Moyes So Far!

[Spoony]

Rio's statement had much more to it then just criticisng that he doesnt tell the players beforehand whether they play or not. That he comes out and criticises him publically is the main thing. It's a cnutish thing to do but shows what the players are currently thinking of Moyes.
Rio is a leader and well respected by the other players. If he thinks that way he's certainly no the only one.

I suspect the old guard found the transition more difficult than some others.

 

[Dominos]

The problem is you're living in a fantasy land where there shuldn't be any dropping off post Ferguson, despite his unparallelled management skills and a severe lack of proper investment in the squad. It was always going to happen and at the moment the team is low on confidence. I very much doubt we'll finish in 9th place. In the meantime welcome to reality.

The only reason there would be an anti Mourinho movement on here (which as far as I'm aware I'm not a leader of), is if there was a pro Mourinho movement on here, which is extremely baffling and irrational since he is the manager of Chelsea.

Where did I say we shouldn't drop off at all?

Though there's no doubt in my mind we were capable of winning the league again this season, Fergie or no Fergie. It's baffling to think otherwise, we were league champions by a big margin and had a summer to improve the squad to how the manager saw fit. I'd be very disappointed if the club had such a defeatist attitude as to say "right, we're in for a few shit years here and there's nothing we can do about it". Appointing a top class manager would've been a start. We didn't.

 

[Godfather]

I suspect the old guard found the transition more difficult than some others.

That's certainly the case, no doubt about it. But it's a totally different thing from finding it hard to adapt to come out publically spout shit like Rio did.

 

[Brophs]

You lot are nuts if you think he's going to be sacked soon. The Glazers will take their lead from Fergie and Sir Bobby. Not a chance they'll bin him this early.

 

[Spoony]

Pretty much this:

Rio's being incredibly twatish.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I suspect the old guard found the transition more difficult than some others.

This is starting to look like Chelsea and their senior pros.

 

[noodlehair]

When hiddink took over, they were going out of the top four under scolari and looked clueless. He steadied the ship, delivered a good league campaign and won them a trophy. Di matteo overturned a 3-1 deficit after taking over, something that looked beyond AVB, won them champions league and made sure they CL football for the next season as well.Grant tookover when chelsea were in fifth, and given the relationship between ambra. and mou it isnt hard to imagine that it would have derailed that season. Still he took them to a CL final and was one kick away from winning it while finishing as runner up in the league.

In each case, it was short term improvement.

And now they've gone full cycle and ended up back with Mourinho, with the fans hating pretty much every manager in between. THe only difference between now and when Mourinho left being that they've been getting gradually weaker as a team.

De Matteo's "getting Chelsea into the CL" involved winning it after a ridiculous amount of luck, including a succession of world class players bafflingly missing penalties against them. Attributing that to a positive impact from sacking a manager mid season is a bit of a huge stretch, to put it mildly.

In fact, using Chelsea as an example template for United is a baffling argument in general. They're pretty much everything I don't want us to be.

 

[Godfather]

You lot are nuts if you think he's going to be sacked soon. The Glazers will take their lead from Fergie and Sir Bobby. Not a chance they'll bin him this early.

Way too early to sack him anyway. But if he fails to qualify for the CL this year and has a similiar shit season next year then he'll be a goner and asked to resign if not sacked.

 

[Spoony]

That's certainly the case, no doubt about it. But it's a totally different thing from finding it hard to adapt to come out publically spout shit like Rio did.

Moyes ought to make an example of him. Which probably will cause more problems than it solves...

 

[DomesticTadpole]

You lot are nuts if you think he's going to be sacked soon. The Glazers will take their lead from Fergie and Sir Bobby. Not a chance they'll bin him this early.

Not sure a lot of us do want him sacked at this moment Brophs. A lot of us are looking at the players role in the current problems. They aren't coming out of this smelling of roses. There are only a few who are pulling their weight.

 

[OneUnited24]

Rio's being incredibly twatish.

Whether he should have done it in public is questionable but its still a good talking point

 

[Godfather]

Moyes ought to make an example of him. Which probably will cause more problems than it solves...

Yep. Will be a difficult situation to handle. Rio's quite a figure in the dressing room I guess. I'm not sure Moyes will do anything about it.

 

[pocco]

Where did I say we shouldn't drop off at all?

