Moyes So Far!

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The home form is unacceptable. Its not all Moyes' fault but he has to find a way to rectify it before it makes that 4th spot unattainable.

Losing to Spurs Newcastle AND Everton puts us in a bad place in the race for 4th. We also have to play Liverpool at home so that could effectively have us regretting a lot.
 
marjen said:
We've played poorer teams away from home. Look up the Storeytime table and you'll see.
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What nonsense are you talking about? It doesn't matter if we've played poorer teams away from home; the fact is away, we've picked up all the points we are expected to pick up (except lost points unfortunately to Cardiff). One could forgive a side which loses points to Liverpool, City and Spurs away.

At home, we've dropped points in games we shouldn't be. I don't think Spurs at home is a game we should drop points in let alone lose. West Brom, Southampton, Newcastle, and Everton... again teams we shouldn't be dropping points at home.
 
@finneh

This comes from an over-rating of your own squad though. No-one is saying this team shouldn't finish top 4 - it definitely should. It doesn't surprise me though that you're losing games when your strikers aren't really fit.

Comparing Kagawa to Walcott is just a ludicrous thing to do. Since Walcott has returned, he has 5 goals and 3 assists in 5 games. That's productivity that Kagawa has never shown. Sagna has probably been the best right back in the league this year as well.

I agree no-one has flawless squad depth, but your issue is that you don't have the first team any more. Evra isn't up to it - Gibbs is. Kompany, Nastasic, Terry, Cahill, Mertesacker and Koscielny are all currently better than any of your centre-backs. Let's not go over the midfield again. Up front United are great.

Tactics are one thing and I agree that Moyes has got a lot wrong this year. I do think though that if you actually look at how United's players perform on the pitch, they've been overtaken in standard by others.
 
The most shocking thing about yesterday's game is the fact that despite having our best CM back in Carrick, we still insist on playing down the wings. The result wouldn't have bothered me that much if we at least showed some signs that Moyes is trying to drill something new into the players, but those signs just weren't there.
 
rpitroda said:
What nonsense are you talking about? It doesn't matter if we've played poorer teams away from home; the fact is away, we've picked up all the points we are expected to pick up (except lost points unfortunately to Cardiff). One could forgive a side which loses points to Liverpool, City and Spurs away.

At home, we've dropped points in games we shouldn't be. I don't think Spurs at home is a game we should drop points in let alone lose. West Brom, Southampton, Newcastle, and Everton... again teams we shouldn't be dropping points at home.
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Do you think scoring six goals at home from open play is in any way acceptable from the reigning champions? It's not like he's inherited a team of no-hopers.
 
marjen said:
Do you think scoring six goals at home from open play is in any way acceptable from the reigning champions? It's not like he's inherited a team of no-hopers.
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NO, and did I say it was? I'm trying to explain to you that the issue is not Moyes, but rather the fact the players are likely feeling a burden; a pressure; an expectation, that they've previously been shielded from due to the SAF. But you're too thick to understand or appreciate that.

Anyway, as I said in the other thread, it's futile discussing with you. So I'm done with that.
 
rpitroda said:
NO, and did I say it was? I'm trying to explain to you that the issue is not Moyes, but rather the fact the players are likely feeling a burden; a pressure; an expectation, that they've previously been shielded from due to the SAF. But you're too thick to understand or appreciate that.

Anyway, as I said in the other thread, it's futile discussing with you. So I'm done with that.
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You don't think the problem is Moyes, but I honestly cannot see how he can't be at least mostly responsible, considering Moyes is the one real change in terms of the footballing side of things? Except for the coaches he's brought in, obviously.
 
Shark22 said:
The most shocking thing about yesterday's game is the fact that despite having our best CM back in Carrick, we still insist on playing down the wings. The result wouldn't have bothered me that much if we at least showed some signs that Moyes is trying to drill something new into the players, but those signs just weren't there.
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Carrick is deep lying though and does not really set too much stuff up. We always tend to try and score from the wing.

*Carrick looks nowhere near fit enough. He couldn't get anywhere near Dembele yesterday.
 
marjen said:
You don't think the problem is Moyes, but I honestly cannot see how he can't be at least mostly responsible, considering Moyes is the one real change in terms of the footballing side of things? Except for the coaches he's brought in, obviously.
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Then you're even more ignorant than I thought, if you are trying to attribute all of our poor performances to "footballing side of things." You don't understand the very basic concepts of human nature.

