Moyes has to go

Moyes out?

  • Knee jerk/I object to the term knee jerk because I told you he was going to be rubbish in 2003

    Votes: 296 80.4%

  • Head in sand/My name is Baghdad Bob and everything is going to be OK

    Votes: 72 19.6%
  • Total voters
    368
  • Poll closed .
yanuzay said:
Look at the post above you.

Also, Moyes is not shit enough to 'screw' the whole team. If he does not succeed, the players we would have brought of been world class or close to it as everyone would analyse every signing he makes. If the team still does not perform, the new manager will adapt quickly as he will have an already great team.
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Taking the champions to finish 7th (and get embarrassed in the other competitions) in one year = screwing.

You still didn't answer my questions. You made a statement, regardless of Moyes. This was your statement:

"we should set a precedent to every club in the world and show other clubs that sticking by a manager in the lows is a good thing"

Now explain your statement, and answer my questions.
 
Danny1982 said:
Taking the champions to finish 7th (and get embarrassed in the other competitions) in one year = screwing.

You still didn't answer my questions. You made a statement, regardless of Moyes. This was your statement:

"we should set a precedent to every club in the world and show other clubs that sticking by a manager in the lows is a good thing"

Now explain your statement, and answer my questions.
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This is the post

Shit, nearly go you there. :lol:

But seriously, for the next 200 years when a manager is doing badly their owner will say leave him there for another 3 years (if Moyes actually does good). This can be the benefit for us, especially if the that same manager is in a top club and fails.

But that point is my guilty pleasure, and has no bearing on the argument I made.
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What's the benefit exactly? Surely the example of Fergie was good enough but that hasn't stopped clubs firing managers at a ridiculous frequency.
 
Danny1982 said:
Were you serious, or were you joking and you agree that it is bullsh*t?
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I am serious.

But that point about setting a precedent, again, it has no bearing on the core argument I made.

The thing about 'setting a precedent' has to have so many things to go right. I.e Moyes actually been given time and him succeeding.

Like I said, it is just a guilty pleasure of mine to think we could be a club that not just plays good football but is admired for their culture.
 
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yanuzay said:
I am serious.

But that point about setting a precedent, again, it has no bearing on the core argument I made.

Thing about setting a precedent was has to have so many things to go right. I.e Moyes actually been given time and him succeeding.

Like I said, it is just a guilty pleasure of mine, just like everyone here might feel dumb after Moyes becomes a great manager. Doesn't mean it will happen, just that I hope it would.
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There's nothing really to feel dumb about. If he does come good in 2 years as unlikely as it is, it doesn't change the fact that this season was a complete disaster. Just like I'm sure that wouldn't change the mind of most owners. Most wouldn't sit through 2 years of shit before they turn good because they'd just think why not just get somebody in who will be good from the start? It's a valid thought as well. The excuse for giving managers time to get their own team is only used when a manager does shit. You never hear it when they are doing well already.
 
bosnian_red said:
There's nothing really to feel dumb about. If he does come good in 2 years as unlikely as it is, it doesn't change the fact that this season was a complete disaster. Just like I'm sure that wouldn't change the mind of most owners. Most wouldn't sit through 2 years of shit before they turn good because they'd just think why not just get somebody in who will be good from the start? It's a valid thought as well. The excuse for giving managers time to get their own team is only used when a manager does shit. You never hear it when they are doing well already.
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I'm not talking about the details in Moyes' case or any other case..

I'm talking about his statement that we must show the other clubs that sticking with your manager is better. Is that proven to be the case? And why do we feel we have to prove that? Shouldn't our priority be the success of our club, not scoring stupid moral points in front of the other clubs, or educating them about how to deal with managers?
 
Danny1982 said:
I disagree with a lot of your post, but I just want to ask you two questions about the bolded part (which is the most important reason why 19% of United fans still want to keep Moyes).

1- How do we know that's actually a good thing? What if changing your manager after screwing your team for a full year is actually the correct decision?

2- Why do we have to do that? Is it a moral principle we're trying to promote? Are we trying to be "more than a club"?
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Apologies for interrupting a debate i'm not actually a part of but i'll attempt to answer these questions personally anyway.

