Nevilles "united are a crossing club" and him referencing Juan Mata as perhaps not a untied player, sums up exactly what is wrong...the mentality will probably take 2 or 3 years to change.
Moyes So Far!
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Nevilles "united are a crossing club" and him referencing Juan Mata as perhaps not a untied player, sums up exactly what is wrong...the mentality will probably take 2 or 3 years to change.
I found this very bizarre because I remember him commentating one of our games where he said one of the tenets of the club or more so the Fergie era was to have good possession and ball retention and probe the opponent from different angles. Now he's like on some campaign to spout what the club is/is not about. Bizarre
Well he was there for 11 years so it would have been quite saddening to see him leave regardless. Though I suspect the same fans would hardly miss him now considering the football they're playing now compared to last season.
This. And the sooner people realise it the better.
Also, the sooner people get over the 'great leader' complex with Fergie the better - he retired, and he needs to stop fecking around with the club now. The whole situation is utterly pathetic.
I think this is a tad unfair. You cant lump all these signings together.
Obertan, Bebe, Smalling and Buttner are/were young signings which we made because we thought they had a lot of potential. When you are competing against far richer clubs you need to find an edge and ours has been to buy young players we thought would go on to become top quality, before they became prohibitively expensive. Not dissimilar to what we did with Ronaldo. Unfortunately this strategy is always going to mean you get some duds, not everyone will progress as hoped. For the strategy to work you just need to hit more than you miss, or make sure when you do hit you hit spectacularly. Even within this category there are differences, obviously the whole Bebe thing was surreal and nobody knows what happened there but you have to give SAF the benefit of the doubt and assume he believed he was going to justify that price.
I think these are the ones people should be looking at when it comes to assessing the United strategy in the transfer market. There is a reason we have been doing it this way, whether we should rethink this is another debate entirely, of course there is an argument for implementing a new "galactico" policy of sorts, the question is whether we can afford to go that route and also, of course, whether people want to, there is plenty to be said on both sides of those questions.
I would however agree that you can make a convincing case that Moyes is the managerial equivalent of these signings above, that he is a manager with potential that could be developed in-house, rather than buying the finished article. Obviously you can make the case the other way as well, the comparison is imperfect because one is a manager who has been around for many years and the others are young players with most of their careers ahead of them (or they did when they signed anyway).
For me, the remaining signings in that list are different:
Valencia was fantastic for us for his first couple of seasons, it is easy to be revisionist now. Yes it was a bit of a comedown after Ronaldo but I think SAF was vindicated on the basis of his early form for us.
I never wanted either Young or Owen. Young just wasnt a step up on what we had, at a time we should have been strengthening our first XI, rather than our squad, he was a squad player. For me he is the example that best supports your point. Owen was another squad player, more defensible in some ways because it was cheap and we lost little by doing it, less in others because his injury record always suggested he would struggle to make an impact even as a sub. But it was hardly indicative of our transfer strategy. I would compare it more to the Larsson episode than anything, it was just an opportunistic, short term deal.
And then there is Fellaini. The jury is still out on that one, clearly the majority are pretty underwhelmed with it, but again I dont think it shows a lack of ambition from the club, he spent a lot of money to bring him here. This one was just about supporting the new manager and he was someone Moyes wanted.
SAF was one of the most modern managers out there and one that was most open to change. He would not have lasted for so long if he wasn't.
Martin Ferguson did not do 'the scouting' for United as Samuel suggests. We have a great network. As far as I know, SAF liked taking Martin's opinion on players because he trusted him but the idea that he did the majority of the work is stupid.
There seems to be a lot of revisionism about United's structure, training, squad etc. over the last few months. As if we were some dinosaur club that only SAF was able to run. Truth is SAF institutionalized a lot of modern ideas at the club, from sport science to training, and we usually led the way in England atleast in many areas.
Also the notion that SAF wanted to do everything is stupid as it is a well known fact that he pretty much delegated everything. Infact Moyes seems to be the one that likes to take control of training etc.
There is only one difference between last season and this...
