And that doesnt prove that he's good tactically?
Mourinho | New old Chelsea manager
- Thread starter Suedesi
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And that doesnt prove that he's good tactically?
He can keep his on and off the field theatrics as far away as possible from O.T hopefully.He's a great coach but I'd never want him at United
I don't question his ability to beat these teams with an English team, I just don't think it's a fair assumption that Fergie would know how to coach a team with a bigger focus on the technical side in a league where that is so important, as he's never really championed that idea himself, maybe by choice, maybe by limitations - that much is debatable for sure.
Because IMO United should have almost closed that gulf and become a club that champions the technical side of football a bit more, like Arsenal, but hasn't done so with all the means to do so, that's why I don't see why Fergie could do so well in a league where it's more important. That's on the assumption that he's not doing it at United out of limitations rather than choice. Just because of his age and the football culture he is from, I think it's more out of limitations in my honest opinion.
Just before someone says that Arsenal didn't win anything - that is irrelevant, there is more to winning than just your football philosophy of course, just because Arsenal have something right doesn't mean it's all or nothing, equally so just because I don't think Fergie can do everything, he obviously has everything needed to win trophies and I don't need to echo that.
I think that's a very good point, of course that is if we're talking in the context of directly comparing Mourinho with Fergie, I think it's likely Fergie would have had success with the same squads, as you say the players are there and Fergie can get them winning, what about at a team like Porto though? A team that needs carefully assembling specifically for a technical approach both domestically and in Europe? That can't go ignored. That's not to say Fergie couldn't do it, but actually doing it shows more than being expected to be able to do it.
Well, it goes both ways.. something tells me our record against Spanish teams isn't that good? Maybe I am wrong there, but my point is there is bad where there is good... it's pretty common practice on here to back up a point with a success story in the past, but if I were to bring up Basel and how the team looked awful and dated it would be pretty selective of me don't you think?
Would make sense for all parties involved.
FA to move for Jose Mourinho to replace Fabio Capello? - ESPN Soccernet
FA to move for Jose Mourinho to replace Fabio Capello? - ESPN Soccernet
My home town is Aberdeen, first game I watched them play in was in 1970. Ive been following Fergie since he joined Aberdeen and Ive been following Utd since 1967, that was the first time I saw them play.
Utd have always played with a sense of verve and flair, there have been brief periods when Utd hasn't, under Dave Sexton being a clear example.
I watched Aberdeen play under Fergie with a sense of style, flair and attacking commitment. Aberdeen during the period they broke up the old firm did it by being the most attacking attractive side in the league with a disciplined and mature approach to defending.
I was delighted when Utd nabbed Fergie, not because he was my home town coach but because I knew he would continue Utds swashbuckling approach to playing.
Tactically I have seen him out think Real Madrid with Aberdeen, vary things to suit all manner of situations and adapt and use many different styles and formations. I have watched him chase down leading teams in the league when 10 or more points behind and win titles.
He has used a variety of players with certain playing styles and matched the supporting team around those players. The support play and style when we had Cole and Yorke compared with when we used Ruud up front being an example, there are tons more.
Ive watched him change and adapt to the needs of the Champions League and Ive watched him a few days later change and adapt to a league match away to West Brom on a wet freezing winter night.
He gave Ronaldo the freedom to play his natural game and that freedom helped develop Ronaldo into one of the best players in the world. In giving Ronaldo that freedom he had to set up the team around him to enable that. He stated in an interview that he didn't want Ronaldo to be involved with any defensive duties. To do that the rest of the team had to be tactically aware of what they had to do when covering for Ronaldos lack of defensive duties whilst operating out of a midfield position.
I could go on for ages with examples of Fergie getting things right.
In terms of a football philosophy Fergie has always where possible tried to play attractive attacking football and allow gifted and skillful individuals to flourish.
Any idea that Fergie is tactically weak or naive is just utterly moronic.
There will be games where he gets things wrong but his long term record and history of tactical changes far outweighs the odd blip.The percentage of games where he got it tactically wrong will be tiny t when compared to what he has got right.
