Mourinho tells Paul Pogba he'll never captain Manchester United again

redIndianDevil said:
Why? If a player shite, he is immediately dropped and gets sold. So why not the manager? What makes us so special that the managers we appoint should be treated like supreme commanders?
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tonnas said:
exactly, so support a manager that will take us to ruins because of the so called ''principles''. By this reason we should have stuck with moyes!
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We sacked Moyes because results were dreadful and he was doing a terrible job, not because he fell out with Rio Ferdinand. It is perfectly fine for us to sack Mourinho for the same reasons, or the because the football isn't entertaining enough, or because we fail to qualify for the Champions League etc etc and there's every chance we will do that at some point in the next 8 or 9 months. It's not okay to sack him because Paul Pogba has decided he doesn't like him. You cannot allow player power to run amok in that way.
 
el3mel said:
I don't want him to turn to full defensive midfieldera. What I'm talking about is if you lose the ball, you run immediately and make an attempt to either gets it or fouls the player. That's a basic midfielder duty. He's not supposed to be fully defensive but when we lose the ball he needs to a defensive job much like any other midfielder, something he did well for France.
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You see this isn't true. Pogba doesn't track back faster for France which is sometimes infuriating. The difference is that France are better at containing counter attacks which allows Pogba and Mbappé in particular to reposition themselves without the opponents being able to make any sort of damage, Pogba also plays from a deeper position and will often not be in a position to track back but part of the containment phase.
What you seem to think about Pogba and France is exactly why people in France aren't sold about Pogba and why he is not good when played higher, his tactical awareness is dubious.
 
el3mel said:
I was responsing to the claims about his World Cup form, that's all. Didn't start this.

@Cassidy , @JPRouve , you, chill it out guys, I can't keep up with 3 people in one discussion. At least one of unifies your opinions together. :lol:
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:lol:
 
CA_vampire said:
Actually France was playing with a more boring defensive setup than United.
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I think that was the point being made, different setup and instructions. Actually the bigger point though is that his role for France is more limited and restricted. At United he is given more to do. Thats in a team without the supporting players he has around him at France too.
 
JPRouve said:
You see this isn't true. Pogba doesn't track back faster for France which is sometimes infuriating. The difference is that France are better at containing counter attacks which allows Pogba and Mbappé in particular to reposition themselves without the opponents being able to make any sort of damage, Pogba also plays from a deeper position and will often not be in a position to track back but part of the containment phase.
What you seem to think about Pogba and France is exactly why people in France aren't sold about Pogba and why he is not good when played higher, his tactical awareness is dubious.
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Well, you watch France regularly so I can't complain.:)
 
JPRouve said:
You see this isn't true. Pogba doesn't track back faster for France which is sometimes infuriating. The difference is that France are better at containing counter attacks which allows Pogba and Mbappé in particular to reposition themselves without the opponents being able to make any sort of damage, Pogba also plays from a deeper position and will often not be in a position to track back but part of the containment phase.
What you seem to think about Pogba and France is exactly why people in France aren't sold about Pogba and why he is not good when played higher, his tactical awareness is dubious.
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You've got Kante to do the heavy lifting too. I wish we'd signed him.
 
Pogba isn’t captain material but surely Jose knew that before this season. He unofficially stripped him off vice captaincy last season I remember. Then goes and appoints him again as some sort of peacemaker. That backfired spectacularly and now his gone and took it back off in September. That’s shambolic management.
 
Infra-red said:
We sacked Moyes because results were dreadful and he was doing a terrible job, not because he fell out with Rio Ferdinand. It is perfectly fine for us to sack Mourinho for the same reasons, or the because the football isn't entertaining enough, or because we fail to qualify for the Champions League etc etc and there's every chance we will do that at some point in the next 8 or 9 months. It's not okay to sack him because Paul Pogba has decided he doesn't like him. You cannot allow player power to run amok in that way.
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Well said. Agree fully
 
Moriarty said:
You've got Kante to do the heavy lifting too. I wish we'd signed him.
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I don't think he's playing that well for Chelsea at the moment and isn't particularly suited to Sarri's football in my view. Cheeky bid in the summer, perhaps...
 
