Moyes So Far!
- Thread starter RedTillI'mDead
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Evans is awesome
I dont see it. Hes decent at times, but I see him mistime a hell of a lot of tackles and get caught out a lot lately.
In terms of cohesion and just knowing exactly what we want to do, and to a degree also the style of play, I'd say there's quite a few more than four or five teams that have been better than us. The quality of players has been pulling us.
I never ever said that we have played better than those teams. I said that we have the team (ie. players) better than all other teams bar City.
I think that Evans is definitely one of the best CB in the league and our best central defender. Maybe I am overrating him but he has been our best CB in the last two years. Evra is not a liability definitely, he is still good and I don't think that there are five better LB than him in the league. I think that De Gea is the best in the league, though yeah, the keepers you mentioned are having good season. You are right about wingers, though Valencia is turning back into form while for some weird reason Moyes seems to be harsher in Nani than in anyone else.
I know that the team is not playing well, I have been moaning for months about it. Just that except the central midfield, I don't think that there are any weaknesses on it. So, I think that if the manager is good enough, than this team would be one of the best in the league and at-least qualify comfortably for Champions. We'll see if this happens.
He is currently injured, so I think that at the moment I am better than him. A fit Carrick though is the best midfielder in the league.
At any rate it's obviously not true to say that he isn't anywhere near top level. It's true, however, that we're having trouble at the moment in terms of the back four as a unit. We haven't managed to make anything truly gel in that respect.
I agree with this and to be fair it is the thing I have been most surprised. I never expected us to be great at attacking but Moyes has been very good at Everton on defense and made some good defenses. Anyway, I think that he'll fix the defense soon enough.
Possibly, but even so I don't think Evans has been poor himself. We lack protection in front of the back four which doesn't help.
You're not watching many Utd games then. Evans has turned into an excellent CB over the past few years.
Easily first choice at CB for us now.
Nah he's brilliant to be fair Rob, very underrated outside of United (though that is changing). Revan was over the top with most of his comments but the Evans one is fair for me.
My winger comment was over the top. Ayway, Valencia has been shit last season while Nani didn't sign the contract and so didn't play but this season Valencia is coming back to form while Nani has signed the contract so I expect him to be better. I don't think that there is anything wrong in my comments about Rafael, De Gea, Carrick, RVP, Chicha and Rooney. Also, while Evra isn't great anymore, you won't find 5 better LB than him, and I put him on top 5.
Moyes needs a chance to shaft the average players Ferguson was somehow able to squeeze acceptable performances out of, and to build a quality side.
- Carrick is probably in the top ten. There's a few better.
- De Gea is one of about three at the top.
- Just about fair enough. This season we've not seen much due to injury/does Moyes fancy him?
- Fair enough.
- I'd have both Gibbs and Monreal over Evra right now. I'd also take Shaw, Cole and Azpilicueta is playing better there than Evra has for over a year.
- Just complete rubbish.
- Kagawa plays in the hole about once every two months and has been decidedly average in the PL.
- That's massively pushing it, given Ramsey's displays.
That's simply untrue. Evans has been really good for a long long time now and while he needs to cut those needles tackles outside the box, his overall ability is top PL class.
He can be suspicious defensively at times but you can't take his attacking ability away from him. Loads of assist already and makes us much better and well-balanced. Name me 5 better left-backs because that's what Revan said, right? Top 5?
but when he has he's played well most of the time, bar Stoke at home. Certainly showed how big a menace he can be, be it against Liverpool, Leverkusen etc.
Valencia blows decent and good if anything this season. I think you still judge last season's Valencia, just like many others.
Yes he does need time but he already looks a mature player and can be judged as one. And can you tell me what's wrong with lauding him as one of the best youngsters in the league? Everyone knows he is, if not the best.
