Mourinho and Man Utds conflicting interest

Arka_BleedingRed said:
Instant success is essential for Manchester United to get back to the top tier that we belonged to when Sir Alex was here. But, after his retirement, the club has taken a scattergun approach to deal with it, throwing money anywhere, and selecting 3 managers, who are all in stark contrast to one another. It has resulted in us buying some players suited to a particular style of play and when the manager changes, players who are unable to adapt are moved on, and new players are bought according to the new Manager's demands and so on.

This shows poor management and lack of long term vision of the club. Now compare us to well run clubs like Bayern, Barca, Dortmund even City nowadays who have developed a certain distinct style and invest in players and coaches who are suited to the club's system instead of simply throwing money any and every where.

There has been many examples where rich clubs became bankrupt because of their ineffective and incessant spending. After last season, I think the club is at a position where we need to start adhering to a similar policy, keeping not only the coach's demands but also the club's long term perspective in mind when purchasing players. Getting a Director of Football who is familiar with the club and it's runnings would be a good start. Giving all the power of transfer in the hands of a manager who may or may not be In here for the long haul can be a scary thing.
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I have seen this assertion made by several posters but for me this doesn't stand scrutiny at all , Dortmund playing style was quite different under Tuchel from Klopp's , you would be hard pressed to find similarities between Guardiola and Anchelotti as well. Luis Enrique tweaked Barcelona playing style as well and Barcelona had coaches with different style post Guardiola.

If Manchester city has been planning for Guardiola for a long time then they haven't done a good job at all as he needs to completely overhaul their playing personnel to execute his vision.These teams did well because they had better playing personnel than their rivals and that's what we have lacked once we correct that we would become force again.
 
He can sell everyone in the squad and youth team if it means the Treble.
 
José and Utd have exactly the same interests - winning trophies.

It really is that simple. There's no need to overthink it past that point.

José's goal is to win trophies and keep winning trophies, as is United's - and he's just bagged 2 in his first season.

Now it's the club's job to back him to the hilt in the transfer window.
 
Even short term success can give long term gains, momentum breads momentum. With winning comes better signings. Yes there is a cost, but SAF built on successful squads with one or two signings. A few experienced players will require the same, but certainly easier to attract the top growing stars with recent success.
 
andersj said:
Then what happened to Inter? Spending money like that is like pissing your pants when your cold..
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Rafael Benitez happened.

Also, having already won UCL (which was Morati's goal of his life), he decided to not spend any other money in Inter. He has been doing (to a smaller scale) an Abramovich for decades, and having won UCL meant that he decided to stop financing Inter.

It had nothing to do with Mourinho's spell. In fact, Milito and Eto'o continued being good players for another couple of years.
 
Real Madrid was doing fine in the 90s and is currently doing fine what. Since they build their first galactico? Figo, Zidane and co. They also been managed by Mourinho and are in CL final this year.
 
gajender said:
I have seen this assertion made by several posters but for me this doesn't stand scrutiny at all , Dortmund playing style was quite different under Tuchel from Klopp's , you would be hard pressed to find similarities between Guardiola and Anchelotti as well. Luis Enrique tweaked Barcelona playing style as well and Barcelona had coaches with different style post Guardiola.

If Manchester city has been planning for Guardiola for a long time then they haven't done a good job at all as he needs to completely overhaul their playing personnel to execute his vision.These teams did well because they had better playing personnel than their rivals and that's what we have lacked once we correct that we would become force again.
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I think you are overstating the differences between those managers. Of course they are not exactly the same or have the same philosophy or whatever but again no two managers can ever be that similar. The idea is for Bayern for example, there indeed was a continuation especially from LvG to Guardiola. Barcelona are the same, there are tweaks obviously but there is a continuation of style, admittedly, this has been less so under Enriqué. Tuchel and Klopp are not exactly the same obviously also but you can't say it's the same difference as it was between say LvG, Mourinho and Moyes. In fact, the only top club I can see who has very little playing approach nowadays is Real Madrid. If you want to make a case of collecting a bunch of top class players and letting them do the talking on the pitch regardless of any structure, they are your best shout.

You make the point that those teams simply had better personnel but that's only part of the story. A lot of this so called personnel played in other teams and did not perform so well. How come? Look at Juventus this year and look at how the following players were considered not too long ago; Cuadrado, Khedira, Mandzukic and Higuain. Would these players have made us treble contenders if we'd bought them 2 years ago? It doesn't make them bad obviously but at this top level where a lot of teams have access to some top players, the difference is often made by the power of building and continuation. Unless of course you are Real Madrid which we simply will never be.
 
rpg said:
Real Madrid was doing fine in the 90s and is currently doing fine what. Since they build their first galactico? Figo, Zidane and co. They also been managed by Mourinho and are in CL final this year.
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In the '90s, they won three La Ligas, never back to back and reached only advanced past the 1/4 finals once. Obviously most clubs would like that very much but it's hardly elite. Also the Figo, Zidane period wouldn't even make the top 5 teams since the turn of the century when you look at their achievements.
 