Infra-red said:
We sacked Moyes because results were dreadful and he was doing a terrible job, not because he fell out with Rio Ferdinand. It is perfectly fine for us to sack Mourinho for the same reasons, or the because the football isn't entertaining enough, or because we fail to qualify for the Champions League etc etc and there's every chance we will do that at some point in the next 8 or 9 months. It's not okay to sack him because Paul Pogba has decided he doesn't like him. You cannot allow player power to run amok in that way.
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But it's not the reason people are siding with Pogba, the main reason Pogba gets support despite acting unprofessionally is because Mourinho started all this crap when he started bitching about his players to the press. Two and a half years on, Mourinho has done nothing to help us, and he is alienating our best players too.

If all the players performed to their best and Pogba was the only one moaning, he'd be getting crucified everywhere but even Mourinho's trusted players look absolutely shite for us. So I'd rather have Pogba speak about things not going well than guys like Lukaku telling all is well and good to the media.
 
kr0nix said:
Don't forget that you'd never, ever, get Carragher to say that Mourinho is at fault and has to be replaced. For some reason they all find it much easier to blame the players rather than managers.
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Simply because they know with Mourinho here, we won't challenge for the league and the club has become a laughing stock under Mourinho. This suits Loserfool fans and ex players.
 
redIndianDevil said:
But it's not the reason people are siding with Pogba, the main reason Pogba gets support despite acting unprofessionally is because Mourinho started all this crap when he started bitching about his players to the press. Two and a half years on, Mourinho has done nothing to help us, and he is alienating our best players too.

If all the players performed to their best and Pogba was the only one moaning, he'd be getting crucified everywhere but even Mourinho's trusted players look absolutely shite for us. So I'd rather have Pogba speak about things not going well than guys like Lukaku telling all is well and good to the media.
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I don't think the fact that some people like Pogba more than they like Mourinho, is particularly relevant here. That people are also judging Pogba and Mourinho by the same standards vis-à-vis public pronouncements, reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation; one of them is a manager, the other is only a player - what each of them is (and is not) permitted to say in public is not the same.

None of this really matters anyway, we all know where this is going... Pogba wants out (regardless of the manager) and he and his agent are seemingly prepared to play quite dirty to that end. He will likely get his wish and be on the first plane to Barcelona in January. Mourinho is reaching burnout and probably won't see out the season. We will start anew next summer.
 
Infra-red said:
I don't think he's playing that well for Chelsea at the moment and isn't particularly suited to Sarri's football in my view. Cheeky bid in the summer, perhaps...
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That would be great. I think we tried to get him when he was at Leicester but he preferred London. I'd say get Pogba to tap him up but I suspect that would be a non-starter.
 
When Pogba leaves, I say when because he clearly wants to go and is engineering a move I'd be very surprised if he went to Barcelona.

He is the most un-Barcelona type player I've seen being linked to them in a while. Selfish, no team ethic, inconsistent, tactically naïve. For all his talent, he has no footballing brain as such. Pobga>Barcelona is a mis-match, even more so than Pogba>utd.

I personally cant wait for Pogba to be out of utd, I'm tired of the media drama he brings. I'm no Jose fan by any stretch, but Pogba has to go. Sooner the better
 
Infra-red said:
I don't think the fact that some people like Pogba more than they like Mourinho, is particularly relevant here. That people are also judging Pogba and Mourinho by the same standards vis-à-vis public pronouncements, reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation; one of them is a manager, the other is only a player - what each of them is (and is not) permitted to say in public is not the same.

None of this really matters anyway, we all know where this is going... Pogba wants out (regardless of the manager) and he and his agent are seemingly prepared to play quite dirty to that end. He will likely get his wish and be on the first plane to Barcelona in January. Mourinho is reaching burnout and probably won't see out the season. We will start anew next summer.
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So Mourinho, as a manager, is permitted to humiliate and undermine his players publicly? This is not true!