1. We don't, quite simply. It could all go to shit and Moyes may simply not be the right man for the job. Do we conclusively know that he isn't now though? I don't think we do. Don't get me wrong, he has performed below par for even his standards since his inclusion, the transition shouldn't have hit us so hard even if it was going to take it's toll initially. However, he's had a year with the squad and to work out which players are in his plans and which players he intends to bring in. I think we all know this isn't Moyes ideal style of football, it can't be, otherwise he doesn't have a future even now. I don't buy anyone who draws back to his Everton days either; he has a much higher standard of quality in all aspects at Manchester United. It's new to Moyes as well though, he himself needs time to adapt and as a coach you have to adjust your philosophies in order to circumstance and as times change, and for me that's what we've got to allow Moyes to do.

The argument for me to sack him is has he done enough to justify spending our cash reserves and dedicating money to him for him to build his own side? Let's face it, we've still got a very solid group of players who are a lot better than what the league table suggests. Fair enough, it's not Moyes' squad but it's hardly a group of players that you would completely give up on and imply you simply can't do anything with them.

The question is though who do we bring in to replace him? Are there any top class managers available, and furthermore, would they stay here long term? What if they struggle to adjust and we have another season of mediocrity and we begin a certain managerial cycle a la Chelsea, whereby managers have to do the best with Fergie's has been's before being deemed worthy of a proper chance to grow.

I'm not going to sit here and tell you Moyes is the right man for the job. I couldn't tell you that, and it would be stupid. I also believe it's a risk allowing him to create his own side with his own philosophy off the back of his lacklustre performance this season. However, i think it's also very risky to sack him and search for a new manager, with no obvious replacement available and no guarantee that they'll actually do any better. I'd rather give Moyes a year or two more before realising that's probably not the best strategy, than throw enough shit at a wall every year in terms of managerial replacements in the hope that some of it might actually stick. Sorry for not addressing your second question directly, i'm sure i've covered it somewhere in there.
 
bosnian_red said:
There's nothing really to feel dumb about. If he does come good in 2 years as unlikely as it is, it doesn't change the fact that this season was a complete disaster. Just like I'm sure that wouldn't change the mind of most owners. Most wouldn't sit through 2 years of shit before they turn good because they'd just think why not just get somebody in who will be good from the start? It's a valid thought as well. The excuse for giving managers time to get their own team is only used when a manager does shit. You never hear it when they are doing well already.
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I actually have this nagging thought in me about Moyes, why does he need world class quality to do good?

Why can't he use the players of a premier league winning side to do well? If you can't get the best out of these players, then how are you going to do the same with players from an upper tier?! If those world class players do come, there will always be a feeling in me that those players are not showing their best, even if we are 2nd or 3rd and winning the FA cup/League cup. If a new manager did come after Moyes at that point, there will be the same upgrade in performance as Pellegreni did at Man city when taking over from Mancini.

Makes me cringe.


P.s I still have not joined the Dark side.
 
yanuzay said:
I am serious.

But that point about setting a precedent, again, it has no bearing on the core argument I made.

Thing about setting a precedent was has to have so many things to go right. I.e Moyes actually been given time and him succeeding.

Like I said, it is just a guilty pleasure of mine, just like everyone here might feel dumb after Moyes becomes a great manager. Doesn't mean it will happen, just that I hope it would.
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I don't really understand what you're trying to say here, so I'll just leave it at there.
 
Moyes last and only hope over the summer is to find a real coach to take over from steve round who like Moyes obviously knows nothing about attacking modern tactics at the top level. Ryan Giggs could probably be a good coach and would have incredible knowledge about modern training methods. Or bring back a Mr. Quieroz...... I really think Moyes is will plot his own downfall if he does not bring in a proper coach to replace Round over the summer
 
Danny1982 said:
I don't really understand what you're trying to say here, so I'll just leave it at there.
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Fixed.
I am serious.

But that point about setting a precedent, again, it has no bearing on the core argument I made.

The thing about 'setting a precedent' has to have so many things to go right. I.e Moyes actually been given time and him succeeding.

Like I said, it is just a guilty pleasure of mine to think we could be a club that not just plays good football but is admired for their culture.
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ChrisG11 said:
Apologies for interrupting a debate i'm not actually a part of but i'll attempt to answer these questions personally anyway.

1. We don't, quite simply. It could all go to shit and Moyes may simply not be the right man for the job. Do we conclusively know that he isn't now though? I don't think we do. Don't get me wrong, he has performed below par for even his standards since his inclusion, the transition shouldn't have hit us so hard even if it was going to take it's toll initially. However, he's had a year with the squad and to work out which players are in his plans and which players he intends to bring in. I think we all know this isn't Moyes ideal style of football, it can't be, otherwise he doesn't have a future even now. I don't buy anyone who draws back to his Everton days either; he has a much higher standard of quality in all aspects at Manchester United. It's new to Moyes as well though, he himself needs time to adapt and as a coach you have to adjust your philosophies in order to circumstance and as times change, and for me that's what we've got to allow Moyes to do.