Moyes hasn't changed our style, an error. He fecked up the window, an error. He's playing some players who need to be dropped, an error. But to blame him solely for our home form is just pure ignorance and stupidity. You honestly can't see how I can come to that conclusion, but I can see why you can't - and that's because you're ignoring the basic concepts of a human; that is, we are not robots. We have minds, we have emotions, we have drops and gains in form. We have vulnerabilities. We have weaknesses, we have strengths. We don't perform consistently. Things affect our state. You can choose to ignore those concepts if you want, but I will tell you categorically that you are wrong.
 
alastair said:
@finneh

This comes from an over-rating of your own squad though. No-one is saying this team shouldn't finish top 4 - it definitely should. It doesn't surprise me though that you're losing games when your strikers aren't really fit.

Comparing Kagawa to Walcott is just a ludicrous thing to do. Since Walcott has returned, he has 5 goals and 3 assists in 5 games. That's productivity that Kagawa has never shown. Sagna has probably been the best right back in the league this year as well.

I agree no-one has flawless squad depth, but your issue is that you don't have the first team any more. Evra isn't up to it - Gibbs is. Kompany, Nastasic, Terry, Cahill, Mertesacker and Koscielny are all currently better than any of your centre-backs. Let's not go over the midfield again. Up front United are great.

Tactics are one thing and I agree that Moyes has got a lot wrong this year. I do think though that if you actually look at how United's players perform on the pitch, they've been overtaken in standard by others.
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I think it's easy to mistake bad form (caused in part by poor tactics) for an overrating of the team. You can interchange Nani, Welbeck or Valencia for Kagawa if it makes you feel better. Likewise you can interchange Sagna for Jenkinson. Minus City every squad has 3-4 player's who aren't good enough even for the squad that still linger on the bench like a bad smell. They have a couple of player's that aren't really good enough for the first team but are the best of a bad bunch in their position. They also have a couple of World Class player's and around a dozen that are great first teamers or very useful squad player's. No-one wants to go through a list of all squad members of 3-4 teams and compare like for like, but everyone except City have blatant weaknesses in more than one area. Managing these weaknesses and getting the best out of your most effective areas is a quality that is being shown by Rodgers, Wenger, Mourinho and Martinez, but is not being shown by Moyes. This is the difference that has cost us 7-9 points. Obviously constant injuries to our best 3 player's of last season in RVP, Rafael, Carrick and our best player this season in Rooney haven't helped.

Chelsea are managing their shite striker situation incredibly well. They are basically going on the principal that they have to create twice as much and be resolute defensively. Arsenal are managing their defensive frailties very well, by often pairing two less progressive central midfielders in front. Liverpool are focusing on keeping possession of the ball and giving the ball to Suarez, which limits opposition chances and makes use of having one player so much better than everyone else. Everton's strength is mainly through the middle (CB, CM, CF) so that is their focus, along with again keeping possession to alleviate opposition pressure.

United are playing like we have Fellaini playing behind Drogba up front with Ronaldo on right wing, whilst giving Evra a responsibility that only the best left backs to play the game could shoulder in their prime (as he did at 27). Everything is lumped forward to a 5'9" centre forward whose first touch is his worst quality and the creative burden is predominantly focused through someone that has been out of form for 18 months and who even at top form wasn't good enough to shoulder this burden. We play a centre back behind him who has zero qualities that would offensively help the former create these chances and when we aren't creating due to the aforementioned we throw on a player whose touch and passing are his weak point, but thrives on putting away chances... that we aren't creating anyway. This (obviously) doesn't work so we rush back our best player in the hope that whilst being unable to run he can bail us out; despite him having a poor track record of injuries, particularly when being rushed back. This is before you even think about the player's looking confused, lacking in confidence/composure and having any form of direction or plan.

Moyes said he needed time to assess the squad which is fair enough. However he still seems completely blind as to its qualities and frailties. He's setting us up the only way he knows how, which doesn't suit our personnel at all.
 
finneh said:
He's setting us up the only way he knows how, which doesn't suit our personnel at all.
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This is the same way Ferguson set us up. Any criticisms you level at Moyes for this style of football should be equally levelled at Ferguson.

I think Alistair is right and we just overrate our squad. Or more accurately, we tend to rate our squad based on our players performing at the level they are capable of, rather than their current form.
 