Uniteds only weakness is in midfield. We have the best set of defenders in the league and we have to just make it work as a unit. Midfield is a problem but I sometimes wonder - both your and Arse's midfield created sweet feck all against us. Leverkusen's followed the suit. We did face some good sides this season and rarely lost the midfield battle. What I am trying to say is that while our midfield is the obvious weak link, it isn't light years behind Chelsea's, Arsenal's etc. as you may think.
There are clearly problems defensively. You've conceded 20 goals in your last 10 league away games. Arsenal have conceded about 4.
You can say you've got two of the best wingers because few sides are now archaic enough to play with out and out wingers. It doesn't really mean much. You'd never pick Nani and Valencia over Cazorla and Ozil, Hazard and Oscar, Nasri and Silva, etc.
You can say you've got two of the best wingers because few sides are now archaic enough to play with out and out wingers. It doesn't really mean much. You'd never pick Nani and Valencia over Cazorla and Ozil, Hazard and Oscar, Nasri and Silva, etc.
We can have better discussion when/if Nani and Valencia get a run of games in the side and find their feet for good. I'd comfortably take Nani and Valencia of old over some of those you listed.
I'd rather we weren't reliant on the form of potentially impactful but incredibly limited players like Valencia, old, new, or super saiyan.
Personally I think al's right. Our play has been far too dependent on getting it out wide at any opportunity and lumping it in.* We're virtually the only team still doing this, and seem to have next to no plan B, and certainly no C.
* Bizarrely, to players for whom heading is not their strongest asset either.
Personally I think al's right. Our play has been far too dependent on getting it out wide at any opportunity and lumping it in.* We're virtually the only team still doing this, and seem to have next to no plan B, and certainly no C.
* Bizarrely, to players for whom heading is not their strongest asset either.
Nani is an enigma because it appears neither Moyes nor Ferguson trusts him, despite having excellent performances in the past(2011).
You talk 'of old.' I'm talking 'of now.'
I think al's right as well, as we stand. The key to United's wingplay has always been winning the centre midfield first. Without winning there then wingers are a luxury.
I also worry that there's this idea that "United play with speedy wingers, we've always played with speedy wingers, we should play with speedy wingers" becoming a sort of detrimental adherence. Football has very obviously become a largely more central, technical game amongst the bigger teams of late. If that's the way it's going, there's no harm in going with it, and certainly a lot in resisting it for the sake of tradition. There's more than one way to skin a cat after all.
Which is correct, I just wouldn't write those two off yet.
I decided I can't help but want us to go on with wing-play. Can't live without it. If Nani and Valencia can't come back for good then we need to either buy the best traditional wingers, who are few and far between nowadays, or to what you propose - adjust (which we've been doing under Moyes anyway).
It isn't the only weakness at the moment: Both wingers (not in top form, don't create enough in their own right) and back four (unsettled) are problem areas. Midfield is a more fundamental weakness, though, as the other areas can easily improve dramatically without bringing in anyone.
It's true in one sense that we aren't lightyears behind - the players aren't that horrible. The problem is rather a combination of the set-up (which Moyes has inherited from Fergie, who was an odd one to say the least when it came to the CM issue) and the individual quality of the players. We're screaming out for a truly top class central midfielder to compliment Carrick, someone who can both help the latter shield the back four AND consistently do what Giggs did against Leverkusen: Provide a link between midfield and attack. Our best partnership at the moment seems to be Carrick and Jones - and if the task is to neutralize an opponent, these two might be up to scratch, as we saw against Arsenal. But we can't play like that against run-of-the-mill opponents.
It's not hopeless at all, though. If we can just get it slightly more together, perhaps get Nani on a roll, use Adnan wisely - get something more directly creative out of the wide options, we could get away with Carrick + Whoever, just as Fergie did, until we can - finally - sign a top class player come summer. It can easily be enough to land a decent finish in the league - the other teams aren't all that either. And in Rooney and RVP we have players who can win matches virtually on their own - they don't require top notch service at all times, thankfully. But they do require some service. We do need some kind of contribution from the midfield as a whole - something beyond our somewhat stale crossing game.
