Moyes So Far!

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Why are people constantly drawing up parallels between Fergie and Moyes to justify his tenure ? They're just fantasies built on quicksand.

Yes, Fergie may not have really taken charge of a mid-table team but he didn't just have to rebuild the team, he had to tear down the foundations and rebuild the club itself. Every manager after Sir Matt had been haunted by the ghost of Busby. Yes, some of players were good but there were major issues of unprofessional behaviour. Fergie had to ingrain the system of player fitness, had to overhaul the scouting system, had to revive the youth academy, overhaul the training facilities at the Cliff, had the ensure expansions of Old Trafford, had to revive the winning mentality and wake a giant from its 2 decade long slumber. The man undertook a herculean task when all his predecessors had failed and took United to even greater heights than Sir Matt. The club was in shambles when he gained control and it was a monumental achievement to get it to this point where it's a global entity.

David Moyes took over the reigning Champions of England. Yes, the squad had its weaknesses but all the other ingredients were in place. We had a magnificent setup, arguably the largest fanbase in the world, world class facilities, some excellent players, a great support system. United is now a well oiled machine compared to the broken down bullock cart it was in 1986. He only had to maintain the standard, maybe change a few players and that was it really. But he has fallen short on all fronts and dragged the club down to his mediocre standards.

Maybe Fergie was not the greatest tactician but he was a born winner. To take Aberdeen and break the Old Firm and defeat Bayern Munich and Real Madrid with a group of no-names was a historic achievement. He had a proven track record of success even when it was not readily evident in his first few years at United. Moyes is a born loser and an inept tactician, he took Everton to mid table and stagnated, never daring to scale greater heights with one of the greatest clubs in English football. He always looks to curtail than to impose. I can understand if we alter our ways against the elite of European football, but fecking Olympiakos ? It's diabolical. Get rid.
 
finneh said:
If you look at the "where we we finish" thread, the majority of people felt our squad was the best in the league after City's. I still feel this is true, especially given the addition of Mata.

We currently have the best centre forward in the League, two of the five best play-makers in the League and the best central midfielder of last season. In addition we have 2 solid experienced defenders in Evans and Vidic and 2 talented younger central defenders in Smalling and Jones. The former 2 players would challenge to get into any top 4 side and the latter 2 would be in a top 4 squad. Rafael would challenge to be in any top 4 squad, he certainly isn't the worst out of our rivals: Sagna, Zabaleta, Rafael, Johnson, Ivanovic. DDG in my opinion would walk into any of our rivals' first teams.

I still maintain our first XI is the second best team in the League:

________DDG
Rafael Vidic Evans Evra
Carrick_Fellaini/Cleverley
Januzaj Rooney Mata
_______RVP

That team has two real weaknesses: the position next to Carrick and left back. But every team in the League has weaknesses, Arsenal/Chelsea have strikers that wouldn't even make our bench. I can't think of a single member of Liverpool's back 5 defender who would make our first team. Man City have the best squad in the League, we all agree, but even they have a dodgy Goalkeeper, dodgy LB and no-one to partner Kompany.

The fact is we can debate about how weak our team is all day long, however Ferguson didn't turn a team full of mediocrity into World beaters on his own. He may have been worth 10 points a season, even 12-13 at a push, but lets not pretend he was worth 25 points and that we'd have been mid table the last decade without him.

The problem is that if Fergie was worth +10, Moyes is worth -20 (net -30). The likes of Mourinho, even if he was 5-10 points worse than Fergie would have us challenging. In fact given how shit everyone has been this season I think Mourinho would be a few points clear with our squad (particularly as he'd have signed someone like Matic over Fellaini).
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Great post.. Spot on.
 
Adebesi said:
I dont necessarily think he will be paid £25m. My guess is he would either just keep collecting his salary as per his entitlement without taking another job (the Di Matteo model) or take a pay off to be done with the whole thing, which would be large but not so large as his full cash entitlement, but would allow him to get another job.

As far as what you are saying goes, Im just not sure about the validity of your assessment of "fairness", which seems to be what your whole theory rests on. Anyway, as you said, neither of us know so there's no point in arguing about it, we'll have to wait and see.
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Well a contract must be fair and not unreasonably one sided by law.

An owner like the Sheikh of Man City requesting his manager to win the league would be one sided in his favour whereas a top four finish could be considered fair (due to the club's recent past performances). Failure to accomplish the goal would scale down the severance package as agreed in the contract.

That's what I mean't by fairness, so to request Dalglish to take a club that finished 7th and achieve a top four finish would be unfair and so it is understandable he would be entitled to a high severance pay with a finish that was basically the same as his predecessor.

