's skeptics is a consistent run of positive form. Turning over Olympiakos alone won't do it, nor even taking three points off West Brom then three off Liverpool.

Finishing the season strong is a non-negotiable precondition for Moyes to enjoy the kind of support he needs, at least in my judgment, for the board to determine in May that he has earned the right to remain United manager for a second season.
 
Moriarty said:
Who knows? Your opinion is good as the next man's as far as what might happen. I don't think I'd side with him on this issue though.
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Me neither. In fact I would say he is a big part of the problem. He is the elephant in the room no one wants to or will want to confront.
 
UnofficialDevil said:
Or by winning Olybiakos by 3-0 but neither will happen.
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I know the general mood is sombre and all negative. But we're 2-0 down to Olympiakos, who scored through almost unusual weird deflected goal, and a worldly strike, and generated not a lot else.
We're not 2-0 down to Bayern or Barcelona and have an away game to get through like City and Arsenal! Their games are write offs, we still have a hope if we play well.

We surely can't play anywhere near as badly as the away game, that was bottom 3 of the season material.
 
Sandikan said:
I know the general mood is sombre and all negative. But we're 2-0 down to Olympiakos, who scored through almost unusual weird deflected goal, and a worldly strike, and generated not a lot else.
We're not 2-0 down to Bayern or Barcelona and have an away game to get through like City and Arsenal! Their games are write offs, we still have a hope if we play well.

We surely can't play anywhere near as badly as the away game, that was bottom 3 of the season material.
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No you're right..and I do believe we will win the match. but I can't see us winning by three clear goals...
 
At the end of the day Moyes hasn't taken a single step forward, not a single step.

The danger in this is that, by being so phenomenally poor, he could actually improve minimally and still be performing way below the standard of Manchester United... but because people have become so disillusioned with the horror-show thus far, they'd view it as 'good enough', or 'an improvement'.

I believe this is called 'the lowering of expectations'.

It's certainly a very real danger for us as a fanbase right now. We'd already be literally overjoyed to know that we'd finish Top 4 NEXT SEASON.
 
togg said:
One game alone wouldn't change my mind...as much as one game alone didn't change my original support and faith in him. Beat Olympiakos and thrash Liverpool and city......well........
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I feel for me the damage is done, literally, we would need to show that we can put consistent performances together but not only that, show that the manager has an idea for the existing players, that's what has been so disappointing about his tenure so far. He's had no idea how to use some of the bloody good footballers he's had at his disposal and the argument for letting him build his own squad is a huge worry, his management skills are limited to only knowing how to use a certain type of player that he chooses. How do we fit up and coming talents or gems that we unearth into a squad if Moyes can't find a way to adapt styles of play to players that come along only once in a while.
 
Sandikan said:
I know the general mood is sombre and all negative. But we're 2-0 down to Olympiakos, who scored through almost unusual weird deflected goal, and a worldly strike, and generated not a lot else.
We're not 2-0 down to Bayern or Barcelona and have an away game to get through like City and Arsenal! Their games are write offs, we still have a hope if we play well.

We surely can't play anywhere near as badly as the away game, that was bottom 3 of the season material.
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I was saying earlier that Olybiakos lost at home 0-3 to their most hated rivals on Sunday, christ we should be able too, our squad is like 100 times better than theirs in every position but with Moyes I just know we're going to get knocked out.
 
I just noticed this, pitta-ful... :lol:




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Sandikan said:
I know the general mood is sombre and all negative. But we're 2-0 down to Olympiakos, who scored through almost unusual weird deflected goal, and a worldly strike, and generated not a lot else.
We're not 2-0 down to Bayern or Barcelona and have an away game to get through like City and Arsenal! Their games are write offs, we still have a hope if we play well.

We surely can't play anywhere near as badly as the away game, that was bottom 3 of the season material.
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Your right it's not Barca or Bayern it's a dreadful Olympiakos side and we failed to threaten even after going down by 2, had it been a quality side we would have been down and out already, instead we're clinging on by our fingernails to the knockout stages 2nd worst side.

Man United should be taking this tie to Old Trafford and sticking 5 past them in a convincing reaction to a terrible away performance, I doubt anyone is confident of such a display.
 
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