This isn’t a once off thing with Jose. He’s done it to several players (Mkhitaryan, Shaw, the players he found at the club) and at several clubs. When things don’t go well, Mourinho humiliates everyone publicly to protect himself, and it eventually results in a toxic atmosphere around the club. This personality trait is his greatest asset when things are going well and he’s firing at people outside his club, but it’s increasingly becoming his greatest weakness because his coaching isn’t as successful as it used to be and he’s turning his fire internally.

Pogba has made a mistake in eventually reacting to it publicly (I say eventually because Mourinho had fired several public below-the-belt shots at his players, including Pogba, before he got any pushback). But I think a lot of fans and pundits have automatically jumped onto the “no player is bigger than the manager and the club” narrative and completely missed the underlying problem of Mourinho’s toxic approach to managing his players and the club starting to bite.
 
sunama said:
I do agree. And I think it should be Jose, as he is older and should know how to handle a 24 year old who is quite immature for his age.
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This isn’t about “manning up”,and it’s not just social media.Its shocking that Pogba and Perreira were having a laugh and posting stuff on social media when the team was actually playing a proper match.What next?Is Pogba going to start filming the managers speech before every game?Pogba was completely out of order to do that and the manager did the right thing by pulling him up...
 
Infra-red said:
I don't think the fact that some people like Pogba more than they like Mourinho, is particularly relevant here. That people are also judging Pogba and Mourinho by the same standards vis-à-vis public pronouncements, reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation; one of them is a manager, the other is only a player - what each of them is (and is not) permitted to say in public is not the same.

None of this really matters anyway, we all know where this is going... Pogba wants out (regardless of the manager) and he and his agent are seemingly prepared to play quite dirty to that end. He will likely get his wish and be on the first plane to Barcelona in January. Mourinho is reaching burnout and probably won't see out the season. We will start anew next summer.
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Why is the manager(more like headcoach these days) position demands a different standard? He is not the boss of the club and he is only an employee just like the player. I think United fans still think SAF is managing, this is completely different. Why does the manager get excused when he throws the player under the bus for not coaching properly? Why can't a player do the same? It's not like Pogba has been doing this since last season, the rift began because Mourinho to mask his pathetic performance last year since January made it as if Pogba is the only reason the team failed and dropped him.
 
Craig Ward said:
When Pogba leaves, I say when because he clearly wants to go and is engineering a move I'd be very surprised if he went to Barcelona.

He is the most un-Barcelona type player I've seen being linked to them in a while. Selfish, no team ethic, inconsistent, tactically naïve. For all his talent, he has no footballing brain as such. Pobga>Barcelona is a mis-match, even more so than Pogba>utd.

I personally cant wait for Pogba to be out of utd, I'm tired of the media drama he brings. I'm no Jose fan by any stretch, but Pogba has to go. Sooner the better
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Lol. Barcelona? This is 2018 buddy.
 
EB100 said:
So Mourinho, as a manager, is permitted to humiliate and undermine his players publicly? This is not true!

This isn’t a once off thing with Jose. He’s done it to several players (Mkhitaryan, Shaw, the players he found at the club) and at several clubs. When things don’t go well, Mourinho humiliates everyone publicly to protect himself, and it eventually results in a toxic atmosphere around the club. This personality trait is his greatest asset when things are going well and he’s firing at people outside his club, but it’s increasingly becoming his greatest weakness because his coaching isn’t as successful as it used to be and he’s turning his fire internally.

Pogba has made a mistake in eventually reacting to it publicly (I say eventually because Mourinho had fired several public below-the-belt shots at his players, including Pogba, before he got any pushback). But I think a lot of fans and pundits have automatically jumped onto the “no player is bigger than the manager and the club” narrative and completely missed the underlying problem of Mourinho’s toxic approach to managing his players and the club starting to bite.
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In answer to your first question, yep. He's the manager, the boss. If the player doesn't like it he can express his dissatisfaction to the manager's face, or to higher authorities at the club, or he can leave.