I don't think there's anything wrong with wingers, it's the lack of genuinely talented wingers, as well as technical players that lessens are ability to function in this way. We simply don't have an adequate contribution from the midfield to control games or offer support centrally, therefore when teams shut us off down the wings, we find it difficult to get anything from the game. There's even a massive difference when Rafael plays, just because he's more inventive and can offer more going forward. It's one of the reasons why Nani being left out is even more bizarre for me. With the likes of Valencia and Smalling in the side - teams can press us high up and shut off our attacking lanes, the deficiencies in playing through this then contributes to our downfall - a product of a poor midfield and technically lesser players, although that's been evident for years. The likes of Nani might not offer the defensive stability that Valencia does, but he'll be contributing to a more diverse and technical game that then reduces our need to have total control of our own side of the pitch and leads to us spending a larger portion of the game on the attack.
We have one problem in defence. His name's Rio Ferdinand and over the last two seaons when he doesn't play we have one of the best defensive records in the league and when he does we're amongst the worst. Some people still apparently believe this is a coincidence.
A week ago we were a point behind yourselves and two ahead of City, and a week from now it's entirely likely (considering the respective fixtures) that we'll be ahead of City and Liverpool.
With the tiny points gaps across the teams in 2nd to 9th these comparisons are asinine in the extreme until at least the halfway point. Once everyone has played everyone we'll be able to make a clearer judgement on who is actually playing better than who. And this is before factoring the small matter of cup competitions in which, for example, we just went to the second best team in Germany and took the piss while you got doubled by a team from Switzerland...
Being non-partisan and sensible it's clear that Arsenal are by far the best team in the league so far, and there's feck all between the chasing pack. It's also rather obvious that will be rectified over the coming weeks and Liverpool and the others will fall away to leave a clear top four with the obvious three clustered together a few points behind Arsenal. Anyone thinking any of last season's top four will struggle to repeat that feat is a confirmed spastic.
What a sensational pile of shite...
We need to wait until everyone has played each other to determine who is playing good/bad. Why exactly? Today we played some very good stuff. We kept possession and saw great performances from Rooney and Mr Jones IMO. Against Cardiff, we were useless. While we are now undefeated in 12, we have hardly been awe inspiring and with such - I hardly reckon we are in a position to make assumptions.
Why should Liverpool automatically fall away? They are playing good football at the moment (excluding today of course). Only last week they managed to take a point from a trip to Everton. Not an easy feat.
Chelsea - regardless of their Swiss endeavour, are still 5 ahead of us with a massive goal difference in their favour. Add to that the liklihood of them picking up 6/6 in the next week (I wish I could say that about our next 2 - which regardless of location, will not be easy affairs!).
Don't confuse this with anti-United at all...I am very pleased with the way we played. I just find it obnoxious and unjustified when bizarre assumptions about the next week can be made - when it is us with Newcastle and Everton.
If we're judging our squad...
Goalkeepers: No problems here. De Gea is already one of the best in the league (arguably the best) and will probably go on to be one of (if not the) best in the world.
Defence: Very well stocked here too. Rafael is already one of the best right backs in the league and has the potential to be one of the best in the world. Vidic is still immense. Rio is past his best, probably a weak link now. Evra is still pretty good but will need to be replaced soon. Evans is solid, though not near the level Rio and Vidic were at their best (which is a very high standard). Smalling and Jones have the potential to be better than Evans and are already very good. Maybe we'll need to sign another top cb when Vidic goes but I'm hopeful one of them will step up. Our back four isn't as settled as I'd want it to be though.
Central Midfield: The obvious weak spot. Carrick is very good but has never been absolute top class, plus will need to be replaced in a few years. Cleverley is good enough to be a squad player here but no more than that. Fellaini might be a little better than Cleverley once he settles but is also only good enough for a squad role. Anderson is pretty much useless and will leave soon. Giggs can't be relied on at his age. Certainly the weakest midfield of all the title contenders, could easily do with two quality signings.