The argument for me to sack him is has he done enough to justify spending our cash reserves and dedicating money to him for him to build his own side? Let's face it, we've still got a very solid group of players who are a lot better than what the league table suggests. Fair enough, it's not Moyes' squad but it's hardly a group of players that you would completely give up on and imply you simply can't do anything with them.

The question is though who do we bring in to replace him? Are there any top class managers available, and furthermore, would they stay here long term? What if they struggle to adjust and we have another season of mediocrity and we begin a certain managerial cycle a la Chelsea, whereby managers have to do the best with Fergie's has been's before being deemed worthy of a proper chance to grow.

I'm not going to sit here and tell you Moyes is the right man for the job. I couldn't tell you that, and it would be stupid. I also believe it's a risk allowing him to create his own side with his own philosophy off the back of his lacklustre performance this season. However, i think it's also very risky to sack him and search for a new manager, with no obvious replacement available and no guarantee that they'll actually do any better. I'd rather give Moyes a year or two more before realising that's probably not the best strategy, than throw enough shit at a wall every year in terms of managerial replacements in the hope that some of it might actually stick. Sorry for not addressing your second question directly, i'm sure i've covered it somewhere in there.
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That's my point. The rest is details about Moyes' case and it's all debatable, and we've debated a lot about it here..

But in my post I was trying to refer to another point, which is the "principle" of tying ourselves to some myths/moral codes, which I don't understand why we have to do that.

It's not proven that if you give a sh*t manager time he'll turn up good all of a sudden. You can argue in specific cases that this manager deserves time, because he's showing promise there, or because we can find excuses for him in the time he spent, ...etc. But that doesn't mean that we have to do it just for the sake of proving a theory, without a proper assessment of how the first season went.
 
Will not this precedent we set be tainted by the phenomenal expense required for Moyes to bring it about? £160-260m to leave behind a team more mercenary than that has preceded it?

To say nothing of the fact that better coaches could very likely achieve the same end with half the sum.


yanuzay said:
Some say "what if next year Moyes has spent and is still doing badly", well cut the cord. Some may say "well we then have to build our squad again when he goes in a year", well he would of bought world class players with the money, right? So a new manager would come in should adapt quickly and give us success instantly with players we would get.
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So where Moyes is granted two seasons and two war chests, his successor has the comfort of a ticking clock and some loyalty points at the local supermarket? :smirk:
 
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yanuzay said:
Fixed.
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Ok, so that gets me closer to what you're trying to say.

You're basically trying to make us "more than a club". This will not end well, believe me, because we after all are just a club, and we'll actually be mocked for this attitude, like Barcelona are now mocked whenever something "wrong" happens with them (they were even scrutinized for signing a shirt sponsor deal, because of it).

Also, I don't see how sacking your manager after a full season, and after taking us to a sudden dip like that would tarnish our reputation. I'm almost sure no top club in the world would have kept him after this season. Not even one top club. So what's there to be shameful about?
 
Danny1982 said:
That's my point. The rest is details about Moyes' case and it's all debatable, and we've debated a lot about it here..

But in my post I was trying to refer to another point, which is the "principle" of tying ourselves to some myths/moral codes, which I don't understand why we have to do that.

It's not proven that if you give a sh*t manager time he'll turn up good all of a sudden. You can argue in specific cases that this manager deserves time, because he's showing promise there, or because we can find excuses for him in the time he spent, ...etc. But that doesn't mean that we have to do it just for the sake of proving a theory, without a proper assessment of how the first season went.
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Agreed entirely, sometimes the manager just simply isn't good enough and that's the end of it. That may still even be the case for Moyes, the more cynical side of me does question whether Fergie knew Moyes would struggle initially; although obviously not to this extent. For me you have to make the decision based on the circumstances at the time. If we could sack Moyes now to bring in someone like Klopp/Guardiola or someone of that calibre, i'd definitely take that even if Moyes hasn't been given a proper chance. As it stands though, there's no obvious replacement so i think the best thing for us to do is cross our fingers and hope it's simply a case of him needing a season to adapt. I'll be a lot more encouraged if we start to keep the ball as well as we did vs Palace in our remaining games, although that would require playing players capable of doing so i.e not the side we played vs Olympiakos.
 
