Lukaku has done well for thus far. 27 goals or something last season. 4 already this season. In a team struggling to create. That's quite good I think
Mourinho tells Paul Pogba he'll never captain Manchester United again
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Lukaku has done well for thus far. 27 goals or something last season. 4 already this season. In a team struggling to create. That's quite good I think
When we sift through all the crap of who did what to whom and who is at fault when the dust settles on the season and if our progress has stalled under Jose than this is probably the logical approach from the clubs perspective.
I totally agree, I also think that it's not necessarily the right time to sell Pogba, we need to identify solid replacements and let a potential buyer mature a little bit, knee-jerk sales are the worst things.
Like having played "semi serious adult level" football makes any difference
This whole "Pogba Club", "FC Martial", "Jose this and that" needs to stop, it's like a 13 year old boy discovering master suppression techniques for the first time and think it's the best thing ever. It's getting tedious as feck
In relation to this case, it's handed badly from all parties. Not sure i understand the references to other managers, even bringing Fergie into this. Part of the equation is that this isn't anything new, it's generally viewed as a part of having Jose as the manager, he's known for falling out with players..It's hardly a surprise that this is something that effects the way people think about the situation we're in. A large amount of people, rightly or not, will believe that Mourinho is a large part of the problem, simply because he has a habit of getting into these type of situations. Doesn't mean it's right, doesn't mean it's wrong.
Pogba at United was always going to be a short term solution, pretty clear from the start that they'd be looking at making a ton of money by changing clubs 3-4 seasons down the road, just a bit of a shame that we've been completely unable to take advantage of having him here.
I clarified that i think its hardly essential to grasping the dynamics of a squad but it certainly helps. The undermining of a manager that can be achieved by one bad egg is huge ive seen it many times first hand. Training gets affected, off pitch atmosphere does and without fail performance when it counts suffers. My point is most people who understand that can see that no matter what has been said or done (with the odd extreme exception) no players should ever engage with the media as carelessly as he has repeatedly done. Simple
The issue is that unless you are in the locker room, you have no idea about who is a bad egg and who isn't. I don't like the fact that he is having pressers every other weeks, ideally I would like to see things kept in-house but we need to keep in mind that if there is a legitimate issue and that the issue is known and not dealt with then players only option is to go public. That's why context is very important and why while we should all agree that it's not good to vent to the press, it's often a symptom of other issues not the cause. Someone needs to fix the cause, if it's because Pogba wants out then sell him, if it's because Mourinho is doing a bad job then fix it but do not sweep it under the carpet playing. The moral card won't fix anything.
Not claimimg to know a thing i couldnt. The stuff we can all see ourselves is truly unacceptable not to mentiom his performance level
Jamie Carragher hit the nail on the head 100% here.. agree with all of this.
Even if jose goes its still gonna be the same Pogba. & ive been saying the same about how he would fit in at Barca
https://www.skysports.com/football/...e-mourinho-situation-jamie-carraghers-verdict
Even if jose goes its still gonna be the same Pogba. & ive been saying the same about how he would fit in at Barca
https://www.skysports.com/football/...e-mourinho-situation-jamie-carraghers-verdict
The issue is that what we see is without context, so no it's not truly unacceptable, it could be truly unacceptable if you actually have the context though, at this point it's unpalatable at the worst. And his performances are the best from our playing staff, so on the field he isn't a bad egg, he is an asset.
People should remember how players magically found the courage to speak about LVG when he left while they were supportive during almost his entire tenure. A lot of players/people have the bad habit of being two faced. At some point we will have a better idea about the context but today we really shouldn't make definitive statements about bad eggs.
Cantona is the perfect example of why context is crucial, he has clashed with every single manager that he has had at the exception of SAF, he has disrespected every single clubs at the exception of United. And the difference was simply the context at United.
If all Pogba wants to do is play for himself and has no discipline, how does that explain his performances at Juve and at the World Cup?
He's been awful.
I disagree totally that Pogba couldn't play for Barcelona. They don't play the tiki taka football they did under Pep which relied more on tactical discipline. They play a more direct style of football nowadays and bought players like Dembele and Vidal to fit that style.
Hasn't Pogba like won equal amount of things Mourinho has won at United? just asking
No shit. Pogba hasn't shown an ounce of the consistency and drive Beckham gave to us week in, week out.
Most recent misconception Under Fergie that we played 'beautiful' football all the time. No we didnt!
And tbf to Mourinho in his 2 years with us he has won a couple of 'things'
Actually the end part about players helping themselves and not making excuses for positions & playing styles etc.. i didnt 100% agree with that. Pogba def benefited from that at Juve with the playing style and Pirlo/Marchiso.
But I dont agree that he was all that at the world cup. He played pretty decent in the latter games, but still no world beater. Mbappe was stealing the show for france. In fact i remember france's first few games Pogba was pretty much a passenger.
Actually I don't think his performances at Juve and France are much different than us... The difference is that both teams had/have absolute quality around him. Pirlo/Vidal at Juve, Kante at France. Even Drinkwater looked class playing alongside Kante... I mean we all know Pogba has 0 discipline and is usually playing for himself, nothing we didn't know before really. We have 2 massive egos at the club in Pogba and Jose and you can clearly see what they are trying to do. No chance we will see both here next season, I think we will see none.