Though there's no doubt in my mind we were capable of winning the league again this season, Fergie or no Fergie. It's baffling to think otherwise, we were league champions by a big margin and had a summer to improve the squad to how the manager saw fit. I'd be very disappointed if the club had such a defeatist attitude as to say "right, we're in for a few shit years here and there's nothing we can do about it". Appointing a top class manager would've been a start. We didn't.

I think his point is that if you didn't recognise that we might drop off a bit this season then you either underestimated Fergies ability or overestimated how good this team is. Which one is it?

 

[MJJ]

And now they've gone full cycle and ended up back with Mourinho, with the fans hating pretty much every manager in between. THe only difference between now and when Mourinho left being that they've been getting gradually weaker as a team.

De Matteo's "getting Chelsea into the CL" involved winning it after a ridiculous amount of luck, including a succession of world class players bafflingly missing penalties against them. Attributing that to a positive impact from sacking a manager mid season is a bit of a huge stretch, to put it mildly.

In fact, using Chelsea as an example template for United is a baffling argument in general. They're pretty much everything I don't want us to be.

a) You create your own luck. Under AVB they were going out of the CL after the napoli game but di matteo kept them in the competition. Again, however lucky he was has nothing to do with the fact that he was a short term improvement on AVB.
b) Am not suggesting at all that we follow the chelsea model or that it is even right. Am just pointing out that sacking a manager can have its benefits.
C0 Look at bayern in this regard. They went through three/four managers to get to where they are now.

 

[Spoony]

Whether he should have done it in public is questionable but its still a good talking point

Shouldn't he be voicing his concerns with the manager instead of going public?

 

[OneUnited24]

Yep. Will be a difficult situation to handle. Rio's quite a figure in the dressing room I guess. I'm not sure Moyes will do anything about it.

Well hes already responded to it saying sometimes they tell the players earlier but most times he doesn't as that's what it used to be like in his day...

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Yep. Will be a difficult situation to handle. Rio's quite a figure in the dressing room I guess. I'm not sure Moyes will do anything about it.

Rio like other older players might be finding it hard to adapt. Maybe it is time to make sure the younger CB's play. Adnan is playing well because Moyes gave him his chance. The younger CB's might feel the same if they are given the same chances.

 

[noodlehair]

I didn't say tell all the player a week before training but SAF and SMB used to tell players 1-2 days before a game for them to get ready for it.

I said that example of Giggs to highlight being mentally ready is just as important as being physically fit and I question whether being told on the day of a game is the best way to go about it.

You can make argument for and against either way to be honest. You don't come out and whine to the media just because you don't like the chosen method though. Not unless you're an egotistical bellend.

 

[Spoony]

Yep. Will be a difficult situation to handle. Rio's quite a figure in the dressing room I guess. I'm not sure Moyes will do anything about it.

Well, players hold all the cards thesedays, a far cry from 1986 and Fergie giving certain players the boot.

 

[pocco]

Are those comments really that bad? Is Rio being critical or is he just discussing how he's finding the transition between managerial styles? I don't think even Rio is stupid enough to take a pop on national TV, unless he's thinking about his future as a TV pundit, which is possible.

 

[Brophs]

Shouldn't he be voicing his concerns with the manager instead of going public?

Out of form, out of favour player having a moan. What ever next? It doesn't seem to be doing Rooney much harm. Rio just needs to shut the feck up, like a good lad.

 

[Godfather]

Rio like other older players might be finding it hard to adapt. Maybe it is time to make sure the younger CB's play. Adnan is playing well because Moyes gave him his chance. The younger CB's might feel the same if they are given the same chances.

The thing I'm thinking about is more the way the older guard can influence the whole situation and feeling in the dressign room. If the respected players start to aks questions that can be a bit of a problem

 

[noodlehair]

This is probably more about being stuck in the habits of the Fergie era. They are going to have to learn to change. If not then bugger off. Surely it's not that earth shattering for them.

Exactly. It's embarassing behaviour. We need people getting stuck in and Rio's whining in public like a spoilt child about something barely significant on any level.

 

[OneUnited24]

Shouldn't he be voicing his concerns with the manager instead of going public?

Maybe he did but Moyes gave him an answer he didn't like. Again all ifs and buts.

