I have to agree with all of that! Sir Alex's man management skill has always been one of his strongest, and players respected as well as feared of him, which always worked the best when it comes to performing. Moreover, SAF's winning mentality is second to none. Losing/drawing was never acceptable to him and the players know it. You can have a whole bunch of skillful and gifted players, but if they have any doubt in themselves and are lacking in those winning drive, they wouldn't win games and not to mention becoming champions which require consistency (keep winning) and resilience. Having players sharing the same mentality also helps as in the case of Eric Cantona for example.
Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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I have to agree with all of that! Sir Alex's man management skill has always been one of his strongest, and players respected as well as feared of him, which always worked the best when it comes to performing. Moreover, SAF's winning mentality is second to none. Losing/drawing was never acceptable to him and the players know it. You can have a whole bunch of skillful and gifted players, but if they have any doubt in themselves and are lacking in those winning drive, they wouldn't win games and not to mention becoming champions which require consistency (keep winning) and resilience. Having players sharing the same mentality also helps as in the case of Eric Cantona for example.
The ironic thing is that we probably paid for Matic with giving them money for Mata. He gets rid of Mata and strengthens his team. Clever. Mata is great, but unless used properly adds to our problems.
Well said mate. good post
This describes in a nutshell why comparisons of Moyes and SAF are utter tripe. SAF was already European class when he arrived - he had pedigree.
For anyone who belives in the Moyes magic here are a few points that show that we are struggling big time..
This summer was the start of what has become a farce-like episode in the history of our club and signing Fellaini was the sad punchline!
1. Many games this season we had no shape at all, our last game vs Stoke was a clear example of bad tactics and bad management.
2. Strange comments to the press. How many times have we been better even if we are clearly playing without a clue?? How many times haven´t we had any luck?? It´s said that teams achive their luck with work ethic?? And there are many more.. I got news for you Moyes, managers who kling on to luck and other hokus pokus things are never in control of their own fate.
3. No progress.. Same tactics with few good results, no youth (Januzaj apart, he was clearly on his way last year) and no entertainment value what so ever.
I could go on and on about our no progression under Moyes we have constantly been apalling this season. Well 4-4-2 (4-4-1-1) with average wingers has been shown to be not effective at all. And with our midfield lacking why haven´t we changed our tactics to 4-2-3-1 ?? And when we are loosing why not throw the kitchen sink?
We won the league last season with apparently terrible squad some have been saying, Moyes has said we need 4-5 players. We won with 89pts the same total as City the season before and the 3rd or 4th highest total in the history of the PL, now we could manage 25 - 30pts less than last season with the same squad..
We could argue that Moyes has given youth a chance in the past. But I see it differently he had to because of lacking funds at Everton, Ross Barkley had little playing time at Everton under Moyes but this year.... He has shown no desire to use youth and looks stubborn and dated in his approach.. Wilf Zaha anyone? Why hasn´t he had a chance when we had wingers giving us feck all? RB we have a couple of them on our papers in the youth deparment why use CB there? And this could be a great tool to motivate and give clear messages to the under performing players.
We have scored an impressive 39 goals in the PL this season, 16 came at Old Trafford.. Well you could argue that we are defensively setup? Well we have let in 29 that´s very impressive! 10 goals in plus after 24 games... Hull have let in 30 and Everton have scored 37... We have scored less than most of our rivals and let in more goals so if we are defensively minded we are doing a terrible job of it and clearly we aren´t attacking!
4. Fear factor. Moyes looks like a Deer in the headlights and our players are catching that virus fast.. Teams are having a go at us any given chance and we can´t punish anybody that´s trying!
5. He has no control over the players and they don´t seem to believe in his approach.. When that happens normally the writing is on the wall, but Moyes never has a go at anyone out there. He looks delusional when he speaks out about our performances, players look like they don´t give a shit.
He has lost the locker room and his compatriots that he brought with him look out of their depth! I could name a few times this season when the camera has panned over to us and Moyes and co look like they don´t know what to do next...
We need a manager that has balls, likes to take chances and plays modern football, Moyes sadly ticks very few of these boxes.