Wingers: Another weak spot. Nani and Valencia aren't top class wingers. Kagawa isn't a winger at all. Young is lucky to be playing for Manchester United, a very ordinary player. Januzaj has plenty of potential but it's far too early to be relying on him just yet. This area needs strengthening as well.
Strikers: Embarrassment of riches really. Rooney and RvP both top class. Hernandez and Kagawa (when playing behind the striker) are both quality too. Welbeck still has a lot more in him and will always be a very good squad player at least.
Overall a very talented squad but one that suffers from a lack of quality and creativity across midfield due to the fact that we have no top quality players in those positions. Man City have a better team than us, Chelsea could soon have a better team than us if their young players continue to develop. Quite a few teams have a more balanced squad than we do, even if it's not as good overall.
Goalkeepers: No problems here. De Gea is already one of the best in the league (arguably the best) and will probably go on to be one of (if not the) best in the world.
Defence: Very well stocked here too. Rafael is already one of the best right backs in the league and has the potential to be one of the best in the world. Vidic is still immense. Rio is past his best, probably a weak link now. Evra is still pretty good but will need to be replaced soon. Evans is solid, though not near the level Rio and Vidic were at their best (which is a very high standard). Smalling and Jones have the potential to be better than Evans and are already very good. Maybe we'll need to sign another top cb when Vidic goes but I'm hopeful one of them will step up. Our back four isn't as settled as I'd want it to be though.
Central Midfield: The obvious weak spot. Carrick is very good but has never been absolute top class, plus will need to be replaced in a few years. Cleverley is good enough to be a squad player here but no more than that. Fellaini might be a little better than Cleverley once he settles but is also only good enough for a squad role. Anderson is pretty much useless and will leave soon. Giggs can't be relied on at his age. Certainly the weakest midfield of all the title contenders, could easily do with two quality signings.
Wingers: Another weak spot. Nani and Valencia aren't top class wingers. Kagawa isn't a winger at all. Young is lucky to be playing for Manchester United, a very ordinary player. Januzaj has plenty of potential but it's far too early to be relying on him just yet. This area needs strengthening as well.
Strikers: Embarrassment of riches really. Rooney and RvP both top class. Hernandez and Kagawa (when playing behind the striker) are both quality too. Welbeck still has a lot more in him and will always be a very good squad player at least.
Overall a very talented squad but one that suffers from a lack of quality and creativity across midfield due to the fact that we have no top quality players in those positions. Man City have a better team than us, Chelsea could soon have a better team than us if their young players continue to develop. Quite a few teams have a more balanced squad than we do, even if it's not as good overall.
Fair enough, he's got a great case when on form. Its a matter of opinion of course but I'm sure City, Arsenal and Chelsea
supporters will disagree.
Nobody expect us to be a world beater, let alone better or at least equivalent to Barca, Bayern, Dortmund, or RM
But the performance so far have been utter shite to put it mildy, there's no cohesion, no clear tactics (if you called lump it forward aimlessly a tactic), we rely on individual brilliance for every goal scored. When was the last time we had a properly executed team play open field goal? seems like to long ago.
Let's be honest, do we expect us to go in toe to toe with Dortmund, Barca, RM, Bayern and expect us to win? We don't have the god given right to win every game, but in SAF era we know we're going to win most games bar some teams in the world, and to be honest now I'm pissing in my pants thinking what will those 4 teams do if they're playing against us today, they'll tear us a new one it'll be embarrassing.
I don't have a clue what goes on in Moyes mind, if he can't find a formation that at least make us playing like a proper midtable (let alone champion of England) team for a start, what the feck has he been doing in 6mths? I've read that the team made 3 key passes against Spurs? What do you rationally expect with 3 key passes? We're lucky we got two goals, against better opposition that two goals can't be guaranteed.