And still Pogba was the one who was involved in all goals in group stages. His pass to Griezmann led to penalty, he forced own goal to win against Australia 2-1. He won the ball back in the final third which led to 1-0 win in second game. He didn't play third game and that was the only game France didn't win in the world cup.
Mbappe stealing the show doesn't mean Pogba wasn't good at what he did. He won most duels than anyone in KO stages.
He had Kante to cover his lazy ass.
The cheek of him, playing well with quality teammates around him.
So, what's the leak today? What have Pogba/Mourinho done today then?
I never said he wasn't good. He is good when he is in the mood of playing for the team. However when he is not, he is dragging the team down doing stupid rabonas all over the pitch.
Pogba wasn't the main man like he was expected to be at United. Neither Juventus nor France were built around him. United afforded him an opportunity to become the focal point of the side.
Thats the difference.
Or when he isn't playing well, his teammates are not good enough to carry the team.
He wasn't selfish and indisciplined at the World Cup. He performed very capably and followed the coach's instructions. Maybe we ought to try to replicate the absolute quality that brings out the best in him, rather than rely on him to do everything. I mean, why doesn't Carragher have a go at Sanchez for not performing?
Bet you didn't watch the final.
So we've learned that he isn't able to carry a crap side on his own. Maybe replace the ones that are crap, share the responsibility around a bit more?
World Cup is a completely different stage, not sure why do we even compare it with club season. I am sure he would be fine playing at CB if it meant winning it. Even France's style of play was fine for him although it was maybe even more negative than ours.
I don't believe it's acceptable for players to criticise their manager/his tactics in public, no matter what the context. It is also unthinkable that Manchester United would ever back an individual player in a dispute with the manager (again, regardless of the context).
Pogba, one assumes, is fully cognisant of all of this - in fact it's quite possible that he's counting on it. He wants out, has wanted out for months now, and is quickly making his position at the club untenable, in order to facilitate his exit.
You're right. If it had been another manager, I think the reactions would have been different. Some are blinded by their hatred for Mourinho that they can't even think beyond that.
Pogba has done nothing for the club to justify neither his attitude and quotes from start of season nor the massive defense for him. Mourinho didn't warant a defense for him with the poor results and tactics, but neither is Pogba.
Indeed, I cant believe under the right manager Pogba wouldn't flourish
What I do agree with Carragher though is Pogba worth the effort? We're not talking Ronaldo here
Carragher's argument is just an angry rant about how he doesn't think Pogba is that good therefore we have to choose Mourinho over him.
It's a dumb premise filled with nonsensical points about how Pogba sucks because other people, not Pogba, say that Pogba should be given freedom on the pitch.
It's a dumb premise filled with nonsensical points about how Pogba sucks because other people, not Pogba, say that Pogba should be given freedom on the pitch.
I think you and i have different thresholds of when its acceptable for a player to behave like pogba has thats all. After a tough summer for the club we started the campaign with a win that gave glimpses of reasons for optimism.
Pogba (who mourinho made captain after whatever summer jibes there were)came out after and dropped a ton of fuel on the fire with his 'ill be fined' attention seeking. It put himself above the team, fans and staff and in a heartbeat killed any positive narrative. Its been a circus since and did pogba learn anything? Hes gotten worse. Simply cant shut up. Its player power at its worst.
Like i said already he had several better options and in any case i think only extreme reasons justify a player behaving that way.
Don't forget that you'd never, ever, get Carragher to say that Mourinho is at fault and has to be replaced. For some reason they all find it much easier to blame the players rather than managers.
United have clearly made a mistake in expecting Pogba to be that person, at least we can agree on that. I think that Jose sees this two and has reacted to it. Hes signed Matic and Fred to help spread the work load for Pogba and give him that freedom to "do Cruyff turns on the half way line." Pogba is not ready to carry the weight of expectation of a club like United. Hes absolutely not ready to captain a club like this, where he needs to be the example, the leader. And Mourinho is right to strip him of such a role. Pogbas reaction will be telling to Mourinho as well. How he conducts himself in the near future will tell us and Jose if he was right. So far it appears he may well have been.
Pogbas talent isnt in debate here, him mentality is. Its been put to the test, and well, hes failing thus far.
Imo if Mourinho really wanted to change his ways and be more collegial for a proper peace in the house, what's with cryptic post WC messages?
Wasn't it just easier for him to have congratulated his star player on his success instead of trying some 4D chess move in public to get him to perform better in his tumescent system?
I mean either way it reflects poorly on Mourinho if after 2 years of working with Pogba he hasn't get to know him that well to anticipate that move would backfire or simply isn't worth the risk.
Wasn't it just easier for him to have congratulated his star player on his success instead of trying some 4D chess move in public to get him to perform better in his tumescent system?
I mean either way it reflects poorly on Mourinho if after 2 years of working with Pogba he hasn't get to know him that well to anticipate that move would backfire or simply isn't worth the risk.