Utd have always played with a sense of verve and flair, there have been brief periods when Utd hasn't, under Dave Sexton being a clear example.
I watched Aberdeen play under Fergie with a sense of style, flair and attacking commitment. Aberdeen during the period they broke up the old firm did it by being the most attacking attractive side in the league with a disciplined and mature approach to defending.
I was delighted when Utd nabbed Fergie, not because he was my home town coach but because I knew he would continue Utds swashbuckling approach to playing.
Tactically I have seen him out think Real Madrid with Aberdeen, vary things to suit all manner of situations and adapt and use many different styles and formations. I have watched him chase down leading teams in the league when 10 or more points behind and win titles.
He has used a variety of players with certain playing styles and matched the supporting team around those players. The support play and style when we had Cole and Yorke compared with when we used Ruud up front being an example, there are tons more.
Ive watched him change and adapt to the needs of the Champions League and Ive watched him a few days later change and adapt to a league match away to West Brom on a wet freezing winter night.
He gave Ronaldo the freedom to play his natural game and that freedom helped develop Ronaldo into one of the best players in the world. In giving Ronaldo that freedom he had to set up the team around him to enable that. He stated in an interview that he didn't want Ronaldo to be involved with any defensive duties. To do that the rest of the team had to be tactically aware of what they had to do when covering for Ronaldos lack of defensive duties whilst operating out of a midfield position.
I could go on for ages with examples of Fergie getting things right.
In terms of a football philosophy Fergie has always where possible tried to play attractive attacking football and allow gifted and skillful individuals to flourish.
Any idea that Fergie is tactically weak or naive is just utterly moronic.
There will be games where he gets things wrong but his long term record and history of tactical changes far outweighs the odd blip.The percentage of games where he got it tactically wrong will be tiny t when compared to what he has got right.
SAF does what is required to beat teams mate. we play with quite a few different variations against different teams. our style when we play arsenal for example is very different from when we play chelsea even though both are top sides. am totally fine with our style not being continental, the english game doesnt require that. we win doing what we do and am more than happy to see things the way they are.
In england, the game needs to be fast and effective imo. that is what united do. arsenal, as you said, are a more continental side but their lack of success should vindicate SAFs approach if anything. There's nothing to suggest that if SAF was Real's manager, he'd play the way he does here.
Would you doubt guardiola's credentials as a manager just because he's never shown he can win while playing the english way? No. thats because he's proved himself at where he is and to criticise him as being incapable of doing a job based on assumptions because he hasnt even got a shot at it is wrong imo. The same goes for SAF. none of us know how he'd approach a game as the manager of a spanish side. i for one, dont think it'd be the same as united. knowing him, he's adapted a lot. he's changed over the years regarding his approach, its naive imo to think that he'd remain stubborn and refuse to adapt to a new philosophy.
regarding what mourinho did with porto, it was a brilliant achievement and i doubt SAF would be able to accomplish that. that said, i dont think mourinho would himself be able to replicate it either. Just like the greece win in the euros. it was a one off. they got a few lucky breaks did porto and won the thing. brilliant no doubt but a one off.
Top post. I think this misconception about SAF being all heart and blood with very less tactical nous is really weird considering our recent success both in the league and in the CL. he has adapted and changed to meet varying needs.
Good post.
Laughable stuff. Almost a love letter to Mourinho:
Premier League has missed Real Madrid coach Jose Mourinho's wow factor - Telegraph
Premier League has missed Real Madrid coach Jose Mourinho's wow factor - Telegraph
Hunter reckons his most likely destination would be Chelsea.
TalkShite reakon Mourinho to Arsenal, and Wenger to Madrid.
Fallas coming up in a month, and noticed this in Marca.
Fallas coming up in a month, and noticed this in Marca.
Looks more like Mr Bean. How big is it? Aren't they normally massive things, won't be much of a burning.
It's probably only part of one. Some of them are massive, some not, and each massive one also has an accompanying small one for the children. Each borough of the town normally has one, some are far more spectacular than others. That one looks well made, so I assume that it's a small part of a much larger falla.