Personally I don't think Rio should have said anything but if a, somewhat, figure head of our team doesn't like what hes seeing and is willing to voice it you wonder what the others make of it. SAF often said he would make sure everyone in the dressing room knew he was the top of the top because if he wasn't then he was finished (reading his book it was the reason Beckham, Ruud and Keane had to go). I get the feeling Moyes doesn't have the same authority which is bad for him with all these big egos around

 

[Godfather]

Are those comments really that bad? Is Rio being critical or is he just discussing how he's finding the transition between managerial styles? I don't think even Rio is stupid enough to take a pop on national TV, unless he's thinking about his future as a TV pundit, which is possible.

It's not all that bad no. But going public with those things is generally a shitty thing to do. Rio's been a twat.

 

[100]

I think he'd be more likely to resign than be sacked. Really can't see us ever sacking him while Ferguson is on the board. I genuinely think we could finish 10th and he'd still be in the job, we'd just roll out some more ex players to say he needs time like Ferguson had.

It depends on what Fergie really expects, I doubt he'd of thought Moyes would do anywhere near as bad as he is, and although the squad isn't very good in hindsight, I bet Fergie still thinks very highly of it.

 

[Godfather]

Well, players hold all the cards thesedays, a far cry from 1986 and Fergie giving certain players the boot.

All Moysey does is give the players his daughter it seems.

 

[Mickeza]

Shouldn't he be voicing his concerns with the manager instead of going public?

Rio is totally bang out of order for saying it in public but the point he makes is a good one, Moyes isn't managing Tony Hibbert anymore, he's managing big players with big egos and he needs to adapt to that.

 

[LR7]

Questions need to be asked about how we are preparing for matches in training though if the starting XI aren't working together leading up to the game. If they don't know they're playing until just before the game how can they have adequately spent time training on certain plays/moves etc together?

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Exactly. It's embarassing behaviour. We need people getting stuck in and Rio's whining in public like a spoilt child about something barely significant on any level.

What gets me is that players like Rio and say Evra are quite vocal and media wise off the pitch, yet on the pitch, where you want them to be leaders they are as quiet as church mice.

 

[Spoony]

Out of form, out if favour player having a moan. What ever next? It doesn't seem to be doing Rooney much harm. Rio just needs to shut the feck up, like a good lad.

Yeah...Moyes is in Catch 22 situation, does his give Rio the chop and risk losing the whole dressing room? All places of work are cliquey...and I can't see multi millionaires giving a relative light weight much respect. He'll simply have to bring in his own players.

 

[noodlehair]

a) You create your own luck. Under AVB they were going out of the CL after the napoli game but di matteo kept them in the competition. Again, however lucky he was has nothing to do with the fact that he was a short term improvement on AVB.
b) Am not suggesting at all that we follow the chelsea model or that it is even right. Am just pointing out that sacking a manager can have its benefits.
C0 Look at bayern in this regard. They went through three/four managers to get to where they are now.

a) How do you "create" the luck of Lionel Messi and then the German team captain missing penalties against you?
b) Short term improvements are no good for us. You can get away with turfing your manager out the door every year if you can go and spend £100m on a whim every so often. We can't. The most succesful model United have to base themselves on other than their own under Fergie, is Wenger at Arsenal. Arsenal fans like going on about how Wenger should be sacked a lot as well.

This idea that Moyes would be sacked and then you'd settle down and be happy with the next guy is proven farcicle by the behaviour of basically every set of football fans, ever.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Yeah...Moyes is in Catch 22 situation, does his give Rio the chop and risk losing the whole dressing room? All places of work are cliquey...and I can't see multi millionaires giving a relative light weight much respect. He'll simply have to bring in his own players.

He can just squeeze Rio out over the season, either bring another CB in or just make sure Rio only plays a few games. Rio is supposedly thinking of retiring anyway.

 

[Spoony]

Maybe he did but Moyes gave him an answer he didn't like. Again all ifs and buts.

Personally I don't think Rio should have said anything but if a, somewhat, figure head of our team doesn't like what hes seeing and is willing to voice it you wonder what the others make of it. SAF often said he would make sure everyone in the dressing room knew he was the top of the top because if he wasn't then he was finished (reading his book it was the reason Beckham, Ruud and Keane had to go). I get the feeling Moyes doesn't have the same authority which is bad for him with all these big egos around

Fergie was in position to get rid of the above mentioner players. He also stamped his authority as soon as he entered the doors of Old Trafford. But that was 1986...players weren't the mega stars they are today.