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I get the feeling that the regular media would rather pin the blame on Ferguson than actually admit that the first British manager to get a job at the highest level is completely out of his depth.
Gary Neville needs to realise this club has to move with the times or we are going to become some kind of museum exhibit.
I agree with this, but I would add: WE need to realise that Gary Neville works for Sky Sports, not Man Utd, and his brother is part of the regime we are all desperate to end!
Don't bother looking to G.Nev for insight anymore, cuz you won't get any.
No Gary is far too subjective and the awful thing is that he is making Carragher look the better pundit.
Carragher has a strange view on Moyes; he believes that any other club would have sacked him but because Moyes is British, United need to stick with him.
So we need to stick with a manager who has been shit and lost the dressing room, give him £200m all because he is British.
So we need to stick with a manager who has been shit and lost the dressing room, give him £200m all because he is British.
Carragher is an ex Liverpool player. I am sure that he would want to see Moyes at United for a few years.
Well I'm trying to ignore that he might have any bias as difficult as that might be. It's still a strange view to have.
They've been at it all season. Only now is the tide starting to turn. I like Samuel's work from a writing perspective, but he's had another shocker up there.
@Adebesi. I mentioned Owen, Obertan and Valencia because we had just sold our most important player when they were bought. In that summer of 2009 Robben, Sjneider, Van Der Vaart were unwanted at Real. Eto'o, Henry, and Yaya were no longer part of Guardiola's plans. There were players like Villa, Mata and Silva at debt ridden Valencia. Villareal had Giuseppe Rossi, Cazorla. Owen was finished when we he was signed for free. Valencia was good but not great for 2 seasons then turned to shit. Obertan was an unknown quantity. He was not in the same mould as Rooney and Ronaldo who were highly rated youngsters.
I mentioned Moyes because at Everton he was always praised for being able to finish in the top 6 with limited funds. I'm quite sure that 1 of the reasons he was chosen to succeed Fergie.
Young was bought in 2011 for 20mil. In contrast Mata for example was bought for 23mil. That summer everyone expected a midfielder after our schooling at the hands of Barca + our poor away form despite winning the league. Wesley was available but the club baulked at the fee required which in hindsight would have been a better return than 27mil for Fellaini.
I mentioned Moyes because at Everton he was always praised for being able to finish in the top 6 with limited funds. I'm quite sure that 1 of the reasons he was chosen to succeed Fergie.
Young was bought in 2011 for 20mil. In contrast Mata for example was bought for 23mil. That summer everyone expected a midfielder after our schooling at the hands of Barca + our poor away form despite winning the league. Wesley was available but the club baulked at the fee required which in hindsight would have been a better return than 27mil for Fellaini.
Indeed, I can see the point the article's making, SAF pulled the strings. But the mechanism started from the fact he was a man manager and a master at choosing people who he could trust and delegate to. Not that he did it all, not even that he thought he knew it all - just that he was a leader who knew how to get the best from people.
The idea implicit in this stuff is that Moyes is learning to juggle, rather than failing to deliver the normal duties of first team manager. Well that's a nice thought, it just seems more like an excuse for current failure rather than a pointer to future success. Even if it's true that juggling would be an advantage, the other side of being a manager is knowing how to prioritise and getting the best out of your people is the most basic task of all, especially when you've got deadlines, called football matches, to deal with.
According to legend, a newly arriving Ferguson had to deal with a drinking culture and a lack of ambition in the club. Now Moyes has to deal with the wrong Prozone subscription and a lack of iPads. We've updated our scouting procedures? Great. Next time we get offered a player of Thiago's quality for £20m, maybe we can stick a DVD of him on the big screen.
Did you even read the article you quoted before that rant?
I think it's actually highly critical of both Moyes and Woodward. The former for what he's serving up on the pitch and the latter for his focus on the bottom line, without thinking about consequences for the football team (that and not being able to work his own blackberry...)