Guillem Ballsack is saying that Mourinho will now stay at Real.
Mourinho has given the players their preseason plans, looks like he's staying.
When did he go white on top?
Noticed that too a couple of weeks ago. I suppose being the manager of Real does that to you, like the US presidents who go into office with their hair colour intact and come out of it grey-haired.When did he go white on top?
Surprised to see that it looks like he's going to stay. Maybe this suggests though that he's holding out for a certain job that he may or may not be interested in over the next few years?
Anyway, it's not guaranteed yet. If Barcelona make a comeback and win the league title, and Real Madrid fail to win the league title, then the board will probably punt him anyway, despite his reputation as a manager.
Anyway, it's not guaranteed yet. If Barcelona make a comeback and win the league title, and Real Madrid fail to win the league title, then the board will probably punt him anyway, despite his reputation as a manager.
Or if Barca knock them out the champions league as the league is as good as over.
Even if Madrid fail to win the European Cup, which is actually a big if as Barcelona are not playing with the authority that they were 12 months ago and a lot of their first XI are carrying knocks and niggles, I don't think Mourinho will lose his job. The quotes coming out of the club recently would suggest that if anyone is going to end the relationship its Jose himself. Florentino has given Jose everything he's wanted e.g. firing Valdano and has continually tolerated his flights of fancy because he believes in him. Mourinho will be safe unless Perez looses faith in "El Proyecto"...
...but why would he?
Real Madrid have become a winning machine. Last season they were good but not great. This season however they have literally carpeted everyone in front of them besides Barcelona. Their goalscoring tally has been unreal and they are actually on course, as things stand, to rack up the highest points tally in one season of any team in the history of La Liga. They are literally stomping everyone else in Spain under their boots. Mourinho has turned Madrid into a fast, fierce, attacking side that slices through teams with direct well drilled attacks. What he's created is something special and he's done it so fast. OK its taken a lot of money its true but only last summer we were all sat here wondering whether anyone could beat this Barcelona to any trophy over two legs or the course of a season. We all sat here convinced that no team could ultimately resist Barcelona's relentless passing on their day and certainly not enough teams could do it over the course of a season to stop them from winning another title.
How times change.
Mourinho's done brilliantly have gone to Spain and within one year taken his team very close to becoming champions ahead of one of the greatest teams of all time. I was beginning to doubt it in his first season there but he's responded superbly. It has taken a lot of spending but any manager would have to, to even get close to Barcelona.
To be fair that has a lot to do with Barcelona's terrible league form just as much as any improvement he's brought to Madrid, 99 times out of 100 Barca wouldn't have dropped the points they have done.
To compare to last year after the 23 games Barca had 62 points, so were one ahead of Madrid are now. Like I say, I wouldnt say he deserves as much credit as you're giving him because Barca have effectively handed him the title this year, in any other season this wouldnt have happened and the league would be far closer. Also, as weve seen from the Classico's, he's still not any closer to figuring out how to beat Barca, Madrid are still by far the inferior team, regardless of what the league table shows.
To compare to last year after the 23 games Barca had 62 points, so were one ahead of Madrid are now. Like I say, I wouldnt say he deserves as much credit as you're giving him because Barca have effectively handed him the title this year, in any other season this wouldnt have happened and the league would be far closer. Also, as weve seen from the Classico's, he's still not any closer to figuring out how to beat Barca, Madrid are still by far the inferior team, regardless of what the league table shows.
You may like him or not but you have to give him credit for bringing success to the clubs he worked with on a constant bsis. He normally needs a max of two seasons to deliver and of course he made Real a better team until now. I see them winning not only the league but the CL too. Imo Mourinho would be the ideal successor of SAF as he is strong enough (maybe the only one in football) to handle it.
I think it is more to do with Barca really not caring as much than R.Madrid improving. Like Theon has pointed out last season at the same stage Barca were ahead of them.
Every time R.Madrid seem to play Barca, even Barca don't play well I still fancy them to win or get a draw, I just don't their players want it as much whereas Mourinho and his team want it more than anything and it shows.
Probably one of the most important facets of management.