4 years without a league title, Man Utd have already lost its identity.

We are richer than Real Madrid so why cant we behave more like them? Instead of fooling ourselves with the youth product and ended more like Everton.
 
whatwha said:
Surprised at the number of people unable to see OP's point.
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There really is no point. A vast majority of managers don't stay more than a few years and in Mourinho's case, there's actually a decent chance he may be an exception since there's nowhere to go but down once a manager leaves United.
 
gajender said:
I have seen this assertion made by several posters but for me this doesn't stand scrutiny at all , Dortmund playing style was quite different under Tuchel from Klopp's , you would be hard pressed to find similarities between Guardiola and Anchelotti as well. Luis Enrique tweaked Barcelona playing style as well and Barcelona had coaches with different style post Guardiola.

If Manchester city has been planning for Guardiola for a long time then they haven't done a good job at all as he needs to completely overhaul their playing personnel to execute his vision.These teams did well because they had better playing personnel than their rivals and that's what we have lacked once we correct that we would become force again.
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None of the clubs except Bayern has moved from one end of the spectrum i.e. LVG to the other that is Jose now(Bayern also moved nearly in the opposite direction). And it has taken every ounce of man management skill from Ancelotti and the entire first half of Bayern's season for the players to re-adjust to the new system. Also, The difference between the tactics of Tuchel and Klopp was'nt as much as you are trying to portray. Barcelona style has evolved from Pep to Enrique in terms of directness of play, but the essence of it is still there.

You can try to dissect my post as much as you want but it won't take away the attention from the fact that the club's thinking and policies these last few years haven't exactly been shown to be long term. We have won 3 cups, are now back in the CL. Now should be the time to build a solid foundation not only in terms of youth players but also in terms of tactics, policies.

Jose is not exactly known for his long termism, but rather providing instantaneous results in a short time. So, if he doesn't stay longer than his current term, we need to start planning about it keeping the club's essence in mind. I have been an admirer of possession play adopted by Pep, Bielsa, Cruyff and many others but could hardly understand the signing of LVG as a coach in a club such as ours. And then Jose, after nearly 2 years of possession football. These sorts of poor planning is what I don't want to see in the future for us.
 
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I think it's just fans that are conflicted.

Fans want loyalty from players, but are quick to condemn some, even if they work hard.

Fans want to play youth, but complain when the less experienced players don't win consistently.

Fans want to buy established stars but complain that youths don't get a chance.

Fans want to have a manager that thinks long term but after the first consecutive losses start complaining or call for sacking.

Fans want to win trophies and finals but complain when the manager's sets up negative tactics, which win those finals.
 
andersj said:
Following the transfer rumours this year have given me a concern I've never had before. I've realized that the interest of our manager and our club might be in conflict.

Our manager have never managed the same club for more than three years running. He lives in London. It wouldbe a surprise if he is still here in four years. Probably three aswell.

Hence, his concern is maximizing the resources in this time period. From his perspective buying Bale, Perisic and Auba makes sense. From Man Utds, this might give us a big challenge in three year time.

Mourinho have already done this once in his carriere, when he sold Inters most valuable asset, Zlatan, and used the money to buy Eto, Milito and Lucio. Players with few years left. We should not allow him to do the same here.
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Wow.

I'm sorry but there are a few misconceptions here.

Zlatan wanted to leave Inter. Jose was never happy about it. Fortunately, Barca was also happy to let go of Inter. That Zlatan for Etoo deal was one of the best pieces of transfer deals ever and deserves no criticism whatsoever. It's one of the reasons why I often say that Jose is really good when it comes to the transfer market (a second example that often comes to mind is the William Gallas for Ashley Cole deal he did with Arsenal as Chelsea manager) Inter got Etoo PLUS 46 million Euros in exchange for Zlatan.

And about age, Zlatan was 28 then, so was Etoo. It was a 28 yr old for a 28 yr old. We all know that Etoo was instrumental to that treble win.

Again, the two oldest players Jose signed for Inter were Lucio (31) and Milito (30). The average age of the rest were about 25. Sulley Muntari was 23, Sneijder was 25, Pandev was 26, etc. Most of Inter's 'old' players were those who had been there before Jose arrived. Players like Zannetti, Walter Samuel etc.

I think it is unfair to blame Jose for Winter's fall. He won them the treble and left. Yes, many players needed to be retired and so on, but it was the club that messed up the rebuilding process not Jose.