 

[Spoony]

He can just squeeze Rio out over the season, either bring another CB in or just make sure Rio only plays a few games. Rio is supposedly thinking of retiring anyway.

Yeah and start building his own team.

 

[Brophs]

Yeah...Moyes is in Catch 22 situation, does his give Rio the chop and risk losing the whole dressing room? All places of work are cliquey...and I can't see multi millionaires giving a relative light weight much respect. He'll simply have to bring in his own players.

I think, like Fergie in 95, we'll ship a couple of big-ish names during the summer to put down a bit of a marker. I could see us starting next season without Rio, Evra, Young, Ando and maybe someone like Valencia. That'd shake things up, I'd imagine.

 

[Spoony]

I think, like Fergie in 95, we'll ship a couple of big-ish names during the summer to put down a bit of a marker. I could see us starting next season without Rio, Evra, Young, Ando and maybe someone like Valencia. That'd shake things up, I'd imagine.

Which to be fair, ought to've happened in the summer.

 

[pocco]

It's not all that bad no. But going public with those things is generally a shitty thing to do. Rio's been a twat.

I'm not entirely sure Rio meant anything by it. I've seen pictures of Rio and Moyes having a laugh together in training so I doubt there's an issue there. I'd habe thought the players would be man enough to talk to Moyes himself about these things.

 

[LR7]

Manchester United lack confidence, says Jonny Evans

Manchester United central defender Jonny Evans says the side are being affected by a lack of confidence.
The Old Trafford side lost to Newcastle on Saturday and are seven points off the top four and 12 points behind leaders Arsenal, who play on Sunday.
"The lads have lost a bit of confidence. You can tell that with the possession and creativity," said Evans.
"Players maybe are not playing how they naturally would. That happens when your confidence drops."
The Old Trafford club have struggled in the top flight this season under David Moyes, who took over in the summer following the retirement of Sir Alex Ferguson.

United have lost five league games so far this season, with three of those coming at home, and have taken just two points from their last four outings.
Their latest defeat against Newcastle saw them denied a penalty when a Patrice Evra header rebounded off the post and hit Vurnon Anita's arm before Yohan Cabaye's winner.
However, Moyes's side failed to mount any significant pressure in search of an equaliser Newcastle earned a first league victory at Old Trafford since 1972.

The result increased the problems Moyes is facing but Magpies boss Alan Pardew has backed his managerial counterpart for overcoming his troubles if he gets the same support Ferguson received.
Ferguson's job as boss of the Red Devils was at risk when he relieved the pressure on himself with victory over a Crystal Palace side containing Pardew in the 1990 FA Cup final.

"I have great respect for David," said Pardew.
"But I remember the FA Cup final in 1990 when they scored with eight minutes to go. They got out of jail because we should have won.
"They stood by him [Ferguson]. David might have to have a year like that where it's touch and go but he'll come through it because he's a strong man."

One of the characteristics of Manchester United under Ferguson was the pressure they put on sides when behind but that, as Evans describes, was missing against Newcastle.
"Usually whenever we're chasing a goal at Old Trafford, especially at the Stretford End, we put teams under an enormous amount of pressure," said Evans.
"But with the lack of confidence and creativity we didn't produce that. It is hard to put your finger on it.
"We lacked a bit of sharpness in our passing and were sloppy in possession which allowed Newcastle to get control."

United only lost five league games in total on the way to winning last season's title and, despite the side's struggles during the current campaign, Evans has refused to rule out winning the Premier League crown.
"It's difficult [to win the league] in any season," he said. "The fact we've lost five games already makes it harder.
"But we won't give up. We are professionals. We want to keep going until the end.
"The most important thing is when we put the Manchester United shirt on and go out at Old Trafford or away from home, we make sure we give everything."

I've never bought the claim that the players aren't trying, or can't be arsed. It's rubbish. They just look low on confidence and devoid of ideas.

 

[Dominos]

I think his point is that if you didn't recognise that we might drop off a bit this season then you either underestimated Fergies ability or overestimated how good this team is. Which one is it?

Neither, because I recognised we might drop off this season. In fact I expected it when we appointed Moyes.

As much as we might drop off, we also might have won the league again. I've done my fair share of complaining about the team over the years, but the facts are we finished 9 points clear at the top, we had one of the best squads in the league because that would have been impossible otherwise. A top class manager, one who could recognise the weaknesses in the squad that Ferguson couldn't and address them, we had the potential to do it again, probably with more style.