It's a fence-sitting piece over all. Talks around the issues going on without either forgiving or damning Moyes for what's happened (although with a tendency for more criticism than praise). The only claim it makes to Moyes in any way having a positive influence on the club is yet another reference to the overhaul of the scouting system. This has been all round the internet for ages, with loads of LOLZ from journalists and fans alike about the idea that all he's done is ordered a load of iPads and white boards. This is, of course, nonsense. You can see why journalists talking about this "transfer bunker" like to refer to iPads and HD screens as symbolic of what is going on but you'd have to be an absolute fecking moron to think that buying a few new gadgets is the extent of the changes taking place.
Hernandez was the only diamond we unearthed in a long time, in terms of "value" players signed for a place in the first team squad. When you've got clubs like Newcastle and Swansea apparently better able to identify the best inexpensive young players on the continent then it's time for a review and update of the scouting system at United. If this is happening then that can only be a good thing.
EDIT: Although, to be fair the (deliberately provocative) title to the article is ridiculous, I agree. Classic Daily Mail.
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I think the phrase "Fergie was the difference between 7th and Champions by 11 points" is pretty forgiving of Moyes.
His treatment by the press isn't exceptional by itself, but by it's comparisson to other managers. No one has ever gotten off this lightly for such a disastrous run. That they're even trying to look for other people to blame (rightly or wrongly) is remarkable by their standards.
His treatment by the press isn't exceptional by itself, but by it's comparisson to other managers. No one has ever gotten off this lightly for such a disastrous run. That they're even trying to look for other people to blame (rightly or wrongly) is remarkable by their standards.
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It's factually correct, though. Almost identical squad, with much worse results compared to the previous season. The main reason for the difference has to be the change in managers (although it does ignore other factors, such as injuries)
The fact that Fergie's been replaced by Moyes goes without saying, surely?
Regardless of what you think of his achievements there, good or bad, I'm talking about the style of play/the change we're expecting from him in about 10 years from now..
I can't be the only one who notices the similarities there?
I did. Did you?
He clearly has a dig at our club structure with comments like our marketing side being 20 years ahead but the footballing side being 20 years behind the times.
Unless he's trying to be tongue in cheek, it's a nonsense idea.
If you stop reading at the title, that would be the impression you got.
When you read the whole piece it's a lot more nuanced. The only support for the "20 years behind the times" idea is the fact that Fergie was such an influential figure, whose departure leaves massive shoes to fill. That's absolutely true. We're not set up as a club to cope well with his departure. If only because it's been almost thirty years since we last dealt with managerial change.
Daily Mail in inflammatory headline shocker.
Exactly, totally agree. We're talking about going from one of the greatest manager's ever , who was absolutely incredible at getting the most out of players.
No unbiased football fan expected us to walk the league by 11 point, in the way we did, and control Real Madrid they way we did.
Fast forward 10 months later, and we've swapped to a manager, who simply isn't as good and doesn't have the same motivational capabilities and drive to push players on the way Ferguson did.
The main difference has to be managers. Injuries have happened like this before, but Ferguson managed them well etc. Ferguson brought this team to another level, which arguably Moyes isn't capable of.
Wow!
And that wasn't 8 months, but 10 years after he took over their team.
EDIT: look at these bits:
And people think another 2 years will solve everything...
I can produce 10 posts on this forum that sheds negative light on Ferguson's tenure (Starkie1 for starters, the tosser). The majority of Everton fans, along with the management, had nothing but good to say about Moyes. Now whether he can take the good work he did at Everton, and apply it here, is another question that has not been answered, yet.
You could even argue that Moyes brings the team down a level, based on Everton and United this season anyway.
Absolutely.
How many points we're worse off as a result of Fergie leaving and how many points dropped as a result of the man chosen to replace him is unknown and up for debate though.
The Samuel article was intriguing until I realised he doesn't actually go into any detail or offer any evidence, even antidotal, as to how we're "twenty years behind" in footballing terms. He just states that Ferguson was in charge of everything on the footballing side, which is true, but he delegated to people who were specialists in the areas he hired them in. It's a rather shite article really, which is a shame, its premise was quite interesting, especially if true, but then I doubt it is. I don't see how you can be successful when you're twenty years out of date, and actually we can see for ourselves how Ferguson adapted and evolved in terms of motivation, rotation, signings, tactics and strategy, so actually it's probably complete nonsense. A nice idea though, being ahead in the commercial aspects but behind in the footballing ones makes good copy.