Let's wait and see before we jump to conclusions at United. So far, not so bad. Bailly and Pogba were young, Mikhi was ripe, while Zlatan was old in football age terms, when they were brought in by Jose. And one of the reasons he gave for Zlatan was for the nurturing of 19 yr old Rashford and the other kids in the team. Maybe he's actually thinking both short term and long term.
 
groovyalbert said:
Although I don't necessarily agree with the OP in terms of the players he has mentioned, I think one thing which has been apparent throughout Mourinho's career, and which could rear it's ugly head if the papers are to be believed about our top targets not joining, is that he falls out with boards he believes haven't been backing him fully in the market. It happened most evidently, and twice, at Inter, Madrid, and twice at Chelsea.

If other clubs (ie City and Pep) improve their immediate squad massively, which they are, and others get their top targets in whilst we're left bemoaning the fact Griezmann changed his mind last minute and Neymar and Mbappe were never possible targets, then Mourinho may well be pretty pissed if we don't start well next season.

Now, there's a lot of hyperbole floating around this, granted, and it is only the beginning of June, but I think it's fair to say that after getting us back into the Champions League, Mourinho is expecting at least 1 if not 2 signings from his number 1 priorities list he gave to Ed.
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I have to agree with this. Very good observation. Even his public statement that Ed got his transfer list about two months ago, was a curious one. Did he need to say that? I could not help but think it had undertones and I wondered how Ed felt about the comment.

It was rumoured that what pissed him off in his last season at Chelsea, was the club's refusal to buy the players he wanted during that summer. Chelsea's approach to the transfer market that summer was so lethargic compared to the previous season.
 
InfiniteBoredom said:
People bashing him for Inter's transfers have the intellect of a single cell organism. That team brought the treble and finish 2nd in the Serie A and knock out stage CL despite the FSW's incompetence. Was it his fault the next manager or DoF failed to offload some players who price at the time of his departure is through the roof? The team he built at Chelsea did well for years after his departure, as did Madrid.

The notion that Jose 'destroyed' teams through bad transfer policy is nonsensical. He fell out spectacularly with his club in the past and likely will in the future but there's no tangible evidence that the teams he left were incapable of challenging, as evidenced even with Chelsea this season.
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I don't think there's a conflict of interests here. I do however have doubts about mourinho's reaction if we fail to deliver his targets this summer.

One of the great things about fergie is that he never complained about a shitty summer. He was adamant, at all times, that he has a team capable of competing, even when we all knew it wasn't true. Mourinho on the other hand isn't that kind of manager, come next season, if we manage to get his targets, he'll do really well, but if we fail, he'll make sure we all know about it.

I think if mourinho really wants to be here long term, he'll need to put the club before his ego, other wise conflict with the powers that be will be inevitable, because he won't always get his way.
 
andersj said:
Following the transfer rumours this year have given me a concern I've never had before. I've realized that the interest of our manager and our club might be in conflict.

Our manager have never managed the same club for more than three years running. He lives in London. It wouldbe a surprise if he is still here in four years. Probably three aswell.

Hence, his concern is maximizing the resources in this time period. From his perspective buying Bale, Perisic and Auba makes sense. From Man Utds, this might give us a big challenge in three year time.

Mourinho have already done this once in his carriere, when he sold Inters most valuable asset, Zlatan, and used the money to buy Eto, Milito and Lucio. Players with few years left. We should not allow him to do the same here.
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What?
 
Yeah right why build a team that can provide instant success or a treble if we can spend 10 years developing darling young players to satisfy the obsession of fans with long term strategies ? We know our fans are really patient and never attack the manager or young players when they play bad or not win. Look at the patience Caf has through this season for example, very patient right ? We can wait 10 more years without success to build a young team I am sure of it. :lol:

Seriously man I can't believe what I am reading any more.
 
andersj said:
Hence, his concern is maximizing the resources in this time period. From his perspective buying Bale, Perisic and Auba makes sense. From Man Utds, this might give us a big challenge in three year time.

Mourinho have already done this once in his carriere, when he sold Inters most valuable asset, Zlatan, and used the money to buy Eto, Milito and Lucio. Players with few years left. We should not allow him to do the same here.
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So, you are happy for us to not win anything for the next 2 years, but maybe win something in 3 years?

Football generally doesn't work like that. Winning breeds winners. And winners result in further wins/trophies. This is why the you have the likes of Juve, Madrid, Barca, etc who keep on winning or making CL finals.
Football clubs can't predict what may or may not happen in 3 years. What they can predict with good accuracy is what happens next season.
In 2017, the manager/players always have to think about the next season, maximising their opportunities (and resources), for that season....not what may or may not happen in 3-4 years.

Put it this way, if we win the treble next season (and this is just a hypothetical situation), the following Summer, we will be able to attract the best players as we will have the money, the history and the current No.1 ranking in football. Attracting great players in turn, should result in us maintaining our high status, the following season (and so on).

