Moyes So Far!

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Tomalonge said:
Why?

1. Because it gives him time to build a squad. Only two of the current players are his so 95% of the squad are absolutely not his fault.
2. Because it still could be a case of bad form instead of bad philosophy.
3. Because the people who know a lot about football in the club are still backing him.
4. Because we've spent the last 10 years laughing at the merry-go-round clubs.
5. Because he's not gotten rid of the deadwood yet.
6. Because I believe it's the right course of action.
7. Because he's not the only change, could be the backroom staff.
8. Because of the unpredictability of football, this could be the blip at the start of a great career (Not looking likely to be fair, but I've seen Greece win the fecking Euro's.)
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1. Considering the absolute sack of shit we've seen so far, do you feel comfortable with letting him build a squad? Particularly after signing Mata and saying his plan was to "try him out in a few different positions", i.e. he has absolutely no plan at all.

2. He has little philosophy. The little he has is so staggeringly hurtful to good players that I'm actually kind of relieved.

3. People at the club may know a lot about football, but that does very little to suggest they know a lot about what makes others good managers. At the end of the day, it's Ferguson's appointment, a man that, whilst a great manager himself, used to regularly endorse wrong managers for jobs (http://www.theguardian.com/football/2011/jun/17/alex-mcleish-aston-villa-alex-ferguson). Everyone apart from Ferguson is a part of the "give managers time" philosophy, rather than staunch Moyes advocates as far as I can make out.

4. We have. Did we laugh at Liverpool sacking Hodgson? Bayern sacking Klinsmann? Southampton sacking Adkins? (admittedly did seem harsh at the time) Chelsea sacking Grant or di Matteo? Just because our fanbase was smug about giving managers time because we did it to Ferguson and it turned out well does not mean it's a philosophy which you should do without question.

5. Again, he's shown so little so far that he can manage even the very good players of the squad, so do you feel comfortable with letting him build a squad? Particularly given the hundreds of millions it's likely to take, which can't be spent again if he fecks it up.

6. Alright.

7. The backroom staff which he brought with him to fairly widespread derision after sacking half of the previous staff who had much higher reputations? Wouldn't exactly speak volumes for Moyes even if they were the problem.

8. Football is more predictable than people would have you believe. Greece won the Euros, but Spain have won the last three major championships.
 
Ringo 07 said:
It's still very doubtful if Moyes can land any of his major targets over the summer....Mata was a god signing but...Is Kroos and Gundogan really gonna go to a team that has no champions league football and that plays 19th centruy football when otherteams like Chelsea, Real, PSG, and Man City will probably be bidding for these players too
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Absolutely not. I don't trust to give him any more to invest, when we haven't even seen any change in what kind of football we play. It's worse than static zombie football, and if he can't at least make simple changes to make us player better football(even slightly), how can we trust him to improve tactically with more investment? If he can't operate an old worn out Porsche, how can he operate a brand new one?
 
B20 said:
What was he saying on twitter?

The way he publically questioned Moyes' selection policy back in december, I've thought it fairly obvious that Ferdinand is one of those senior players who liked it just fine the way things used to be and doesn't care for how Moyes is doing things. He checked out in the summer basically.

If I were to speculate on the senior players not giving everything for the new manager, it'd be a lot to be honest. I'd wager Vidic, Evra, Carrick and Van Persie would all be moaning at the dinner table about him.
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It seems similar to the Terry led Chelsea dissent against Benitez (or another manager, don't quite recall). These feckers should realize that they have a moral duty to play to their potential, given from whose pockets their wages come from. Really disheartening.
 
It's not just about results though, it's also about the football we are playing. We should know well that this team is capable of a better brand of football yet all we've been served is this pile of crap. How can you be sure that he'll come good if given time when he hasn't done a thing that points that way?

He could have all the time in the world if we were at least trying to play decent football. We're not, it's been simply atrocious since he took over with not even a remote sign of improvement. If anything we've been far more clueless since the turn of the year.
 
KiD CaNtO said:
Firstly, you've absolutely noway of knowing Moyes will be fine. In fact, if Moyes is to be fine it's gonna take a massive change in tactics, performance and luck.

Secondly, I don't think anyone thinks Moyes is a bad manager. The fact is he is a good manager. But that's the issue, he's exactly that. The biggest job in British football should not have gone to a good manager. Big Sam is a good manager. Tony Pulis is a good manager. He is out of his depth and he has us sinking, rapidly. The job should have gone to a great manager, a positive tactician with charisma.