Midfield, transition, bedding in period, getting to know the player, yadda yadda, been done to death. But it is simple "If he can't manage United to an acceptable level, he's not the one for the job"
Somebody mentioned that Jose only brings instant success while DM thinking about Legacy, well... what legacy would 5 years from now be if we fail to qualify for CL this season? and next season won't gonna be easier with more than 6 teams vying for that 4 spot and Chelsea / City getting more solid with another year in their belt? Remember Liverpool's fall from grace? it's not that far.
By rights and history, 4 is a given to us, but realistically speaking, unless we hit an extreme turnover in our performance, I don't think going on a 10 games winning streak is realistic (unless you have a jackpot winning mentality)
We can expect for grit and determination to bail us out and victor in a crucial game, but 38 games of EPL takes more than just that, we will need proper game plan and tactics that you know will work well at least 7 out of 10 times, hence we always pride ourself in showing our perseverance and domination over the League.
And in my eyes, Moyes fails in every criteria. We can't even string a few passes together, and that's worrying for a club of our stature
But the performance so far have been utter shite to put it mildy, there's no cohesion, no clear tactics (if you called lump it forward aimlessly a tactic), we rely on individual brilliance for every goal scored. When was the last time we had a properly executed team play open field goal? seems like to long ago.
Let's be honest, do we expect us to go in toe to toe with Dortmund, Barca, RM, Bayern and expect us to win? We don't have the god given right to win every game, but in SAF era we know we're going to win most games bar some teams in the world, and to be honest now I'm pissing in my pants thinking what will those 4 teams do if they're playing against us today, they'll tear us a new one it'll be embarrassing.
I don't have a clue what goes on in Moyes mind, if he can't find a formation that at least make us playing like a proper midtable (let alone champion of England) team for a start, what the feck has he been doing in 6mths? I've read that the team made 3 key passes against Spurs? What do you rationally expect with 3 key passes? We're lucky we got two goals, against better opposition that two goals can't be guaranteed.
Midfield, transition, bedding in period, getting to know the player, yadda yadda, been done to death. But it is simple "If he can't manage United to an acceptable level, he's not the one for the job"
Somebody mentioned that Jose only brings instant success while DM thinking about Legacy, well... what legacy would 5 years from now be if we fail to qualify for CL this season? and next season won't gonna be easier with more than 6 teams vying for that 4 spot and Chelsea / City getting more solid with another year in their belt? Remember Liverpool's fall from grace? it's not that far.
By rights and history, 4 is a given to us, but realistically speaking, unless we hit an extreme turnover in our performance, I don't think going on a 10 games winning streak is realistic (unless you have a jackpot winning mentality)
We can expect for grit and determination to bail us out and victor in a crucial game, but 38 games of EPL takes more than just that, we will need proper game plan and tactics that you know will work well at least 7 out of 10 times, hence we always pride ourself in showing our perseverance and domination over the League.
And in my eyes, Moyes fails in every criteria. We can't even string a few passes together, and that's worrying for a club of our stature
You keep on thinking that.
How is he still so underrated by opposition fans I have no idea. I'd have him as my first choice CB at the moment, yes even ahead of Vidic.
Sorry is that the same Rio Ferdinand who according to Ferguson had possibly his best season at United last year? The same Rio Ferdinand who has had a massive influence on the promising young defenders at the club? Ridiculous that you seek to blame a poor defensive record on one person, a player who has been, and still is a fantastic servant to the club. If Moyes thinks he's still good enough to contribute that is fine for me. Defending is a collective responsibility and everyone recognises that fact. Rio isn't the force he was but he's still a bloody good defender and an inspiration to those around him.
What a complete load of fecking bollocks. Jesus H Christ.
Less than a week ago, against Leverkusen.
I agree.