Sadly I think this experiment has run it´s course.. The sooner he goes the sooner we can start the rebuilding that is needed.
This summer was the start of what has become a farce-like episode in the history of our club and signing Fellaini was the sad punchline!
1. Many games this season we had no shape at all, our last game vs Stoke was a clear example of bad tactics and bad management.
2. Strange comments to the press. How many times have we been better even if we are clearly playing without a clue?? How many times haven´t we had any luck?? It´s said that teams achive their luck with work ethic?? And there are many more.. I got news for you Moyes, managers who kling on to luck and other hokus pokus things are never in control of their own fate.
3. No progress.. Same tactics with few good results, no youth (Januzaj apart, he was clearly on his way last year) and no entertainment value what so ever.
I could go on and on about our no progression under Moyes we have constantly been apalling this season. Well 4-4-2 (4-4-1-1) with average wingers has been shown to be not effective at all. And with our midfield lacking why haven´t we changed our tactics to 4-2-3-1 ?? And when we are loosing why not throw the kitchen sink?
We won the league last season with apparently terrible squad some have been saying, Moyes has said we need 4-5 players. We won with 89pts the same total as City the season before and the 3rd or 4th highest total in the history of the PL, now we could manage 25 - 30pts less than last season with the same squad..
We could argue that Moyes has given youth a chance in the past. But I see it differently he had to because of lacking funds at Everton, Ross Barkley had little playing time at Everton under Moyes but this year.... He has shown no desire to use youth and looks stubborn and dated in his approach.. Wilf Zaha anyone? Why hasn´t he had a chance when we had wingers giving us feck all? RB we have a couple of them on our papers in the youth deparment why use CB there? And this could be a great tool to motivate and give clear messages to the under performing players.
We have scored an impressive 39 goals in the PL this season, 16 came at Old Trafford.. Well you could argue that we are defensively setup? Well we have let in 29 that´s very impressive! 10 goals in plus after 24 games... Hull have let in 30 and Everton have scored 37... We have scored less than most of our rivals and let in more goals so if we are defensively minded we are doing a terrible job of it and clearly we aren´t attacking!
4. Fear factor. Moyes looks like a Deer in the headlights and our players are catching that virus fast.. Teams are having a go at us any given chance and we can´t punish anybody that´s trying!
5. He has no control over the players and they don´t seem to believe in his approach.. When that happens normally the writing is on the wall, but Moyes never has a go at anyone out there. He looks delusional when he speaks out about our performances, players look like they don´t give a shit.
He has lost the locker room and his compatriots that he brought with him look out of their depth! I could name a few times this season when the camera has panned over to us and Moyes and co look like they don´t know what to do next...
We need a manager that has balls, likes to take chances and plays modern football, Moyes sadly ticks very few of these boxes.
Sadly I think this experiment has run it´s course.. The sooner he goes the sooner we can start the rebuilding that is needed.
What do we see as a likely scenario that'll play out? I can't see that he'll be going before during next season...
I genuinely think the only way to get him out this season is for the crowd to turn against him. We have had a few 'boo'ings' this season, but it will need to be hugely escalated for the board to take note.
I'm not saying this is the course of action to take, as it could be detrimental to the team, but if he has lost the dressing room (which I think he has), then it may be what the players want.
All speculation, I know, but something needs to happen other than the defeats and utter dross performances, because the club seem to be accepting this.
Even Liverpool accepted that Woy Hodgson needed to go.. For me this is a similar scenario! We hired the wrong man accept it and move on..
Originally I supported Moyes, however over the last month I've swapped over to the Moyes Out camp. I just keep trying imagine other top-tier clubs like Barca, Madrid, Bayern etc hiring Moyes... would it happen? Of course not, he hasn't won a major trophy at the top level and we can see why. He hasn't demonstrated that he has the tactical ability or the man-management skills required for this job. Comparisons with Fergie are unfair for obvious reasons - of course he was never going to be as good as the great man.
Given that this season is a write-off the club might as well give him until the summer, perhaps he'll start to turn it around. Let's face it, if Moyes does get sacked he'll most likely end up managing mid-table fodder again because that is his level.
Moyes Out!