Regarding the rest of your post, Mourinho has generally been very complimentary about Pogba in public, defending his transfer fee, praising his performances and hailing him as a future star. Mourinho's comments in the summer about Pogba's performances at the World Cup were hardly controversial and certainly do not warrant the kind of behaviour we've seen from Pogba in recent weeks (eg post-Wolves).

redIndianDevil said:
Why is the manager(more like headcoach these days) position demands a different standard? He is not the boss of the club and he is only an employee just like the player. I think United fans still think SAF is managing, this is completely different. Why does the manager get excused when he throws the player under the bus for not coaching properly? Why can't a player do the same? It's not like Pogba has been doing this since last season, the rift began because Mourinho to mask his pathetic performance last year since January made it as if Pogba is the only reason the team failed and dropped him.
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Answered above.
 
Smores said:
Let's be honest, these people can't form an opinion beyond "i dislike Jose therefore i side with Pogba". Might be wrapped up in some bollocks argument but that's what they're doing.

The idea that it's okay for players to act this way is just spitting on the heritage and culture Fergie built at this club.
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This is bang on.
 
Difficult to really favour Pogba that much in this latest installment. If I was project manager on a project going fecked and the contractors were filming themselves outside pissing about which the clients then got a hold of, you can be damn sure it'd get brought up in a bad light. If the contractor then looked at me like a mug I'd be fuming.
Imagine him doing that to Fergie.
 
I've thought about this a lot today and am pledging allegiance to the manager. Whether he is here next year I want Pogba gone he is a tool and hasn't done enough in the shirt to back his media shite. Jose will get is back on track it will just take longer than we all want.
 
Infra-red said:
In answer to your first question, yep. He's the manager, the boss. If the player doesn't like it he can express his dissatisfaction to the manager's face, or to higher authorities at the club, or he can leave.

Regarding the rest of your post, Mourinho has generally been very complimentary about Pogba in public, defending his transfer fee, praising his performances and hailing him as a future star. Mourinho's comments in the summer about Pogba's performances at the World Cup were hardly controversial and certainly do not warrant the kind of behaviour we've seen from Pogba in recent weeks (eg post-Wolves).



Answered above.
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I’m sorry, it doesn’t work like that in real life. Even bosses of ordinary working people have to respect their employees or risk a backlash. Again, it’s not just Pogba or these United players. Mourinho has fallen out with previous players before and previous clubs.

Mourinho defended Pogba in the beginning, yes! But he humiliated others and soon turned on Pogba himself. His post World Cup comments may seem innocuous to you because you’re not in the situation and are looking at them in a vacuum, but I can see how Pogba would have interpreted them as an unacceptable attack on himself that he needed to respond to. Mourinho was essentially tellin United fans that Pogba gives his all for France but not for United - is that fair? If Pogba thinks there’s issues at United that prevent him from being happy and performing at his best (like his managers on and off the field approach), shouldn’t he have the right to defend himself from that public attack? The moment Mourinho decides to air his grievances publicly, he sets the tone and the example! If he has a problem with Pogba, he should tell him privately.

This would all be excusable if we were out there playing well and winning trophies and it was one or two players. But we’re playing crap and Mourinho’s list of beef is growing. He cannot even spare Ed Woodward. If he doesn’t like Ed Woodward’s transfer work, why doesn’t he confront him to his face? Why publicly? Why make Woodward look like a shit transfer dealer to the world? And if he thinks it’s well within his rights to constantly question Woodward’s work publicly, why is he so upset when Pogba does it to him once? He wants to be the only one at United free to frame public opinion about himself and others?
 
Craig Ward said:
When Pogba leaves, I say when because he clearly wants to go and is engineering a move I'd be very surprised if he went to Barcelona.

He is the most un-Barcelona type player I've seen being linked to them in a while. Selfish, no team ethic, inconsistent, tactically naïve. For all his talent, he has no footballing brain as such. Pobga>Barcelona is a mis-match, even more so than Pogba>utd.