Seeing the lottery scumbags winning everything is making it even more imperative that we get a decent manager in. Chelsea and City both changed managers this summer and it doesn't seem to have affected them so much.
 
ChrisG11 said:
Agreed entirely, sometimes the manager just simply isn't good enough and that's the end of it. That may still even be the case for Moyes, the more cynical side of me does question whether Fergie knew Moyes would struggle initially; although obviously not to this extent. For me you have to make the decision based on the circumstances at the time. If we could sack Moyes now to bring in someone like Klopp/Guardiola or someone of that calibre, i'd definitely take that even if Moyes hasn't been given a proper chance. As it stands though, there's no obvious replacement so i think the best thing for us to do is cross our fingers and hope it's simply a case of him needing a season to adapt. I'll be a lot more encouraged if we start to keep the ball as well as we did vs Palace in our remaining games, although that would require playing players capable of doing so i.e not the side we played vs Olympiakos.
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As a replacement coach I actually chose Hiddink, and if there is a chance to pick Klopp or Mou, I'd take it. There are a few other good names as well, but the problem doesn't seem to be finding a replacement, but accepting the thought of changing a manager after 1 season. I think that's the biggest reason stopping us from sacking him this year.

By the way, do you know that we had more than 60% of ball possession against Olympioacos before we conceded the first goal?
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
Will not this precedent we set be a little devalued by the phenomenal expense required for Moyes to bring it about? £160-260m to leave behind a team more mercenary in its nature than those came before it?

To say nothing of the fact that better coaches could very likely achieve the same end with half the sum.
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This is a point that is being constantly glossed over by those who are still beating the M.O.N.G drum...

One of the apparent pluses of hiring Moyes was that due to him "running Everton on a shoe string budget", he would, supposedly, not need to spend massively to keep us at the top and challenging.

Now we apparently need Moyes to spend 100m upwards just to get us back into the Top 4!

The reality is that we're spending to make up for the manager's tactical incapabilities.

Further still, the reality is that if Moyes can't get at least a coherent rhythm out of these current players, throwing money at him won't solve anything. He's already spent 70m and we look worse than before we'd spent!
 
marukomu said:
Seeing the lottery scumbags winning everything is making it even more imperative that we get a decent manager in. Chelsea and City both changed managers this summer and it doesn't seem to have affected them so much.
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Well changing managers frequently is second nature to those clubs. We've only had to do it after a couple of decades.
 
marukomu said:
Seeing the lottery scumbags winning everything is making it even more imperative that we get a decent manager in. Chelsea and City both changed managers this summer and it doesn't seem to have affected them so much.
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Shush, away with you, Dave needs to buy an entirely new team first. :)

And the new BT Sport deal kicks in next year too, if we persist with Moyes and miss out again we'll be really fighting against the tide [50m for group stage participation alone is a figure i've heard].
 
Danny1982 said:
As a replacement coach I actually chose Hiddink, and if there is a chance to pick Klopp or Mou, I'd take it. There are a few other good names as well, but the problem doesn't seem to be finding a replacement, but accepting the thought of changing a manager after 1 season. I think that's the biggest reason stopping us from sacking him this year.

By the way, do you know that we had more than 60% of ball possession against Olympioacos before we conceded the first goal?
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It wouldn't have surprised me, we did enjoy quite a lot of the ball after the first ten minutes. It was mainly due to our slow build up though and the difference was the territory, we were a lot more static and we struggled to work the ball past Olympiakos' midfield. I'll never understand what the point is in having Young stretching the play on one wing and Valencia on the other when we don't have midfielders that are going to exploit the space created in the middle. It just creates massive gaps, we struggle progress the ball further and then Rooney drops deeper and we struggle even more; even despite of when he manages to play a cross field diagonal because there's no-one in support when the ball actually reaches it's target.
 
yanuzay said:
I actually have this nagging thought in me about Moyes, why does he need world class quality to do good?

Why can't he use the players of a premier league winning side to do well? If you can't get the best out of these players, then how are you going to do the same with players from an upper tier?! If those world class players do come, there will always be a feeling in me that those players are not showing their best, even if we are 2nd or 3rd and winning the FA cup/League cup. If a new manager did come after Moyes at that point, there will be the same upgrade in performance as Pellegreni did at Man city when taking over from Mancini.

Makes me cringe.


P.s I still have not joined the Dark side.
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Yup, that's the thing. If all he can do with this current side of premier league champions plus Januzaj, Fellaini and Mata is put up a fight for the top 4 (he's not even doing that), then who's to say we wouldn't instantly be doing better with another manager? Unless he completely changes everything about himself overnight (given that he's 50, it's unlikely), then I doubt he'll ever be getting the most out of our players.
 