Club's with those budgets will always have brilliant players.
They key for the manager is keeping them hungry and motivated.
But Mourinho actually isn't proven in that regard. He is always hopping from one club to another and hasn't stayed at a club long enough to show he can keep players motivated after winning everything.
He manages them at their peaks and fecks off right after. There is one club he somewhat managed to do that-Chelsea-and guess what? He was outclassed in the league by SAF's brilliant team lead by Rooney and Ronaldo just two years after he inherited (and added to) the most expensively assembled side in British football history (at the time). He then fecks off just after that when faced with a real challenge.
This is why to me he will always inferior to a manager like SAF until he takes on that challenge. With the overwhelming amount of quality players and money he had at his disposal , it would have been a monumental failure if he failed to win at least one trophy per year with all the teams he has managed.
He manages them at their peaks and fecks off right after. There is one club he somewhat managed to do that-Chelsea-and guess what? He was outclassed in the league by SAF's brilliant team lead by Rooney and Ronaldo just two years after he inherited (and added to) the most expensively assembled side in British football history (at the time). He then fecks off just after that when faced with a real challenge.
This is why to me he will always inferior to a manager like SAF until he takes on that challenge. With the overwhelming amount of quality players and money he had at his disposal , it would have been a monumental failure if he failed to win at least one trophy per year with all the teams he has managed.
The coaching staff at Barca have failed to keep the players fresh the whole season; most of them are completely burned out from competing for and winning so many competitions. As a result Real with their larger squad are going to win the league by default, nobody really thinks they are a better side than Barca do they?
That's some really flawed logic. So one of the greatest teams of all time would have, in their best season to date, been a point ahead of Madrid? Yeah, that totally means Madrid haven't been great.
I don't see the point in your arguments. He's taken Real within ONE season to being TEN points ahead of one of the greatest teams of all time. That's a huge achievement IMO. And Barca most definitely do 'care'. You don't become champions and a great team by not caring about your most bitter rivals beating you to the title. Barca have been sloppy, that is true. But some of that might also be down to having competition that's become an extremely ruthless winning machine.
And no team that's 10 (or is it 13) points ahead of another is vastly superior. It doesn't work that way I'm afraid. Barca have a much higher ceiling obviously as they have shown in recent years. But if Madrid end up with La Liga and Barca with just a cup that isn't the champions league, the latter has no business being called as a vastly superior team. You actually have to achieve it on the pitch rather than hold up past achievements. That would be like us losing the league to City and claiming we're better than them due to our past record in the league.
I agree and I think Barca could do with 2 or 3 more players to freshen things up because I think the current lot have just won so much they really can't be arsed anymore.
As for Mourinho if he wins the title I guarantee he will out this summer to keep his image up, people forget how he left Chelsea and how during his time there Arsenal & Man utd were going through big changes. Likewise in Italy took over a winning side with Juve gone and AC Milan a finished side.
I do rate him and he is a fantastic manager but the way people on here go on about him is well over the top.
As for Mourinho if he wins the title I guarantee he will out this summer to keep his image up, people forget how he left Chelsea and how during his time there Arsenal & Man utd were going through big changes. Likewise in Italy took over a winning side with Juve gone and AC Milan a finished side.
I do rate him and he is a fantastic manager but the way people on here go on about him is well over the top.
Barca's motivation is gone, technically speaking this side should be better than last seasons but their performances suggest otherwise. Of course Barca want to win the title nobody is suggesting otherwise but they aren't putting in the effort and work rate they were in previous seasons.
Of course if R.Madrid win the league they will be the better side, will be interesting to see their points tally because from memory since Mourinho has come in there hasn't been a huge jump since he took over from the previous manager.
That's basically my point.
Can anyone provide some stats for Real this season uptil now as compared to previous Madrid teams in recent years in the same number of games?
That's the thing, nothing has changed. They have always been a ruthless winning machine in La liga since Pellegrinni's Madrid. Madrid had their highest points total under him afterall.