The world cup argument generates more problems and doesn't solve it. It showed that he's willing to play a desciblined and defensive role for his national team while he's bitching about attacking here, losing the ball in center of field and not bothering tracking back. It shows he doesn't care for United as much as national team when it comes to applying roles.
No you can't suggest that everyone will tell you he's the second coming and can't be criticised.
Personally I want to get shot of him whatever happens with the manager.
If this was the first player Jose had ever fallen out with and if Pogba has previous of playing regularly and still wanting out (using media manipulation) then you could see why Jose is not to blame for this current situation and Pogba should be sold immediately.
As it is Jose has fallen out with a plethora of star players including his so called soldiers including John Terry. Only at clubs where he left in state of triumph will you find zero players who didn’t stab him in the back. He’s fallen out with the uber professional Ronaldo, Ramos and quite a loyal guy in Hazard who has arguably overstayed at Chelsea despite being offered riches elsewhere. Even someone like Pepe eventually stuck the knife in him.
Right now if it was just Pogba who had stopped working hard for him I would understand it but a significant portion of the team seems to play within itself - see Lukaku as a prime example or Sanchez at the moment. When he stripped the captaincy off Pogba that was a chance for the players to really back the manager and put in a strong performance vs Derby but I don’t think they want him around much longer. Against Wolves all this sign of a new approach dissipated as soon as we conceded one goal - we just went into hoofball mode after that.
Pogba may turn out to be a selfish idiot who even if Jose goes - he’ll still want out as it may be too much of an effort and time consuming to be part of bringing the club back on its feet as a footballing giant. But - there is also the possibility that the change of management will be enough to stop this current pattern of behaviour, get all the players back on side and we enter a more positive direction again. We have nothing to lose with backing Pogba here - we can always just sell him if he doesn’t wind his neck in and he’s just one player.
Backing the manager risks alienating a squad of players and I can’t imagine any elite players wanting to join if he is still the manager. We will attract mercenaries or desperate players, but we won’t ever be in the ring for Mbappe etc.
As it is Jose has fallen out with a plethora of star players including his so called soldiers including John Terry. Only at clubs where he left in state of triumph will you find zero players who didn’t stab him in the back. He’s fallen out with the uber professional Ronaldo, Ramos and quite a loyal guy in Hazard who has arguably overstayed at Chelsea despite being offered riches elsewhere. Even someone like Pepe eventually stuck the knife in him.
Right now if it was just Pogba who had stopped working hard for him I would understand it but a significant portion of the team seems to play within itself - see Lukaku as a prime example or Sanchez at the moment. When he stripped the captaincy off Pogba that was a chance for the players to really back the manager and put in a strong performance vs Derby but I don’t think they want him around much longer. Against Wolves all this sign of a new approach dissipated as soon as we conceded one goal - we just went into hoofball mode after that.
Pogba may turn out to be a selfish idiot who even if Jose goes - he’ll still want out as it may be too much of an effort and time consuming to be part of bringing the club back on its feet as a footballing giant. But - there is also the possibility that the change of management will be enough to stop this current pattern of behaviour, get all the players back on side and we enter a more positive direction again. We have nothing to lose with backing Pogba here - we can always just sell him if he doesn’t wind his neck in and he’s just one player.
Backing the manager risks alienating a squad of players and I can’t imagine any elite players wanting to join if he is still the manager. We will attract mercenaries or desperate players, but we won’t ever be in the ring for Mbappe etc.
True. Can't understand how people can't see the difference between his behavior at the World Cup compared to club level.
No stupid hair cuts, limited (if at all) social media.
Compare it to his behavior at the club.
You don't have to back anyone and it's definitely not the first thing that you do. The first step is to know what is actually happening, why it's actually happening from that point you can say what is truly unacceptable. The reason I tell you that is because I have seen it at professional level in Rugby, I knew people inside the MHR and they would tell me things about Galthier that the press never shared, he was rude to everyone from the receptionist to the players, he was late all the time and would never take any sort of responsibility, all of that was behind the scene so when people started to hear about players unrest they turned against them not knowing what was actually happening.
Funnily enough, people only started to talk about it when he did the same thing in the next club, for years he was supposed to be the victim of the players and the owner.
So what I'm saying is fairly simple, if Pogba has no good reason for his comment then you can be as harsh as you want, if he has a good reason you can punish him, with a fine for example, but also understand and acknowledge the context. What you can't do is act as if context was irrelevant, that's bad management. I will insist on this, I'm not choosing sides I don't care who is right or wrong, I just want the actual issue to be fixed appropriately.
He isn't bitching about attacking here. He like gazillion others wants the team to attack. Agree about his indiscipline. But the problem is throughout the team. But only he spoke up.
Carragher is ex Liverpool player and he's not that stupid.
He's well aware we're falling apart under Mourinho, whilst his Liverpool is thriving and it's feeding his soul. Not like the cnut hates us.
We can sell our star player but we will still be playing this awful football under Mourinho and things will only get worse before they get better from the looks of it.
Now on the off chance of us getting a proper attacking manager that can get the best out of Pogba and the team, then we would actually pose a threat to Liverpool and City, something I bet Carragher wouldn't be too fond of.
One thing is certain, he's enjoying all of this.