Pippa said:
@FineYoungCasual, what does "M.A.M.B.O #1" mean? I assume it has something to do with Moyes...
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It's an acronym for a secret order dedicated to preserving the sanity of Man United fans who are struggling to digest the unravellings of the club - a help group if you will. The Illuminati for the more philosophical 'Moyes Out' posters.

A highly select group, current membership stands at 1.

I'm hoping to welcome M.A.M.B.O # 2, 3, 4, 5 and so on. But we'll see, I was raised an only child so I'm cool with my own company...
 
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FineYoungCasual said:
It's an acronym for a secret order dedicated to preserving the sanity of Man United fans who are struggling to digest the unravellings of the club - a help group if you will. The Illuminati for the more philosophical 'Moyes Out' posters.

A highly select group, current membership stands at 1.

I'm hoping to welcome M.A.M.B.O # 2, 3, 4, 5 and so on. But we'll see, I was raised an only child so I'm cool with my own company...
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I see you have rebelled against my system....Very well then!

Anyone with the name "Young" in their user name is not applicable to my army
 
I just think most of us look like massive dicks after all this, especially seeing that embarrassing premier league predictions thread. And this will sound daft but who fecking knew the manager was such a mammoth honkin' part of the equation? These players aren't great, as we doubtless know, and Sir Alex certainly got the team to play beyond the sum of its parts but it's really staggering how rules and winning systems aren't sticky. You would imagine that after the years of sustained success under Fergie, the methods that work would endure after his retirement but they all pretty much vanished. There is probably a case that the 'enforcers' of those rules (Phelan et al) also fled the club but surely the players have some inkling of how to get that winning instinct back. Success really isn't a self-absorbing state and without a big enough man for the job, it all goes sideways. David Moyes pretty much turned the stability argument on its head. When someone as big as Fergie leaves, you really have to go big to replace him.
 
Bear Attack said:
I just think most of us look like massive dicks after all this, especially seeing that embarrassing premier league predictions thread. And this will sound daft but who fecking knew the manager was such a mammoth honkin' part of the equation? These players aren't great, as we doubtless know, and Sir Alex certainly got the team to play beyond the sum of its parts but it's really staggering how rules and winning systems aren't sticky. You would imagine that after the years of sustained success under Fergie, the methods that work would endure after his retirement but they all pretty much vanished. There is probably a case that the 'enforcers' of those rules (Phelan et al) also fled the club but surely the players have some inkling of how to get that winning instinct back. Success really isn't a self-absorbing state and without a big enough man for the job, it all goes sideways. David Moyes pretty much turned the stability argument on its head. When someone as big as Fergie leaves, you really have to go big to replace him.
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Can you link me the 'predictions' thread, I'd be really interested to read it.

I made one down the newbs back in early October and many posters predicted us to finish outside the Top 4.
 
So, according to the poll, there are about 300 people on here that want Moyes gone.
 
Knowing what we know now (and knew last May, but let's not digress), if we were suffering under another manager would anyone seriously suggest we go after Moyes?

I didn't think so.
 
How could United fans take moral ground just by keeping a manager longer than he should be, but still expecting the club to throw insane amount of money to get better position in the league?
 
Isotope said:
How could United fans take moral ground just by keeping a manager longer than he should be, but still expecting the club to throw insane amount of money to get better position in the league?
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It's the United way, we can't have a manager who poked someone in the eye once, but we can have a player-coach who poked his brother's wife for years and years.
 
Cal? said:
It's the United way, we can't have a manager who poked someone in the eye once, but we can have a player-coach who poked his brother's wife for years and years.
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I can see the reason why the club regard the manager to certain level of moral value. But I can't understand fans/supporters who still want to give Moyes time, just because United should 'set the precedence to the football world'. But don't mind the club to spunk hundreds of millions to 'fix' the issues :D. The ironing is too strong.
 
Isotope said:
I can see the reason why the club regard the manager to certain level of moral value. But I can't understand fans/supporters who still want to give Moyes time, just because United should 'set the precedence to the football world'. But don't mind the club to spunk hundreds of millions to 'fix' the issues :D. The ironing is too strong.
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Last summer, the negatives against Mourinho seems to be he's leave after a few seasons and he's need a lot of money to spend.

Now we have Moyes who should be gone after a few months and his apologists saying the way to solve that is to spend more than Mourinho has ever done in a single transfer window.
 
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