Managers who are world class manage top clubs all the time. Madrid only line up world class managers. City and Chelsea go for European standard managers. We haven't and it's showed.
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Good post, we're just as high profile and Real, Chelsea,Barca,Bayern etc. Why should we have to choose from a lower tier of manager? For stability? Stability is one thing, but being stable mid table is a whole other reality that this club could do without.
 
Feeky Magee said:
1. Considering the absolute sack of shit we've seen so far, do you feel comfortable with letting him build a squad? Particularly after signing Mata and saying his plan was to "try him out in a few different positions", i.e. he has absolutely no plan at all.

2. He has little philosophy. The little he has is so staggeringly hurtful to good players that I'm actually kind of relieved.

3. People at the club may know a lot about football, but that does very little to suggest they know a lot about what makes others good managers. At the end of the day, it's Ferguson's appointment, a man that, whilst a great manager himself, used to regularly endorse wrong managers for jobs (http://www.theguardian.com/football/2011/jun/17/alex-mcleish-aston-villa-alex-ferguson). Everyone apart from Ferguson is a part of the "give managers time" philosophy, rather than staunch Moyes advocates as far as I can make out.

4. We have. Did we laugh at Liverpool sacking Hodgson? Bayern sacking Klinsmann? Southampton sacking Adkins? (admittedly did seem harsh at the time) Chelsea sacking Grant or di Matteo? Just because our fanbase was smug about giving managers time because we did it to Ferguson and it turned out well does not mean it's a philosophy which you should do without question.

5. Again, he's shown so little so far that he can manage even the very good players of the squad, so do you feel comfortable with letting him build a squad? Particularly given the hundreds of millions it's likely to take, which can't be spent again if he fcuks it up.

6. Alright.

7. The backroom staff which he brought with him to fairly widespread derision after sacking half of the previous staff who had much higher reputations? Wouldn't exactly speak volumes for Moyes even if they were the problem.

8. Football is more predictable than people would have you believe. Greece won the Euros, but Spain have won the last three major championships.
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1. Yes, I do, when he's built his squad then he's completely open to judgement/being sacked too. 12 months from now ask me the same question and believe me the answer will be different, either way.
2. I don't know how to answer that.
3. Or that really.
4. Fair enough, that's your view and I can see why. I'd be lying if I said I shared it though.
5. See #1
6. :)
7. Did he sack them? I know he offered Rene a position but he wanted to go into management. The rest I believe decided to leave themselves, but I'm not sure about it.
8. You can predict anything in football, but the chances of being right 100% of the time are non-existant. There's too many variables in football and if everyone knew what was going to happen what would be the point in playing the game?
 
Sarni said:
It's insane to suggest that a manager should not be judged until he builds his own squad. If he's not capable of getting the best out of players how can you possibly let him overhaul the team? What if he fails then, you're left with a squad that isn't good enough and employ a manager who will spend another £200m to overhaul the squad to make it his? And then again and again? Is this the United way?
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Its a mental suggestion. To say that every manager should only be judged when he's got his own players in his ridiculous specially if you consider the talent we have at the club.

Thankfully, Moyes seems to have learnt his lesson from the Fellaini transfer and is now targeting only the top players. His incompetence so far might force the Glazers to spend in the summer and as long as he gets top players in, even if he's sacked, the next manager will have good players to work with. Contrary to what others might believe, there's no way we're going either extreme when it comes to him. He's here atleast till the mid of next season and nothing more than 2 full failed seasons. He'l either need to deliver or will be shown the door. The United way etc is great but the Glazers are businessmen.
 
It's pretty obvious Rio doesn't fancy Moyes anyway. As petulant as he's been, it is alarming that a senior figure and one time captain does not rate our manager.
 
@Tomalonge You actually believe every manager should be given the chance to buy his own players and build a squad before being judged? So, we wait till he's spent say 150mil to buy 7-8 of his own players and only then can we start judging him? Also, we're to totally ignore the fact that he already has attacking talent like RVP, Rooney, Mata, Januzaj etc at his disposal, players that most managers would give their right nut for?
 
How's that tweet related to Moyes? He's simply speculating on the next manager to be sacked. Reading too much into it.
 
Varun_Utd said:
How's that tweet related to Moyes? He's simply speculating on the next manager to be sacked. Reading too much into it.
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Exactly, but it's going to spinned by the media, and some will read into it.
And as KC said, it's pretty obvious who the majority would say, being that the majority of his followers are United fans, and a large portion of them are unhappy with his performances.

Rio's leaving it open purposely, but knows what it'll return.
 