Theon said:
This is the same way Ferguson set us up. Any criticisms you level at Moyes for this style of football should be equally levelled at Ferguson.

I think Alistair is right and we just overrate our squad. Or more accurately, we tend to rate our squad based on our players performing at the level they are capable of, rather than their current form.
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Has that sentence ever appeared on the Caf before?
 
Theon said:
This is the same way Ferguson set us up. Any criticisms you level at Moyes for this style of football should be equally levelled at Ferguson.

I think Alistair is right and we just overrate our squad. Or more accurately, we tend to rate our squad based on our players performing at the level they are capable of, rather than their current form.
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You're right.

I would add though that there are some players in the squad that won't ever get back to their previous best. Vidic, Evra and Ferdinand were once world class but now need to be bit-part players.
 
Swansea salivating at the chance to be the next to conquer Old Trafford...
 
Theon said:
This is the same way Ferguson set us up. Any criticisms you level at Moyes for this style of football should be equally levelled at Ferguson.

I think Alistair is right and we just overrate our squad. Or more accurately, we tend to rate our squad based on our players performing at the level they are capable of, rather than their current form.
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Enough of this shit, a manager has far more responsibilities than just pick 11 players, their long term performances are also on him. Mockney said it best earlier in the thread:

Mockney said:
I don't really understand? You seem to be coming at management from the point of view it's just pressing some buttons, picking a good team and then watching a simulation. Playing bad football is entirely the managers fault. Whether it's a failure to implement a more creative style, or shake the team out of their comfort zone (i.e. the way we played last season), that's what managers do. He's the manager. He dictates how we play and has to manage the players to ensure they're playing well. If none of that's happening, then that's because the manager is failing. Picking a good team and making decent subs is only a tiny part of it. Otherwise he wouldn't have to do anything for 6 days of the week.

I understand that Fergie often played this kind of shit on a stick football towards the end too, but he succeeded at other parts of management (i.e. getting the best out of players) that it compensated. Moyes is currently failing at both of these things.
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The so called 'sensible' posters are coming with all the arguments but don't dare to say it straight up: Moyes is a nothing manager and is in way over his head.
 
It's worth saying as well that while our football was often quite dull last season, we at least were slightly entertaining in that we scored a lot of goals. At this time last season, we had scored 50. So far, we've scored 33. That's not to excuse our dull football from before, but at least results and goals came from it, at least leading to some more entertainment for fans.
 
Kevin said:
Enough of this shit, a manager has far more responsibilities than just pick 11 players, their long term performances are also on him. Mockney said it best earlier in the thread:



The so called 'sensible' posters are coming with all the arguments but don't dare to say it straight up: Moyes is a nothing manager and is in way over his head.
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I don't think you understood the point. Read it slower.
 
Sandikan said:
It's gonna be like this all season, winning run, then a defeat and people going massively over the top.
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They're not going massively over the top, if these winning runs were actually worth anything more than a definition (yes two or three laboured wins against nothing teams computes to a 'winning run') we wouldn't be sitting pretty just slightly above midtable.
 
Theon said:
I don't think you understood the point. Read it slower.
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I think I do, read my post slower. Him being a nothing manager is the bigger reason for our failure than our squad being suddenly overrated to the point of midtable mediocrity in the space of a summer.
 
At this rate Moyes shouldn't even finish the season as United manager. So far we have shown relegation form at OT and we're yet to play Pool and City at home. With the current form I'm not overly optimistic.

Every since Tottenham removed that clown they've been on the uphill. Can't really see us doing worse at the moment.I'm not excited at the possibility of managerial change midseason however after this season ends we should remove the dross and have some time to rebuild.

We really have much better team and squad to be lying in the 7th placed after 20 games in the season. Not to mention being champions last year.

Looking at the fixtures I think it will be a small miracle if Moyes manages to pull the 4th spot at the end of the season, especially Feb-March period when we play:
Arsenal (A)
Palace (A)
Olympiacos (A)
City (H)
WBA (A)
Pool (H)
Olympiacos (H)
WHU (A)

From that set of games on paper I can only see Palace away being 3 points in the bag. Both WHU and WBA are tough especially West Ham where we usually struggle.

Not to mention we will have a League Cup final in there somewhere if we manage to win the tie against S'land.
 