I'd agree, to a point. We're talking about a team who won the league by 11 points, but against a few opponents who were lacking. Chelsea hadn't the manager they have now, City had Mancini at the helm, Liverpool weren't as good, Arsenal weren't either. Ferguson was the difference and drove on the team to a level that many non United fans didn't think they do.
Put Moyes in that situation last year, and I doubt he'd do half was well.
Well based on the football we wouldn't be doing much better last season under Moyes, only for the fact other teams weren't as strong.
It could well be the way I'm reading it, but to me it's saying (or at least implying) "This squad is a 7th placed squad, any manager that isn't Fergie would struggle to get it any higher"
Yes, you're correct, the difference is the manager, but explaining our failure this year by placing the emphasis on Fergie being even greater rather than Moyes disappointing seems like a cop out. Like you said, it's fence sitting. No ones put out by it.
You can't talk about Moyes without acknowledging who he's replaced.
If Fergie retired at the end of 2011/12, the team would probably be floundering just as badly last season as they are now. The fact that the other big four clubs have strengthened significantly does mean the race for the title/CL football is much more difficult now. That said, I seriously doubt we'd have won our 20th league title if Fergie quit after number 19.
If Fergie retired at the end of 2011/12, the team would probably be floundering just as badly last season as they are now. The fact that the other big four clubs have strengthened significantly does mean the race for the title/CL football is much more difficult now. That said, I seriously doubt we'd have won our 20th league title if Fergie quit after number 19.
Exactly. But Carrick had the season of his life, and was managed/motivated by Ferguson to a very high level. RVP was given license to roam, despite our bad tactics. He was on great form, and Ferguson's management of players is testament to how each played last year.
Basically says what we've been saying all along, Ferguson could rely on his motivation and sheer will to make players play very well. Moyes I'm afraid doesn't have that ability.
With quality of players we have on this squad, even an old fashioned long ball crossing game should have been enough to see off West Brom, Newcastle and other mid table sides. We all expected to be humbled by City and Chelsea, but none of expected us that every club would go into a match with believing they have a great chance if beating us.
The problem with Moyes is that he stripped our players of their confidence to the point where even the basics are now a challenge. It's now just a matter of time before he is sacked...either after Liverpool, in May or in December.
The problem with Moyes is that he stripped our players of their confidence to the point where even the basics are now a challenge. It's now just a matter of time before he is sacked...either after Liverpool, in May or in December.
If Moyes was appointed, yeah.
Yep. You can't just ignore the man that replaced Fergie. I mean if we had a manager who came better prepared (either his own fault or maybe he needed more time) then the transition from Fergie would have been better placed. As many have pointed out it is not as if there weren't holes in the team that a new manager could immediately target on improving and the football itself could have done with a new vision behind it as well to compete with the top clubs in Europe. At the moment we can't compete with the teams below City and Chelsea in the league right now.
This is how read the article.
A cop out from what, though? Criticising Moyes?
He gets (justified) stick a few paragraphs down.
There's a pervasive idea on here that Moyes is getting a free pass from the press. I think some of that is down to a piece like this, which doesn't give any real insights but basically says Fergie's departure has left the club reeling and Moyes and Woodward are having a fecking steep learning curve, which they're not exactly coping with very well. This all seems very fair to me. Don't see why anyone thinks this is giving him an easy ride (stupid headline aside)
Indeed, the question is how much of this drop off was inevitable and how much of it is down to Moyes. Unfortunately it's a very hard one to answer definitively and the only way to know for sure is when Moyes has his own squad, which is inherently risky considering how much money that will take. He's going to be backed so all we can do is hope he's the manager Ferguson thought he was.
This.
A drop off was avoidable with an appointment of a top manager. For me anyway.
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