His team against Everton will be very, very important. Away at Tottenham he can be forgiven for starting with a defensive line-up and leaving it so late before making offensive changes.
Everton however is a must win. I expect him to start with Nani and Januzaj, with Giggs and Fellaini or Cleverley centrally behind Kagawa and Rooney. Rafael also needs to come in for Smalling.
Anything other than an offensive team going for the win and I can see the fans starting to get impatient with Moyes.
Everton however is a must win. I expect him to start with Nani and Januzaj, with Giggs and Fellaini or Cleverley centrally behind Kagawa and Rooney. Rafael also needs to come in for Smalling.
Anything other than an offensive team going for the win and I can see the fans starting to get impatient with Moyes.
Name those few who are better. Last season he was by far the best CM in the league. Yaya at his best is better but he is not as consistent as Carrick. Wilshere might eventualy be while Ramsey these days is playing more advanced. Also, he needs to play good in more than 3 months in order to be better thann Carrick. There isn't anyone else who might be in consideration in CM position. So as I said is still between him and Yaya with him being far better last season
Fair enough. Last year I think he was slightly better than Mignolet and Begovic. Cech is also in the mix
Maybe he doesn't fancy him but he has started him in every game he was available bar in two games that he has come back from injury.
Baines and possibly Cole are slightly better. Vertonghen when he plays as LB is probably there. Gibbs is about the same quality though I think that Evra is a bit better. Shaw isn't there yet. Monreal, no. Azpilicueta no but he is RB anyway. I said that he is on top 5, and yeah, I think that he is there together with Baines, Cole, Gibbss and Shaw.
Evans or Vidic? You can make an argument for Vidic not being there considering his problems in the last 2 years, but Evans is definitely one of top 5 CB in the league. IMO he is our best CB. Jones and Smalling are good backups, that was what I said, right?
Agree here. I still think that he has potential to become a great player if Moyes gives him the chance in the middle, but until now he has been average with signs of greatness every few months.
I should have been more precise here. By 'young' I meant players who haven't yet been proven and are young, like under 20 or under 21. So, I think is pretty much between him and Shaw. Ramsey of course is better but he is 23 (in a couple of weeks) so not exactly young. I thought always that it is a bit stupid in England how young player of the year can be won from 23 years old players. Anyway if Ramsey continue playing like that, he'll get both young player and main player award.
This is a comparison for all the "Big4" plus Liverpool, looking at common matches each of these teams have played, given any two clubs.
You read the horizontal to get that club's perspective.
If United had won yesterday, it would only have affected their stats with Chelsea and given them two more points.
You read the horizontal to get that club's perspective.
If United had won yesterday, it would only have affected their stats with Chelsea and given them two more points.
Whilst we can discuss Moyes ability all day, one thing is for sure that united fans have a vast difference of opinion on our current squad. I'm in the forces so work with guys who support pretty much everyone, and I don't know one of them who think United have a team as good as many on here think. Yes, we can call them bitter, deluded etc, but I know these fellas and some of them have no reason to dislike United as much as any other PL team, however, they all say this is the poorest united team in years. I am in the boat that this isn't a great side. I don't think it looks or plays like a title winning side it was last season, and where we all like to think we have good depth, I'd say that depth is poor (Young, Anderson, Cleverley etc). People keep going on about how we would be second if we hadn't conceded late goals here and there but the fact of the day we did. We don't create enough in the league to be any higher than we currently are and that is what Moyes needs to sort out and has failed to do so, thus far. Hand on heart, I think Chelsea, City, Arsenal all have a better squad and on current form we are no better than Liverpool, Spurs and so on. The table doesn't lie, neither does the goals for and against. For those who think we have to be in the top 4 are in for a shock if Moyes doesn't get this balence right soon because there are some very good sides out there and it's more than just a couple of wins to get in the top 4, it's sustaining that and we have played so patchy can you all honestly say you think we will be there at the end of the season. I think we have one hell of a fight on our hands.
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