For a company to request a builder carry out work in 2 months that could in the court of law be argued to take 3 months would be unreasonable and so couldn't terminate the contract refusing to pay the builder if he failed to complete that work in only 2 months. For them to terminate the contract if the work hadn't been completed after 5 months without pay to the builder would probably be fair.

That's all I mean't by fairness. The lawyers will need to argue what is consdiered or not considered fair in the court of law however I'm sure Moyes and the United Board would agree based on the history of the team's performance achieving a top four finish to be a reasonable request and not unreasonable.

He will probably leave (if he does) in circumstances not unlike Benitez, taking a club that should have finished in the top four to below. It will be mutual consent where he will accept around £6m in severance pay.

Now by law a contract can be terminated for poor performance from what I've read and no severance pay is necessary however companies rarely do this due to the hassle it provides. The other party is very likely to sue and this in turn creates unnecessary litigation and bad publicity, a lot of time in court where the company must prove such a termination to be lawfully just and also the risk of losing and so paying a very high settlement. For this reason it's usually in a company's best interest to negotiate a severance package but in that agreement insert a clause where the other party must leave quietly.
 
Worst part about all of this is that although sane United fans want Dr Incompetent gone, our club will sadly stick with him. I have very little hope in the club getting rid of him sooner rather than later especially with SAF continuing to be a big part of the senior management of the club.
 
finneh said:
If you look at the "where we we finish" thread, the majority of people felt our squad was the best in the league after City's. I still feel this is true, especially given the addition of Mata.

We currently have the best centre forward in the League, two of the five best play-makers in the League and the best central midfielder of last season. In addition we have 2 solid experienced defenders in Evans and Vidic and 2 talented younger central defenders in Smalling and Jones. The former 2 players would challenge to get into any top 4 side and the latter 2 would be in a top 4 squad. Rafael would challenge to be in any top 4 squad, he certainly isn't the worst out of our rivals: Sagna, Zabaleta, Rafael, Johnson, Ivanovic. DDG in my opinion would walk into any of our rivals' first teams.

I still maintain our first XI is the second best team in the League:

________DDG
Rafael Vidic Evans Evra
Carrick_Fellaini/Cleverley
Januzaj Rooney Mata
_______RVP

That team has two real weaknesses: the position next to Carrick and left back. But every team in the League has weaknesses, Arsenal/Chelsea have strikers that wouldn't even make our bench. I can't think of a single member of Liverpool's back 5 defender who would make our first team. Man City have the best squad in the League, we all agree, but even they have a dodgy Goalkeeper, dodgy LB and no-one to partner Kompany.

The fact is we can debate about how weak our team is all day long, however Ferguson didn't turn a team full of mediocrity into World beaters on his own. He may have been worth 10 points a season, even 12-13 at a push, but lets not pretend he was worth 25 points and that we'd have been mid table the last decade without him.

The problem is that if Fergie was worth +10, Moyes is worth -20 (net -30). The likes of Mourinho, even if he was 5-10 points worse than Fergie would have us challenging. In fact given how shit everyone has been this season I think Mourinho would be a few points clear with our squad (particularly as he'd have signed someone like Matic over Fellaini).
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Thumbs up!
 
Ok so after we settled a bit, let me continue what I was talking about after the Palace game.

Some here argued that there was some improvement in that game, and we played "different", we "controlled the ball". In my opinion it wasn't the case, I said we were lucky to get the penalty, as we didn't look like scoring before that, and then that goal changed the game in our favour, and changed the opinions of the people about our performance retrospectively.

I also thought it was just a matter of a coin flip really. We didn't win the Palace game because we were better, but because we got the first break of the game, basically by luck. I also said, on another day it could very well be the other team who gets that break, and we'll end up on the losing side, and people will say it was an awful performance.

Now, I think we all saw that in the Olympiacos game. We lost the game, and everybody agrees that it was an awful performance, even though we did have more than 60% possession before Olympiacos' first goal. However, as usual, we were toothless and clueless when the score was 0-0, and we didn't get the lucky break we needed this time.
 
Anyone read Stuart Mathieson's article on MEN?

Fair to say he's sticking boot in....bad signs for Moyes when the local papers are turning against you.
 
Never mind that sh*t - what about the sidebar headline from Stockport: 'Rabbit rescued from chimney after spending three days stuck'?
 
RedRover said:
The club left him with a squad with a number of players, key players last year in Vidic and Ferdinand, with 12 months left on their deal.

Evra, I think, has two years left as did Carrick before he signed. He has also had to deal with the Rooney fall out this year.

They also failed to bring in the players he identified, or act quickly enough to get other targets when they didn't come off leading to an embarrassing and frankly shambolic summer transfer window.