KiD CaNtO said:
It's pretty obvious Rio doesn't fancy Moyes anyway. As petulant as he's been, it is alarming that a senior figure and one time captain does not rate our manager.
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After 24 games at United no one now rates Moyes either...
 
KiD CaNtO said:
It's fairly obvious he knew the majority vote would be Moyes.
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Yes but how does it mean that he doesnt rate Moyes?

He's being a bit thick by needlessly getting twitter attention on Moyes but still feel people are reading too much into it.

That said, he's a goner in the summer, no 2 ways about it. Fat lucrative contract in the MLS I reckon.
 
Varun_Utd said:
@Tomalonge You actually believe every manager should be given the chance to buy his own players and build a squad before being judged? So, we wait till he's spent say 150mil to buy 7-8 of his own players and only then can we start judging him? Also, we're to totally ignore the fact that he already has attacking talent like RVP, Rooney, Mata, Januzaj etc at his disposal, players that most managers would give their right nut for?
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Yes, I truly believe that. Yes we wait until then. No we keep the talent and appreciate where it came from. I'd like to point out that from that list of 4 you've picked a Moyes signing and someone Moyes gave a chance to.

The two seasons before Moyes' arrival was full of shit on a stick football too. Those former two of those players you mentioned dragged us through the season and elevated our position to above, in my opinion, what it should have been. It's not like we've spent the last 5 years brutally tearing teams apart, we've not been playing the best football for a while now and the squad has been in need of improving for about 2-3 years now. DM has at least tried to address the midfield with a signing, albeit maybe not the right one, but time will tell on that too.
 
smallred said:
of course its the managers fault, the team is not set up to play good football. its hit and hope rubbish and with rooney forced to play CM, with flecher sitting on the bench and an inept Danny Welbeck on instead (who also only completed one pass), there is the reason.

RVP only completed 7 passes in the entire game. that is shocking...call valencia, young, welbeck and all these poor if you want, but all our top class players like DDG, Rio, Vidic, Carrick, RVP, Evra seem to be really struggling under Moyes also. the drop in performances compared to last season for those 6, is astounding.
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Im watching the game again and its 7 minutes in and RVP has completed 3 passes so far. If that stat is right for the next 83 minutes he will have completed only 4 passes....
4th on the 12th minute
5th on 31 minutes
6th pass 32 minutes to Rooney
7th pass to Rooney 1st half injury time.

18th minute, Rooney completes a pass to RVP.
31 minutes RVP completes a pass to Rooney.
 
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KiD CaNtO said:
It's pretty obvious Rio doesn't fancy Moyes anyway. As petulant as he's been, it is alarming that a senior figure and one time captain does not rate our manager.
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Well its not unreasonable if the entire squad doesnt rate Moyes. However, to publicly act the prick is not right. But its not all that shocking, half the footballers these days have zero morals.
 
Tomalonge said:
Yes, I truly believe that. Yes we wait until then. No we keep the talent.

The two seasons before Moyes' arrival was full of shit on a stick football too. Those former two of those players you mentioned dragged us through the season and elevated our position to what it should have been. It's not like we've spent the last 5 years brutally tearing teams apart, we've not been playing the best football for a while now and the squad has been in need of improving for about 2-3 years now. DM has at least tried to address the midfield with a signing, albeit maybe not the right one, but time will tell on that too.
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I simply cannot get my hand around that. You see how badly the 100mil thrown away by Dalglish affected Pool? It'l be even worse for us as players sign for us on top wages and long contracts. Its entirely another thing that Moyes seems to target the top players anyways so it shouldnt harm us but the theory is mental.

If a manager cannot get attacking players like RVP, Rooney, Mata, Januzaj etc to play good football, I wouldnt say he deserves cash to spend and get more in before he can be judged. We're talking about 3 absolutely world class players and a superb talent.

And Yes, I agree we havent been playing great football for a while now. That has been one of the biggest complains about SAF but it still wasnt as bad as it is now. Most importantly, the results meant it got overlooked. It'd be the same for Moyes if he could tick either of the "good football" or "results" boxes.

I'm all for giving him time but it has to be till the end of season. Then, he either needs to have improved our play in the remaining games or got results. I wouldnt give him 100 odd million otherwise. Too much money to be on the wrong hands.
 
Varun_Utd said:
I simply cannot get my hand around that. You see how badly the 100mil thrown away by Dalglish affected Pool? It'l be even worse for us as players sign for us on top wages and long contracts. Its entirely another thing that Moyes seems to target the top players anyways so it shouldnt harm us but the theory is mental.