I personally cant wait for Pogba to be out of utd, I'm tired of the media drama he brings. I'm no Jose fan by any stretch, but Pogba has to go. Sooner the better
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Barcelona don't play like they used to. They have a more direct approach nowadays and it shows with their transfer policy buying players like Dembele and Vidal. I don't think Pogba would look out of place under the current Barcelona set up. Maybe in 2011 yes but now all teams play direct and risky football.
 
JPRouve said:
You see this isn't true. Pogba doesn't track back faster for France which is sometimes infuriating. The difference is that France are better at containing counter attacks which allows Pogba and Mbappé in particular to reposition themselves without the opponents being able to make any sort of damage, Pogba also plays from a deeper position and will often not be in a position to track back but part of the containment phase.
What you seem to think about Pogba and France is exactly why people in France aren't sold about Pogba and why he is not good when played higher, his tactical awareness is dubious.
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Yep, France can contain counters better, here when Matic struggles United struggle in holding the play and that has been a big problem as pogba is very slow to track back and this is precisely I think Pogba would have annoyed Jose with his comments specially what happened after spurs brjghton and wolves game where our midfield control looked minimum and central defense is leaky.
 
EB100 said:
I’m sorry, it doesn’t work like that in real life. Even bosses of ordinary working people have to respect their employees or risk a backlash. Again, it’s not just Pogba or these United players. Mourinho has fallen out with previous players before and previous clubs.

Mourinho defended Pogba in the beginning, yes! But he humiliated others and soon turned on Pogba himself. His post World Cup comments may seem innocuous to you because you’re not in the situation and are looking at them in a vacuum, but I can see how Pogba would have interpreted them as an unacceptable attack on himself that he needed to respond to. Mourinho was essentially tellin United fans that Pogba gives his all for France but not for United - is that fair? If Pogba thinks there’s issues at United that prevent him from being happy and performing at his best (like his managers on and off the field approach), shouldn’t he have the right to defend himself from that public attack? The moment Mourinho decides to air his grievances publicly, he sets the tone and the example! If he has a problem with Pogba, he should tell him privately.

This would all be excusable if we were out there playing well and winning trophies and it was one or two players. But we’re playing crap and Mourinho’s list of beef is growing. He cannot even spare Ed Woodward. If he doesn’t like Ed Woodward’s transfer work, why doesn’t he confront him to his face? Why publicly? Why make Woodward look like a shit transfer dealer to the world? And if he thinks it’s well within his rights to constantly question Woodward’s work publicly, why is he so upset when Pogba does it to him once? He wants to be the only one at United free to frame public opinion about himself and others?
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Don't tell me you feel sorry for Woodward now, too!?

What Mourinho has or hasn't said about Shaw or whoever else in the squad is irrelevant, unless you think Pogba is fighting their battles for them here? Shaw has had far more public criticism from Mourinho than Pogba has. For all his fitness/weight problems, he has at least kept his gob mostly shut, knuckled down and played his way, finally, back in to contention. What has or hasn't happened at other clubs is also, obviously, immaterial. There's no evidence that Mourinho has lost the United dressingroom, or anything like it.

What Pogba should have taken from Mourinho's World Cup comments is, "I need to work a bit harder to satisfy my boss at club level." What he actually took from it... frankly who cares? Whatever it was, it certainly doesn't give him the justification to come out with the kind of shite we've seen in the last few weeks. Mourinho might be a miserable ass sometimes (or possibly all the time) but you simply cannot have players publicly undermining the manager in that way.
 
I have to think the players will side with Pogba over Mourinho, who has not been a good leader for them. Whether it's the way he's criticized them, antagonized them, trashed them in Luke Shaw and Martial's case, his whole man-management, including the inclusion of Sanchez has been absolutely dreadful. If anyone actually believes Mourinho is gaining control of the dressing room by going against one of his best and more popular player who basically said what they're all thinking, including the fans, I think they'll be surprised over the next few weeks. I can't help but feel Mourinho will implode this dressing room and then get sacked regardless, with or without Pogba still in the team. The fact that they go out there every game and look completely clueless to me is a bigger sign than anything coming out of the media that they are tuning out Mourinho, he has already lost them IMO and I feel he will continue to lose them more with this Pogba episode.

