Do you really think SAF would have anointed someone who he felt scored badly on his own checklist for important managerial attributes? Or do you think he was simply duped by this fraud?
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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Just noticed that.Hold onto your horses. The Moyes' lovers will be here arguing Moyes has won the community shield.
He awarded that trophy to Ferguson.
Fergie made a huge mistake. I'm sure he knows it too.
I don't think we will ever reach top 4 with Moyes in charge. And yes Martinez managed to do what Moyes never did, beat United at Old Trafford an he did that after Moyes had weakened his ex Everton side by buying their best player. And this is Martinez's first few months in charge and he has completely changed the way Everton play given them a different identity in just a few months unlike Moyes.
If it's genuine. I'm pretty sure that wasn't on the screen when I was watching it last night.
I didn't see it on TV, was watching it through a river, do can't say for definite.
I'm sure it is genuine though.
Genuinely don't recall it. It comes as a surprise given the lack of balls he has in these situations.
So, duped by the fraud. Arguably leaving him with big red marks for points 3, 4 and 7 on the Good Management Checklist.
Im not saying SAF definitely didnt make a mistake BTW. Im talking about Moyes as Everton manager here. I think he did a good job and I think its a shame people are trying to rewrite history because of what is happening now. If he isnt good enough to manage us that is one thing, but he was good enough for them. If Martinez equals his feat of 4th for them any time soon Ill be pretty surprised. I rather expect that if he is there for 3 years a trend will emerge that wont compare favourably. Though I suspect he wont stay there for 3 years.
Considering that they are in a similar transition to us, he is doing well (well, the transition excuse can be used also for other managers). What Martinez is doing is like Moyes coming here, getting as much points as SAF in his best season (maybe a bit more) and playing better than we ever did under SAF.
People who want Martinez to fail are just bitter that Everton has a better manager than us and have convinced themselves that Moyes was great there. He never was. He did a very good job on his first 5 years but that is it. Great managers are the likes of Klopp, Simeone, Pellegrini who in similar finances to Moyes did so much better. Also, the complains from Everton fans didn't start when Moyes left them. They were complaining for years. Just go to Everton thread from a few years ago and see what SilentWitness thought about Moyes.
United fans were the only fans in the world who rated Moyes so highly. And that was based mostly because him staying for so long on a team in some ways reminded us of SAF. But unfortunately, except the nationality, that is the only other thing they have in common.
I agree he perfomed well at Everton and deserved all the plaudits he received. His performance here deserves the sack.
@Adebesi, I just posted An Open Letter to David Moyes from an Everton fan last year. That, and the comments that follow contradict your theory that he did a good job there. Regardless, a "good job at Everton" should not equate to getting the job at United, and considering how he's pissing it so far, he should be sacked.
Exactly. Giving him £100 million or whatever the war-chest is to build his own team is seriously dangerous. He's already panic bought Fellaini who seems to be a crock all of a sudden and Mata for £37 million, one of the best attacking midfielders in the league, and seems intent on sticking him on the wing for some unknown reason. Giving Moyes loads of money isn't going to change his cowardly footballing philosophy.
I'm praying the Glazers see sense and sack him, regardless of what Fergie says or wants.
Yes I saw that letter several days ago. To be fair I dont think it contradicts anything, it says there were fans who were pissed off but every club has that, even ours when SAF was here. Fewer Ill grant you, but there were plenty of grumbles about the quality of the football, the insane substitutions etc. I am measuring good management here by league table finishes, Im not interested in whinging fans as proof of anything. Ill grant you Martinez plays more attractive football than Moyes, nobody is refuting that point I dont think.
As for a "good job at Everton" not equating to being right for United, Im pretty sure I have never once said otherwise for that either, and certainly not in this conversation. Ive been talking specifically about his time at Everton. What @Revan says a couple of posts up about people who are bitter, I dont think applies to me at all, I think it is wrong. I simply dont like the fact that some guy who got his last team relegated is suddenly being heralded as a managerial genius just because he plays nice passing football, there is an element of bitterness in the sense of wanting him to do (relatively) badly there, just so people (perhaps) give Moyes a bit more credit for what he did there. I think he deserves that. But it has nothing to do with Moyes at United, I didnt actually want him here as I said in any thread I posted in about who our next manager should be before his appointment. And I dont think he is doing well here at all, I have eyes in my head. I think he should be given time, that's not quite the same thing.
So would you trust DM with the rebuilding of the team/squad?
Given recent results and performances, that was a good point for him yesterday.
Nothing wrong with 4-4-2. A team with a front four out of Rooney, Mata, RVP, Nani, Januzaj, Welbeck and Kagawa interchanging and linking up with the fullbacks and the CMs trading places supporting the attacks can produce good football. Obviously neither CM can be Jones.
There's also the growing myth that Everton played hideous, route one hoof-ball last season when in fact they were capable of playing some very fluid stuff. Finally getting the striker they could never afford has made a huge difference, as has the addition of Gareth Barry on loan, allowing them to invest all the Fellaini money with a replacement that cost nothing up front. Martinez does deserve credit for building on the solid foundation he inherited but there's a lot of revisionism going on about Everton under Moyes.
If I was Malcolm Glazer:
1) I wouldnt have appointed him in the first place.
2) If SAF had talked me into it I would probably give him more time because.... oh do I really have to type all this out again? If you really care what I think, which you probably dont, have a look at one of my umpteen posts on this subject.
BUT, I would hate to be Glazer because:
1) I wouldnt want the responsibility of taking that decision because, quite honestly, I do see the POV of fans who want him gone ASAP, if not yesterday.