If a manager cannot get attacking players like RVP, Rooney, Mata, Januzaj etc to play good football, I wouldnt say he deserves cash to spend and get more in before he can be judged. We're talking about 3 absolutely world class players and a superb talent.

And Yes, I agree we havent been playing great football for a while now. That has been one of the biggest complains about SAF but it still wasnt as bad as it is now. Most importantly, the results meant it got overlooked. It'd be the same for Moyes if he could tick either of the "good football" or "results" boxes.

I'm all for giving him time but it has to be till the end of season. Then, he either needs to have improved our play in the remaining games or got results. I wouldnt give him 100 odd million otherwise. Too much money to be on the wrong hands.
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I might not agree with you at all with this, but you've put your argument forward in the right way and I'd just like to say I really respect that. Good post.
 
Freak said:
The World Cup is going to be his next excuse for the summer transfer window.
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Understandably so too. Unless we agree to pay extra early on, sensible clubs wont be selling their best players before the WC. Prices take a nice bump after a good WC campaign.
 
I think he'll be asked to go before another failed top 4 campaign (assuming this season we arent going to make it). So the time frame still seems like 18 months to me.
 
If and when we give him the money this summer to buy "his" players, we're almost banking our immediate to long term future on him, we're not a club funded by oil, we don't have the resources to give the guy after should Moyes still do poorly similar amounts once again, just because Moyes is targeting decent players doesn't automatically mean the next guy would ultimately fancy them, take Mourinho with Mata, and what possibly looks like a rift with Lukaku, similarly Moyes himself with Sir Alex's 15million Zaha signing.
You have to ask has he shown enough to date to gamble providing such amounts, and as of today.. you have to say No, he really need's to show something positive on the pitch that we can continue to cling in hope before the season ends.
 
It's almost as if Moyes needs eleven top class players on the pitch to get results, that's pretty much how he's painted the picture himself. He literally needs a first eleven so good it can manage itself.
 
MDFC Manager said:
I think he'll be asked to go before another failed top 4 campaign (assuming this season we arent going to make it). So the time frame still seems like 18 months to me.
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Same here. He'l be given the funds to sign players in the summer and then half of next season to get us going. If not, he'l be off.
 
Orton said:
Of course lots of managers would want to come here. It's Manchester United, not Stoke City. We probably could have had any manager we wanted, except Guardiola.
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Klopp, Ancelotti, Mourinho, Wenger, Rodgers, Pelligrini, Martino, Guardiola, Benitez, Conte and Simeone probably wouldn't.

Maybe you could go for Hodgson? Seeing as most of you thought we didn't give him enough time, maybe you could bring him in and give him more than us? :)
 
The build your squad is actually a terrible argument, suggesting that none of the players are good enough and Moyes needs around £200m facelift on the team that finished champions the year before.

If that's the case then we could probably not have made Moyes the 7th highest paid manager in the world.

A good manager is able to make the best of what he has, and frankly it's not as if Moyes has been starved of good players.
 
KiD CaNtO said:
It's almost as if Moyes needs eleven top class players on the pitch to get results, that's pretty much how he's painted the picture himself. He literally needs a first eleven so good it can manage itself.
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No, he needs Carrick in midfield and atleast one of Rooney and RVP upfront, thats all
 
BarneyLFC said:
Klopp, Ancelotti, Mourinho, Wenger, Rodgers, Pelligrini, Martino, Guardiola, Benitez, Conte and Simeone probably wouldn't.

Maybe you could go for Hodgson? Seeing as most of you thought we didn't give him enough time, maybe you could bring him in and give him more than us? :)
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The ones in bold I wouldnt want.

Agree regarding Mourinho, Wenger and Pellegrini.

The remaining should be available in few years time. Varies from the likes of Simeone who I think would come end of next season if we wanted to Guardiola who I think will leave Bayern after the next 3-4 seasons.

There wont be a shortage of top managers if we do eventually sack Moyes as I think it wont happen till atleast the middle of next season.
 
KiD CaNtO said:
Am I missing something? He's had that for large parts of the season and he's blamed the lack of overall quality.
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He's had that in around 2/3rds of the games, even the you get games like Saturday where injury robbed him of Carrick in midfield, hes had no luck
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Yeah, well - that team of alcoholics were well on the way to winning the league a year before Fergie took over.
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if you call being in the relegation zone with 13 points from 13 games "well on their way", then it looks like youve also been effected by the delusional aspect of moyes reign. that team were nowhere near league realistic title contenders in 85 and 86...they finished 4th both years and were a combined total of 26 points off first place in those two season. i wish you would do some research before posting rubbush.