Only just managed to calm down enough to come and read some of the reactions to yesterdays defeat. I was in a proper rage, and try (as a rule) to only post positive comments. I'm of the "if you havent got anything nice to say, shut up" brigade.

Moyes isnt making it easy mind, and god knows what abuse I'd have put on last night (esp Beer fueled as I was!)

We've lost as many as we've won at home (4). I have faith in Moyes long term vision, and 6 wins on the spin was most welcome, but yesterday felt like all the good work (and confidence building) had been wasted. It hadnt obviously, and the last 15 minutes was an assault. Shame it wasnt a boxing match.

Such a shame to start 2014 feeling like this. I wish I had faith in Moyes transfer ability, but I cant see any quick fixes, and raiding Everton again will simply p*ss people off even more. Mata would help but Mourinho isnt daft enough to sell to us

Praying yesterday was just a blip in our recovery, but remembering how lucky we were to beat Norwich I'm bracing myself for more pain in the near future

The phrase Keep The Faith is very difficult to type today!
 
The problem with having faith in Moyes is that currently it's largely based on nothing other than he was Fergie's choice. Whether or not Fergie should have even picked his own successor was another matter.
 
Theon said:
This is the same way Ferguson set us up. Any criticisms you level at Moyes for this style of football should be equally levelled at Ferguson.

I think Alistair is right and we just overrate our squad. Or more accurately, we tend to rate our squad based on our players performing at the level they are capable of, rather than their current form.
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Over the last 2 seasons Fergie accumulated an average of 2.35 points per game; whilst Moyes has accumulated 1.7 points per game. It's difficult to level criticism at someone who is constantly winning (and tbf look at several threads on this very forum that did level this criticism). Likewise there is bound to be changes in training, coaching, tactics and our setup that Moyes has employed (even if subtle), unless you believe he has literally just said to the squad "carry on exactly as before, as you were winning before". If you believe that then that's an even more damning indictment on Moyes' managerial ability than my aforementioned frustrations, as a Monkey could do that. I certainly see a few changes in our play/setup that are not helping us: such as a greater tendency to lump the ball forward, Evra's position seeming to be 20 yards further forward, a more cautious/casual tempo when we are losing/drawing, starting the second half with more caution as to how opposition teams are setting up/changing, rather than focusing on our own game and putting them under immediate pressure, central defenders also seem to hold on to the ball longer, rather than release to Carrick (is there passing stats that would show a drop from Carrick?). Obviously one or two of these may not be statstically correct and it'll just appear to be the case as we are losing more often.

Fergie was a great manager, but no manager is worth 25 points a season to their team. Our team should be comfortably finishing second or third come the end of the season. Finishing 4th is a failure; finishing 5th is a disaster. As I said before of course we are going to rate player's based on an average level, not their worst level. However when a whole team of player's (minus Rooney) are all performing poorly maybe the problem is much larger than merely bad luck. Maybe it's motivation, maybe it's training, maybe it's coaching, maybe it's subtle tweaks of the system, maybe it's sheer confusion as to what the manager wants the team to do. Hell I probably think given the drastic nature of our drops in performance levels it's probably a combination of all of these (as well as bad luck).
 
Hannibal said:
He's going nowhere even if he takes us to the championship. He's the chosen one so we are the ones that need to drop our expectations to dog-shyte standard. I figured this out after the loss to West Brom. Our aspirations this season should have equal weight to that of Stoke fans. Finishing in the 8th position on the final whistle of the last league game should see our fans running to the pitch to pat the players on the back for a job well done.
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Oh man, you're killing me. It's not far from the truth.
 
Just reinforces Fergie's position even more. There can't be many doubters left that he was the best ever?
 
2 Man Midfield said:
Just reinforces Fergie's position even more. There can't be many doubters left that he was the best ever?
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Roy Keane I suppose. To be honest some people on here are blaming Fergie (aside from picking Moyes in the first place) for the entire problems Moyes is facing.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
To be honest some people on here are blaming Fergie (aside from picking Moyes in the first place) for the entire problems Moyes is facing.
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How is that?

And to be fair the only problem I see with Fergie is picking Moyes for his replacement.
 
Enigma_87 said:
How is that?

And to be fair the only problem I see with Fergie is picking Moyes for his replacement.
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Nah, he's responsible for letting the midfield get into this state. Moyes - or anyone else - would have a far easier job if we had signed just one top class central midfielder at some point in the last three years before Fergie's retirement.
 