2) He looks like a leprechaun.
3) His sons look like leprechauns.
The board/owners need to tell him now - you know what, screw working with how things worked before, lets see you get your current squad playing in the manner you want them for the future. It's not about getting result but for us and the world to see the vision you have for this team. From now till the end of the season with the few games left, go prove to us you can get your current squad, of very high quality players, buying into the system you have in mind. If you can do that then we'll fund the players you want to take it further.
If every tom dick and harry manager that comes in and gets teams playing in their vision with inferior players within a game or two, surely Moyes can do it with our squad. Obviously it depends on if what we've seen from the team so far is not really his vision and he has so far been just trying to get them playing how they've played for the most part over the last few seasons and to just get the results.
If every tom dick and harry manager that comes in and gets teams playing in their vision with inferior players within a game or two, surely Moyes can do it with our squad. Obviously it depends on if what we've seen from the team so far is not really his vision and he has so far been just trying to get them playing how they've played for the most part over the last few seasons and to just get the results.
Agreed and the bolded part is especially important to me. Clearly the Glazers resemble Irish icons and given that around ... 98% of the 500m Worldwide Utd supporters are Irish (or thereabouts, I'm no Math expert), he clearly knew our fanbase when buying the club and that says it all for how great a man he is.
Moyes had ten years to get a striker for them yet failed to do so. Am always surprised why martinez getting lukaku on loan is seemed as such a negative.
Some bloody leprechaun - his lucky charms aren't working.
Used his entire pot of gold on Mata mate
It's not a negative. Martinez still had to give the deal the go a ahead. Be honest, though, when was the last time a striker of that quality was punted round on loan?
I actually think one of the reasons Mourinho let him go to a club like Everton was because he thought it would give them a better chance of nicking points off his rivals. Devious as feck but not a bad strategy and certainly original. So far, so good.
Mame Biram Diouf?
This is the main reason people are loving Martinez and comparing him to Moyes. Can count on one hand the amount of players who've been at Man Utd longer than Moyes was at Everton. Moyes left his mark on Everton just like Fergie did here. The squads were used to this being the way. Moyes comes in and changes nothing and gets the excuse that it's hard to change things after a manager's been at a club for 20+years when Martinez took Moyes' old job and has changed things and has them still up there with the majority of Moyes' players.
Other than Serie A where it is more common, the only one that I think is remotely similar might be Jo from man city to everton. Although someone will probably find a better example.
Yeah, mou. said that as well and I think in the long term this season will help lukaku way more then if he had been on the fringes of the chelsea squad. Not you in particular, but some have really been using the loans to beat martinez success. He trusted delofeu(sp?) and lukaku and made them part of his first team, he should get credit for that.
I agree to an extent and certainly finances played a big part but aside from short spurts (arf arf) from Jelavic and Yakubu, he never seemed to be able to find a striker who could score goals consistently. In fact I think it'd be fair to say that a lot of the strikers he favoured were hard working types. I think it'd be generous in the extreme to say that a good manager couldn't have found one good, consistent option in that time. To my mind that was always a failing of his, but then we know only too well that good managers can still have their blind spots.
It's not really the same thing though, is it? Fergie was someone who almost guaranteed medals, season after season. When he left there was bound to be doubts creeping in about whether this would continue. With Moyes in charge they'd won feck all. Even if the reason for this was a lack of investment (which is a reasonable explanation, when you look at their finances) it's human nature that the players might think a fresh approach could give them a lift. This fresh approach would have been the last thing United players under Fergie were hoping for.
Agree with that. I was just making the point that a lot of elements fell into place to help him make a good start in his new job. When the opposite happened to Moyes.
All of which meant the momentum of the teams they took over went in opposite directions. Lukaku being available was just one piece in the puzzle.
Teams with lower budgets than Everton have won trophies.
You're right it's not a 100% comparison. But it's a still worthy comparison with all the similarities attached.
A fresh approach was needed here though. Moyes doesn't seem a big enough personality or respected enough to have been able to impose that however. Once it was a positive change with more emphasis on dominating the opposition I'm sure the players would have taken to it. Footballers are people. Playing attacking, entertaining football is fun. Ergo, most footballers will like a change that produces fun. There might have been a bit of inconsistency while bedding in the style but a strong enough manager wouldn't care that he's replacing Ferguson or that he's coming into a team where the manager just won the title. He'd make the players invested in the new approach.
Did Moyes make wholesale changes at Everton?
How many players has Martinez brought in to Everton? Off the top of my head..
Barry
Deulofeu
Lukaku
Kone
Monaco striker
Barkley has broken into the first team
McCarthy
McGeady
Anyone else?
Barry
Deulofeu
Lukaku
Kone
Monaco striker
Barkley has broken into the first team
McCarthy
McGeady
Anyone else?
See, I agree with that. For all the thousands of words I type on here defending Moyes, I never thought he was the best man for the job. My biggest worry was what you point out. We needed someone who could inspire confidence immediately with his cv and status in the game. Otherwise, we risk seeing what happened this season. A massive loss of confidence from players shitting themselves about life without Fergie.
The thing is, he's here now. He's a better manager than a lot of people give him credit for and turning round the players (and fans) preconceived notions will take a bit of time. I still think/hope this is possible. Partly because I did think he was an excellent manager at Everton and partly because I'm willing to have some faith in Fergie's judgement. That's it really. I do understand the doubts. Just think people are not being open-minded enough as a result.
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