Ta ra fergie was from one gobshite that gave the impression that 100,000 people wanted him out, it was a small section of fans. talking about behind the scenes, people knew the work fergie was going to have to do, he totally restructured the youth set up, totally changed the mentality of the club. Moyes didnt need to do the latter, but he actually has gone about it, albeit in the wrong direction.
 
RvP made 7 passes that day

If Moyes can't tell him to play it right, he should have the bollocks to drop him.

7 passes ffs..... 7 passes in 90 minutes for a supposedly best striker in the world... granted we're playing hoofball, but dear me....
 
The argument for why he isn't up to the job is so overwhelming it's staggering. We even have b20 on arguing it, with not even a hint of a WUM.
 
Tomalonge said:
Yes, I truly believe that. Yes we wait until then. No we keep the talent and appreciate where it came from. I'd like to point out that from that list of 4 you've picked a Moyes signing and someone Moyes gave a chance to.

The two seasons before Moyes' arrival was full of shit on a stick football too. Those former two of those players you mentioned dragged us through the season and elevated our position to above, in my opinion, what it should have been. It's not like we've spent the last 5 years brutally tearing teams apart, we've not been playing the best football for a while now and the squad has been in need of improving for about 2-3 years now. DM has at least tried to address the midfield with a signing, albeit maybe not the right one, but time will tell on that too.
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You make some valid points in this thread Tom, but not all good managers come good eventually, sometimes things just don't work out, sometimes a manager seems like a perfect fit for a club, other times it just feels wrong, if you're in charge of this club i'm sure you'd expect to see something positive to makes you think you should stand by the manager and give him all the money he needs, why should he get full support no matter what? at least he needs to turn things around and finish the season on a high to deserve another one.
 
KiD CaNtO said:
Firstly, you've absolutely noway of knowing Moyes will be fine. In fact, if Moyes is to be fine it's gonna take a massive change in tactics, performance and luck.

Secondly, I don't think anyone thinks Moyes is a bad manager. The fact is he is a good manager. But that's the issue, he's exactly that. The biggest job in British football should not have gone to a good manager. Big Sam is a good manager. Tony Pulis is a good manager. He is out of his depth and he has us sinking, rapidly. The job should have gone to a great manager, a positive tactician with charisma.

Managers who are world class manage top clubs all the time. Madrid only line up world class managers. City and Chelsea go for European standard managers. We haven't and the romanticism has failed to pay dividends.
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There is a difference between Moyes and Big Sam/Pulis. For one thing, he never got the sack at Everton and he won the LMA manager of the year award for 3 years in his tenure.

Not to say i fully approved the appointment of Moyes in the first place. I thought Mourinho was a dead cert for the job especially after last years champions league defeat & interview. Can hardly call Jose or SAF as 'positive tacticians'. If anything, Moyes has put out much more attacking teams than i have seen in a while. Against Stoke, at one point we had Young, Rooney, RVP, Mata, Welbeck on the pitch. In regards to being out of his depth, I agree with you to an extent, especially at the start of his tenure. Moyes had no idea what he was heading into. The media barrage, the constant spotlight, the transfer summer saga, how to actually talk to the media etc I used to watch his interviews and cringe a little how he tried to explain the experience he had at Preston and Everton would hold him in good stead.

However, i do believe he has been learning on the job and learning fast. Ideally, it would have been nice to have a manager who was 'ready made' so to speak but the board and SAF decided to pick someone who is hard-working, can be moulded, and someone who wants to learn and become United through and through. Moyes may not be the finished article now but we gave him a 6 year contract. If we really wanted Mourinho, we would have got him. We went the other way. Moyes will learn so much from this season and he and the team will get better and better. Even if we have not been getting the results, we have been playing better football than last season in my opinion, especially away from home. We were dreadful. The only difference was that RVP would change the game with some individual brilliance. Unfortunately for us, he has been injured for most of the season otherwise there is no way we would be in the position we are at present.

So far, not so good. I understand that. I agree with you! However, i can see the man is growing into the job. He struggled early on but i can see Moyes coming out of his shell and i just feel like he understands what needs to be done. When i see him watching the likes of Bayern, Juventus etc One thing i know is that he will be working 24/7 to make sure we climb up the table. His work ethic is undeniable and he does not want to disappoint.

Hopefully, we can go on a good run from now to the end of the season and the pressure will ease. Top 4 is still achievable and we have to play many of our rivals. No matter what, he deserves till atleast this time next year. Then we can really give a real assessment on how the team has progressed. In short...needs more time. Changing manager now would be very unfair to the club, the players, and the fans.
 
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