Ramshock said:
Cant help but think having a fit Jones and RVP this whole season would have us comfortably in the top 3/4
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Help yourself then. :)

Even when we've had RVP around and had far less injuries earlier on, it never looked right. We had a bit of a run where we haven't lost a game, but our football still wasn't good enough. Sure, we'd be better with less injuries, but it's still a case of the quality players pulling the team rather than the team becoming at least the sum of its parts.
 
rpitroda said:
So why is that issue only at home and not away from home? You're hell-bent on attacking Moyes, but you show no appreciation what might actually be the cause of the issue. Compare our home and away form. Do you think a team with a bad manager performs like that, or a team which is feeling the weight of pressure and expectation which they have never ever had to deal with before due to Ferguson?
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Like it's been pointed out, when we're away team will come at us more and give us space which we use well. At Old Trafford they suffocate us and we don't know what to do against that. We can deal with the lesser sides, but barely create anything against the better ones.
 
Enigma_87 said:
How is that?

And to be fair the only problem I see with Fergie is picking Moyes for his replacement.
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Well it is almost entirely fergies fault that our midfield turned to shit. Which is quite a big problem really. Our style of play was shit, but effective under sir Alex. Under moyes, it's just shit. Sir Alex did try out various different things in the first part of last season, like playing without wingers, and we did have quite a few games where we were good to watch. It's just he realized we were more of a team suited to grind out results because of our efficiency, and the lack of good wingers, that he has us play like that probably.

I think we dug ourselves into a bit of a hole giving moyes a 5 year contract. I mean, what on earth did the guy prove in his previous stint as Everton boss that he would be a good united manager? And what warranted giving him a 5 year contract?!
If being at the same club for 10 years and keeping them mid table the whole time, and giving youth a chance occasionally, then it sure isn't hard to become our manager, is it.
 
Kevin said:
Enough of this shit, a manager has far more responsibilities than just pick 11 players, their long term performances are also on him. Mockney said it best earlier in the thread:



The so called 'sensible' posters are coming with all the arguments but don't dare to say it straight up: Moyes is a nothing manager and is in way over his head.
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Hard to tell considering the squad has so many problems. You can pretend that's not real all you want. Then you replace Hodgson with Dalglish and you're still where you are.
 
Siorac said:
Nah, he's responsible for letting the midfield get into this state. Moyes - or anyone else - would have a far easier job if we had signed just one top class central midfielder at some point in the last three years before Fergie's retirement.
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With that midfield we won the titles 2 times in the last 3 years and only point short of winning it three times.

Moyes had all summer to buy a midfielder or two and address the issue - at the end he did. He bought one for close to 30m quid that he even doesn't trust or use. Yes it was a glaring issue with our midfield in the end of Fergies reign but he didn't do that bad with what he had now did he? How he can share the blame? Fergie should be judged on the results, same as Moyes. After all isn't Fellaini the answer to our midfield woes?

bosnian_red said:
Well it is almost entirely fergies fault that our midfield turned to shit. Which is quite a big problem really. Our style of play was shit, but effective under sir Alex. Under moyes, it's just shit. Sir Alex did try out various different things in the first part of last season, like playing without wingers, and we did have quite a few games where we were good to watch. It's just he realized we were more of a team suited to grind out results because of our efficiency, and the lack of good wingers, that he has us play like that probably.

I think we dug ourselves into a bit of a hole giving moyes a 5 year contract. I mean, what on earth did the guy prove in his previous stint as Everton boss that he would be a good united manager? And what warranted giving him a 5 year contract?!
If being at the same club for 10 years and keeping them mid table the whole time, and giving youth a chance occasionally, then it sure isn't hard to become our manager, is it.
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Again, if Moyes thought the team was good enough to win the championship with this team, reinforcing the team with CM in Fellaini, then he should take the blame. Fergie did pretty well with what he got.

Besides, Fergie bought Zaha as a winger for the future. Moyes doesn't seem too reluctant to give him game time. Shouldn't Moyes himself pick a midfielder or two according to his style rather than Fergie spending crazy amount in his last season to bed in one, who may not be what Moyes wants?

Also, it is 6 years contract not 5, and the guy who had that idea should be shot.

Did Fergie ever won himself a 6 years contract?
 
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