He was able to bring his own staff in - but I suspect most other managers would want to do the same.

And why wouldn't you want Moyes, or any manager for that matter to identify his own transfer targets? Who picks the players if he doesn't?
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Two questions:

1. Still doesn't explain why we are in 7th though. Unless you think that that's where our team's worth.
2. In the future, team with sugar daddies will always have more money and better players. Does it mean that Moyes will always be excused on not winning any league title?
 
finneh said:
If you look at the "where we we finish" thread, the majority of people felt our squad was the best in the league after City's. I still feel this is true, especially given the addition of Mata.

We currently have the best centre forward in the League, two of the five best play-makers in the League and the best central midfielder of last season. In addition we have 2 solid experienced defenders in Evans and Vidic and 2 talented younger central defenders in Smalling and Jones. The former 2 players would challenge to get into any top 4 side and the latter 2 would be in a top 4 squad. Rafael would challenge to be in any top 4 squad, he certainly isn't the worst out of our rivals: Sagna, Zabaleta, Rafael, Johnson, Ivanovic. DDG in my opinion would walk into any of our rivals' first teams.

I still maintain our first XI is the second best team in the League:

________DDG
Rafael Vidic Evans Evra
Carrick_Fellaini/Cleverley
Januzaj Rooney Mata
_______RVP

That team has two real weaknesses: the position next to Carrick and left back. But every team in the League has weaknesses, Arsenal/Chelsea have strikers that wouldn't even make our bench. I can't think of a single member of Liverpool's back 5 defender who would make our first team. Man City have the best squad in the League, we all agree, but even they have a dodgy Goalkeeper, dodgy LB and no-one to partner Kompany.

The fact is we can debate about how weak our team is all day long, however Ferguson didn't turn a team full of mediocrity into World beaters on his own. He may have been worth 10 points a season, even 12-13 at a push, but lets not pretend he was worth 25 points and that we'd have been mid table the last decade without him.

The problem is that if Fergie was worth +10, Moyes is worth -20 (net -30). The likes of Mourinho, even if he was 5-10 points worse than Fergie would have us challenging. In fact given how shit everyone has been this season I think Mourinho would be a few points clear with our squad (particularly as he'd have signed someone like Matic over Fellaini).
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Good post.
 
Matheison has hardly 'stuck the boot in'. He even says that Moyes deserves another transfer window to build his own side.
 
Ole's_toe_poke said:
Matheison has hardly 'stuck the boot in'. He even says that Moyes deserves another transfer window to build his own side.
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That's as strong as the locals will go to be fair.

Anyway, he won't get another transfer window. It's inevitable...might not be in the next few days but he will lose against city and pool at OT. That will be the straw that breaks the camels back.

Sorry to admit it but we all know it.
 
There is the wider problem with investment in the team. United may be champions of England, still in the Champions League and a club in vibrant commercial good health, but they have been heavily out-recruited by their rivals in the Premier League and abroad. Their last real gung-ho summer of spending was seven years ago, since when what has gone out of the club every year has invariably looked better than what has come in.
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- From The Guardian.

A very true point imo. We've a poor squad because for 7 years we have been underwhelming in the transfer market.

Whoever was in charge this season we would have done poorly, though surely not as bad as this. We'd probably be battling for fourth.

That said, someone like Mourinho would have got quality recruits in in the summer.
 
A quality CM and a LB in the summer while shipping out Valencia or Young would have been some way to doing a rebuild. Add a great manager and the task in the summer coming wouldn't be looking so daunting. Get another winger and a next CM along with maybe a CB and the rebuild is almost done.
 
KingMinger22 said:
- From The Guardian.

A very true point imo. We've a poor squad because for 7 years we have been underwhelming in the transfer market.

Whoever was in charge this season we would have done poorly, though surely not as bad as this. We'd probably be battling for fourth.

That said, someone like Mourinho would have got quality recruits in in the summer.
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We won the league by 11 points last year. Ferguson was unlucky to lose out v Madrid. And moreover Ferguson thought he left a good blend of youth and experience for the new manager. His big miscalculation was thinking Moyes was a younger version of himself. David Moyes is no Alex Ferguson. He has to go.
 
KingMinger22 said:
- From The Guardian.

A very true point imo. We've a poor squad because for 7 years we have been underwhelming in the transfer market.

Whoever was in charge this season we would have done poorly, though surely not as bad as this. We'd probably be battling for fourth.

That said, someone like Mourinho would have got quality recruits in in the summer.
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So have the rest of the PL by the looks of it.
 
smallred said:
interesting stat for you - if you split the 27 PL games this season in terms of crosses oer game to < 22 and > 22 you have the following.