Madrid were good enough to beat virtually every other team in La liga under pelegrinni. They won (31!) games, same as Barcelona that season, they essentially lost the league because they lost at home to Barcelona. The only factor that has changed this season is Barcelona's poor away form.
Subtsitute Barca's crap away form this season with the season Pellegrini was in charge and Madrid will also be about 10 points ahead.
The 10 point Gap has more to do with Barca's crap away form than any brilliance from Mourinho.The man has a 1 in 10 win record against Barcelona, no matter how you look it at, its a laughable record and he shouldn't be hailed as the best thing since sliced bread for steam rolling teams with 20 times less budget.
Barcelona's plaudits as being one of the all time greats come from the way they dominate big teams and their champions league exploits over the past 3 years, not because of league exploits that most people on here ironically call a sunny SPL (which is nonsense by the way).
Madrid were good enough to beat virtually every other team in La liga under pelegrinni. They won (31!) games, same as Barcelona that season, they essentially lost the league because they lost at home to Barcelona. The only factor that has changed this season is Barcelona's poor away form.
Subtsitute Barca's crap away form this season with the season Pellegrini was in charge and Madrid will also be about 10 points ahead.
The 10 point Gap has more to do with Barca's crap away form than any brilliance from Mourinho.The man has a 1 in 10 win record against Barcelona, no matter how you look it at, its a laughable record and he shouldn't be hailed as the best thing since sliced bread for steam rolling teams with 20 times less budget.
Barcelona's plaudits as being one of the all time greats come from the way they dominate big teams and their champions league exploits over the past 3 years, not because of league exploits that most people on here ironically call a sunny SPL (which is nonsense by the way).
Exactly, one of the biggest facets of a great manager is how you manage to keep your team motivated after winning. He has NEVER done that anywhere. He simply jumps ship after that, He essentially ran away from the PL after SAF outclassed him, and will probably do the same in La liga.
I heard yesterday that Barca are 10 points worse off from the same point last season. 10 points....you can either claim that Mou has created a team as good as last year's Barca or...put the whole thing down to Barca's crap away form. IMO it's something in between. RM are a ruthless machine (credit to Mou) but they are also lucky with Barca being poor.
He won the Champions League with Inter ffs. What have Juve and Milan got to do with that? If you'd seen this Inter side since his departure then you would be left in no doubt about how big his achievements were. Hell, the Inter fans were even singing Mourinhos name just this weekend, along with Chelsea supporters. Everyone knows he's the ticket to success, and I can't think of many/any other players or managers that you can say that about.
Completely agree with this. Mourinho seems to have the Tevez disease. After a couple of years, he loses interest and gets itchy feet. New challenge? or getting out before it sours? No idea but that's his track record.
09/10 - 2.52ppg
11/12(so far) - 2.65ppg
2.65ppg wins them the league in 09/10 for the record. No improvement? Those are the unbelievable fine margins that wins stuff.
He also has them doing way better offensively too, almost jumping up a goal per game from 2.6 to 3.5 now while keeping the defence like for like.
11/12(so far) - 2.65ppg
2.65ppg wins them the league in 09/10 for the record. No improvement? Those are the unbelievable fine margins that wins stuff.
He also has them doing way better offensively too, almost jumping up a goal per game from 2.6 to 3.5 now while keeping the defence like for like.
Just checked that as well. They'd win the league on current form against the 2009/10 Barca team, which surely would be an achievement? Of course they won't actually manage to get a 100 points and they probably wouldn't care if their rivals are 10 points behind them, but I think the consistency they've shown has been very impressive. In the end Madrid wanted titles and so far it seems he's again on route to providing just that.
As much as i like Mou there is one crack on his image - he hardly ever gives youngster a chance. Can anyone name a player to whom Mou gave a chance? He always goes for proven players who cost shit loads of money.
complete bollocks
He gave Alen Stevanovic his Inter debut while trailing at home to lowly Siena, in a game that was putting his home record (8 years of invincibility) in jeopardy. Davide Santon got his debut and regular playing time during his tenure
He also made Carlos Alberto a stalwart in his Porto setup, and often names Raphael Varane, aged 18, in the starting lineup of Real Madrid's central defense