I can't see how the situation improves from here on out, even if they get rid of Pogba it will only make this team far worse than it already is, with more pressure on Mourinho and less scapegoats in the absence of Pogba. It's going to be a spectacle, and I'm legitimately sorry that a club like United is going through that, but it's pretty fascinating to follow.
 
Sayros said:
I have to think the players will side with Pogba over Mourinho, who has not been a good leader for them. Whether it's the way he's criticized them, antagonized them, trashed them in Luke Shaw and Martial's case, his whole man-management, including the inclusion of Sanchez has been absolutely dreadful. If anyone actually believes Mourinho is gaining control of the dressing room by going against one of his best and more popular player who basically said what they're all thinking, including the fans, I think they'll be surprised over the next few weeks. I can't help but feel Mourinho will implode this dressing room and then get sacked regardless, with or without Pogba still in the team. The fact that they go out there every game and look completely clueless to me is a bigger sign than anything coming out of the media that they are tuning out Mourinho, he has already lost them IMO and I feel he will continue to lose them more with this Pogba episode.

I can't see how the situation improves from here on out, even if they get rid of Pogba it will only make this team far worse than it already is, with more pressure on Mourinho and less scapegoats in the absence of Pogba. It's going to be a spectacle, and I'm legitimately sorry that a club like United is going through that, but it's pretty fascinating to follow.
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But this makes Pogba seem like he's a dressing room leader/someone to admire.
Believe you me, even if Jose goes due to the players siding with Pogba - there'll be another man throwing them all uner the bus by June 2019.

Paul Pogba himself, when he declares a player of his calibre deserves better players around him and that's why he's moving to a real world-class club in Barcelona.
 
Alabaster Codify7 said:
But this makes Pogba seem like he's a dressing room leader/someone to admire.
Believe you me, even if Jose goes due to the players siding with Pogba - there'll be another man throwing them all uner the bus by June 2019.

Paul Pogba himself, when he declares a player of his calibre deserves better players around him and that's why he's moving to a real world-class club in Barcelona.
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I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. What makes you believe another manager would be throwing his players under the bus? It's not just about Mourinho blaming them for everything, it's also him never taking any responsibilities. It's a sign of weak leadership that no one would respond well to. Now, I don't know how he is with the players behind closed doors, but even if in private he takes some of the blame, the fact that he won't do it for the cameras will never play well with the team. I don't believe that a manager like Zidane, for example, would throw his players under the bus and at times abuse them like Mourinho has done with a few of them (that being said, I don't want Zidane here...just using his personality as an example).

Also, when did Pogba ever say that he deserves better players around him? That's just made up. He's talking about movement in attack, not about personnel.
 
Infra-red said:
Don't tell me you feel sorry for Woodward now, too!?

What Mourinho has or hasn't said about Shaw or whoever else in the squad is irrelevant, unless you think Pogba is fighting their battles for them here? Shaw has had far more public criticism from Mourinho than Pogba has. For all his fitness/weight problems, he has at least kept his gob mostly shut, knuckled down and played his way, finally, back in to contention. What has or hasn't happened at other clubs is also, obviously, immaterial. There's no evidence that Mourinho has lost the United dressingroom, or anything like it.

What Pogba should have taken from Mourinho's World Cup comments is, "I need to work a bit harder to satisfy my boss at club level." What he actually took from it... frankly who cares? Whatever it was, it certainly doesn't give him the justification to come out with the kind of shite we've seen in the last few weeks. Mourinho might be a miserable ass sometimes (or possibly all the time) but you simply cannot have players publicly undermining the manager in that way.
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No evidence Mourinho has lost some in the dressing room?

http://www.espn.com/soccer/manchest...gry-and-frustrated-with-jose-mourinho-sources

If you think Jose behavior is “immaterial” and his history says nothing, you may be in for a surprise this season!

By the time Jose left Chelsea, Hazard and co. were losing almost every game. After he left, they started winning.
 
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