16 games with > 22 crosses (average 34 per game) = 5 wins, 3 draws and 8 defeats (18 points).
11 games with < 22 crosses (average 18 per game) = 8 wins, 3 draws and 0 defeats (27 points.)

its very clear that we struggle when we focus on width, our wide players just are not good enough.
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Stats can be deceiving. Unless you dig deeper to find out when the crosses are being made, you could turn those stats on their heads. For example, our crosses in the first bullet point reflect crosses as a desperation move. In other words, we start crossing as a last resort when we fail to break teams down as the games progress.
 
The Glazers have backed David Moyes to rebuild ageing United
The manager's high-tech scouting set-up with its extensive list of possible transfer targets has impressed the owners

The support Moyes enjoys from the Glazers is based on the depth and detail with which he has restructured the club. Moyes has reconfigured United's scouting system, with the 50-year-old creating a dedicated nerve-centre at Carrington that resembles the "bunker" from which he plotted player acquisition at Everton when manager.

Ferguson's was a more intuitive approach that centred on tapping into the knowledge of his chief scout, Jim Lawlor, rather than having detailed files drawn up on players.

Moyes has installed a bespoke facility that houses whiteboards, computers, high-definition screens, iPads and other state-of-the-art digital technology at United's training ground. This allows the manager easy access to data on players of all positions, ages and career trajectory from around the world, while also maintaining immediate contact with a global network of scouts.
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http://www.theguardian.com/football...s-glazer-rebuild-manchester-united?CMP=twt_gu
 
Aye coz Fergie's staff were all using typewriters and Betamax players before high-tech Moyes came along.
 
Moriarty said:
As soon as I got to the "lessons have been learned" bit I stopped. As soon as I hear that, I know it's bollocks. It's the standard response given when a cock-up has been exposed.
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It's really a daft thing to say isn't it ? We of all clubs should have known how critical it is to replace a long-serving manager with the right man. This is exactly like Sir Matt's retirement and it cost us 25 years of misery. Should've gotten Jock Stein back then. Under-qualified clowns have been chosen to replace the greatest managers of all time.
 
Just been looking back through the stats between this year and last and it really does show what difference RvP being out has made, he's scoring at a similar rate oddly enough so you have to wonder. Rooney is due for on par or above. Welbeck has picked up from Hernandez.

Interestingly enough we're about 10 goals short from our defenders this season, difference in corners perhaps.

Another odd stat is that our centre mids have actually had more shots this season than last.
 
Could Moyes benefit from bringing someone in to coach the team, bring Phelan back or Rene? I know he likes to do it himself but he's obviously a bag of wank at it.

Or is he fuccked? A and just needs to go?
 
Mauzindark said:
It's really a daft thing to say isn't it ? We of all clubs should have known how critical it is to replace a long-serving manager with the right man. This is exactly like Sir Matt's retirement and it cost us 25 years of misery. Should've gotten Jock Stein back then. Under-qualified clowns have been chosen to replace the greatest managers of all time.
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Stein would have been immense. Thing is, he would not have put up with Busby keeping an office at the club. The scousers encountered similar problems when Shankly retired. Apparently, Bill had to be asked to stay away from Liverpool's training sessions first by Bob Paisley and then by the chairman. That must have been a bloody hard thing to do for Paisley but Liverpool made the decision and stuck by it. I wonder if the shambles surrounding Busby's retirement played any part in their thinking?
 
MoBeats said:
Could Moyes benefit from bringing someone in to coach the team, bring Phelan back or Rene? I know he likes to do it himself but he's obviously a bag of wank at it.

Or is he fuccked? A and just needs to go?
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I really don't see how he is going to turn it around, I think he's bolloxed. He seems intent on sticking to his guns with regards tactics. His philosophy is cemented. Can't teach an old dog new tricks.
 
MoBeats said:
Could Moyes benefit from bringing someone in to coach the team, bring Phelan back or Rene? I know he likes to do it himself but he's obviously a bag of wank at it.

Or is he fuccked? A and just needs to go?
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If the brand of football we play is what Moyes wants, what would a new super coach add? He's still be coaching Moyes's football.
 
MoBeats said:
Could Moyes benefit from bringing someone in to coach the team, bring Phelan back or Rene? I know he likes to do it himself but he's obviously a bag of wank at it.

Or is he fuccked? A and just needs to go?
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Moyes won't get rid of his mates and bring Fergie's old backroom staff back. He's determined to let Round and Neville do a bit of on-the-job training with United until they become proper coaches.
 
But they don't look like they're doing anything, with the exception of pip, the rest just sit around like they're watching the telly.
 
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