Given that this season is a write-off the club might as well give him until the summer, perhaps he'll start to turn it around. Let's face it, if Moyes does get sacked he'll most likely end up managing mid-table fodder again because that is his level.
Moyes Out!
Pep hadn't won anything as a manager when he was hired by Barca. Nor had Villanova. Ditto Schuster, Queiroz and Pellegrini at Madrid. Klinsmann hadn't won anything prior to Bayern either.
Fair point, though it's probably worth saying Pep had won things as a player, same with Klinsmann. Villanova and Queiroz had been big parts of winning set ups - and hasn't Pellegrini won some Argentinian leagues or something?
We had a dodgy start but got ourselves into a good position when we beat Arsenal. Then we collapsed, but managed to turn it around a little bit and get ourselves into an okay position at the end of the year. Since then things have been dreadful, and that's the damning fact for Moyes: each crisis period is worse than the last.
I wouldn't be surprised if we turn it around again and find ourselves a few points off fourth and into the quarter finals of the CL, and then get thumped by someone like Real and collapse in spectacular fashion.
It's cretinous excuse-making for Moyes, and he'll get away with it because so many (especially in the press) are desperate to feel vindicated in their dismissal of last year's squad.
I could see the City match (indirectly) costing him his job if it goes too badly.
I wouldn't be surprised if we turn it around again and find ourselves a few points off fourth and into the quarter finals of the CL, and then get thumped by someone like Real and collapse in spectacular fashion.
It's cretinous excuse-making for Moyes, and he'll get away with it because so many (especially in the press) are desperate to feel vindicated in their dismissal of last year's squad.
I could see the City match (indirectly) costing him his job if it goes too badly.
That's moving the goalposts, though. On Pellegrini I don't know, tbh. I only know he's won nothing in Europe in 15 years. But my point is really just that it's not that unusual.
I'm so disillusioned with life under Moyes, I actually said the phrase yesterday "I honestly think he'll stay for a while and destroy our club" ... which is possibly the most irrational thing I've said for quite some time.
That is not the crux of the argument though
The worry is that he somehow fails to inspire (either through words or body language or game-changing decisions), or at least that is how it looks to those who are watching on from the outside
No idea about what goes on behind the scenes, though I think he would have been gone if he had actually lost the dressing room - so probably it is not that bad!
We all thought Mata would be that sorely missing statement of intent. Perhaps he is! But unless results start improving, more and more people would be baying for his blood with every passing game - and that is but natural in this day and age
Fair point. Saying that no-one should have signed a manager who hasn't won things isn't true.
In all those cases though, they had some other attributes that Moyes didn't (Pep, Klinsmann and Schuster as players, Villanova and Queiroz as assistant managers and Pellegrini actually has won a few things). As has Moyes two special attributes that the other haven't: being Scotish and staying loyal to a single club.
Not all of them were succesful though.
Anyway in Pep (and Conte) case, they appointment have been much more similar to if we have appointed Ole rather than Moyes appointment. To me, Moyes didn't tick any of the boxes but anyway we'll see.
The truth be told, there is everything to suggest that he definitely won't be success here.
You again used Rooney's injury when he is more fit this season than the last one. We also had big injuries to key players last season too.
Again you mentioned that we won the league cause others are shit, despite that we got 89 points while City hasn't improve (at points) at all from last season.
What you are saying isn't based in facts.
I seem to say this every week but this weekend is a massive game, Liverppol are playing Arsenal and Spurs host Everton. If we don't take all three points against the team bottom of the league, then it has to be curtains for Moyes.
That's another tedious excuse for Moyes that needs calling out more. 30 games into last season we had more points than anyone has ever had at that stage. The only teams that would even have been close to us were Mourinho's best team and the United side of 2000. Last season's team were exceptional, if they hadn't spent the last few weeks of the season fecking about they would easily have been our best ever side in the league.
All the evidence so far points to the fact that he won't be a success... but ultimately, there is still a chance - somehow, someway - that he will turn it around and be a success.
Much like there is every chance I will actually do some work before lunch-time. All evidence points to me doing no such thing, but still... I might.
I think we just need to batten down the hatches at accept that he will be here come the start of next season.