This guy said it best...

el3mel said:
Yeah right why build a team that can provide instant success or a treble if we can spend 10 years developing darling young players to satisfy the obsession of fans with long term strategies ?
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Jose wants one thing: to win trophies. Frankly, I don't care if he's doing it for himself if that means United win those trophies!
 
andersj said:
Following the transfer rumours this year have given me a concern I've never had before. I've realized that the interest of our manager and our club might be in conflict.

Our manager have never managed the same club for more than three years running. He lives in London. It wouldbe a surprise if he is still here in four years. Probably three aswell.

Hence, his concern is maximizing the resources in this time period. From his perspective buying Bale, Perisic and Auba makes sense. From Man Utds, this might give us a big challenge in three year time.

Mourinho have already done this once in his carriere, when he sold Inters most valuable asset, Zlatan, and used the money to buy Eto, Milito and Lucio. Players with few years left. We should not allow him to do the same here.
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There's sense in what you're saying, but I think we're more powerful financially than Inter was back in that day. While he is targeting players, who are at the age of 27-28-29, who will get in their thirties once he leaves, he is targeting instant success.
It could be playing with fire, if the board is not prepared for his departure. I am not day dreaming that he'll stay here for 10-15 years, besides he clearly mentioned that he wants to manage other teams (speaking to Rio in the Old Trafford tour show a week or two ago). I hope that glass of wine Fergie had with Poch last year were discussions for taking over Mourinho.

End of the day short term target is get United back on it's legs. Quarter finals of CL and challenging for the title is the bare minimum. I think step one was winning League Cup and EL - give a taste of trophy to the squad - something they've forgotten. Step two is bring more quality this summer. Step three is getting the short term target.
Long term - we have to be ready to face life after Mourinho and the club is not allowed to make a mistake in the way after SAF left.
If Griezman and/or Bale come, adding the other younger players (Rashford, Bailly, Pogba, Martial, Shaw, Pereira, Hererra), the next manager should be pretty well set with the team and only minor tweak could be needed - in a way Conte took over Chelsea - Kante, Luiz and Alonso.
Let's just hope the board is prepared with long term plans, because Mourinho's departure could be 18-20 months away.
 
I doubt we'll ever have a manager whose own personal interests conflict as much as when SAF got Moyes the job.
 
Arsenal and Wenger's philosophy is buy young players on the cheap, nurturing them and hopefully win it in the future.

Not us.

Youth play if they are good enough. Not because they are youth but because they were good enough.

SAF had no hesitation to spend money (when he had them).

There is no conflict of interest between Man United and Jose. We both want to win trophies.

Also, he did the opposite of what the OP suggested in his last transfer window so not sure where this came from.
 
andersj said:
I'm not saying Mourinhos to blame. But our board should inform him that this club needs a balance between long and short term success. We can afford to buy Auba or Bale, and probably even Perisic on top. But all three of them would put us in a poor condition soon.
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But then we buy Greizman (if Rashford and Martial aren't super stars) or another great winger. See how it works?

And winning titles with Bale and Auba will make that happen. So it's rather necessary.
 
Doesn't make any sense. Of our 4 signings last year 2 were 23 or under, 1 was 27 so going into prime of his career. Zlatan was the obvious outlier but he was brought in because we were already well stocked with young prospects in Martial and Rashford.

Also The OP is selective in which names he links us with ignoring the likes of Lindelof (22), Keane (24), Dier (23), Lukaku (24) who have been linked much more strongly than Bale or Auba.

SAF also wasn't averse to short-termism either. RVP was hardly one for the future and was definitely bought with the intention of winning #20. Bringing in Larson or Blanc too. You have to match long term ambitions with short term goals in football. If you don't do enough in the present then you wont have a future to preside over.

Until we see some actual signings that fit the agenda described in the post, we can probably relax for the moment.
 
Shark said:
When is the last time we done that?
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Numerous time under SAF. LVG tried to emulate this philosophy but failed because of a lack of quality players; sadly he was victim of his proper transfer strategy, but at least he tried.
 
LoveFootball said:
Numerous time under SAF. LVG tried to emulate this philosophy but failed because of a lack of quality players; sadly he was victim of his proper transfer strategy, but at least he tried.
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SAF had countless superstars throughout his most successful teams. Yes he blended youth here and there, but let's not rewrite history.
 
LoveFootball said:
Numerous time under SAF. LVG tried to emulate this philosophy but failed because of a lack of quality players; sadly he was victim of his proper transfer strategy, but at least he tried.
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What do you mean numerous times? Most of our title winning teams consisted mainly of experienced players. I think the class of 92 clouded peoples memories a bit when it comes to our history with young players.
 
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