For those saying that we have got the wron man and need to act quickly, who on earth do you think is available now and the right man?
We'd be throwing more uncertainty into the club and we'd be going into another transfer window without a clear plan.
The best we can hope for is that we do indeed sign the four or five world class players that have been identified and have started work on and if Moyes can't turn it around with them, at least we have the players for someone else to turn it around should we finally sack him.
For those saying that we have got the wron man and need to act quickly, who on earth do you think is available now and the right man?
We'd be throwing more uncertainty into the club and we'd be going into another transfer window without a clear plan.
The best we can hope for is that we do indeed sign the four or five world class players that have been identified and have started work on and if Moyes can't turn it around with them, at least we have the players for someone else to turn it around should we finally sack him.
There is as much chance as Gareth Barry somehow winning the Ballon D'Or. Unless we are from the future we cannot 100% say that he won't win it, but everything we know points out that he won't.
We might well beat Fulham, the bottom team, then we'll lose to whoever we play next and in 8pts behind Liverpool, Liverpool dropping points in recent weeks has given us some false hope of catching 4th, but the fact of the matter is, with Moyes in charge, we WILL NOT.
Would anyone take a loss on Sunday if it guaranteed Moyes' exit?
That's quite a depressing thought.
I've been Moyes' biggest supporter this season but the Stoke defeat and watching Chelsea beat City in the Etihad last night has changed my mind somewhat.
At the moment (from good managers) the pool isn't that big. Hiddink, Heyncknes and Bielsa. I woud bet all the money I have that each of them will be a big improvement and maybe even save the season (though the fourth place would be unlikely).
Another ten other good managers might (will) be free on the summer.
He won't destroy the club, but he will certainly hasten the 'Realification' of the club which I worried about previously and which I actually thought he would delay. When he goes at the end of next season we won't have a choice but to start spending like maniacs on world class players in their late 20s.
We aren't getting the fourth place anyway so yes.
Because he won't get sacked anyway, I hope we'll win though.
Seriously, how are people still replying to this abomination of a thread? There was a thread with the same name made in the newbs yesterday and even most of them said it was a silly ball of nonsense and refused to entertain it, yet people continue to reply to this one and actually discuss it seriously.
Let it die.
Let it die.
Anyone else getting sick of people predicting the future and presenting it as fact?
That goes for either side of the debate. None of you know what's actually going to happen, stop acting like you do.
That goes for either side of the debate. None of you know what's actually going to happen, stop acting like you do.
I wish I share your optimism, I've gone beyond hoping for 4th place with him in charge, I just hope he doesn't do anything ridiculous in the summer though I expect he will.
Sell Chicharito, Nani and Kagawa whilst handing Welbeck, Valencia and Young new contracts seems where he'll start,
Spending the whole summer trying to sign Kroos or Reus or Vidal and then panic buying on Jim White Day again?
What on Earth has Danny done to deserve being lumped in with those two useless bastards?
Can we get some names on that 10?
I honestly can't name 10 managers that I feel are good enough for United. I can think of 8, 3 of which you mentioned and the other 5 won't be available any time soon.
Wow. We actually have a Moyes Sack Watch thread on the caf. I'd be laughing if this was RAWK.
Agreed, I'd take 17th place and him gone if it guaranteed his exit.
It's not that big a deal. The results he's produced are pretty sack-worthy.
I made a list the other day. Anyway some of them are Simeone, Prandelli, Klopp (unlikely), Capello, the three guys I mentioned (Bielsa, Heynckess and Hiddink), Van Gaal, Laudrup, Martinez, Pochetino, Ole (while all of the last 4 are unproven, I never understood and agreed with that part of the argument and are countless examples of unproven managers being instant hits, more recently Pep and Conte). That Roma guy (Rudy Garcia) may be a good choice too, he's playing very attractive football and getting insane results. Ancelotti may be a shot if Madrid doesn't win the league and/or Champions and get the sack.
It's called making an informed prediction. No one knows for a fact that Mourinho will have Chelsea challenging for the title this season, we could have done a Moyes and dragged them down to 7th
, but most reasonable people knew that Mourinho has what it takes and will be successful.- Status